Jun 04, 2026 Municipal Authority

MOVE APPROVAL OF THE AGENDA FOR JUNE 4TH, 2026.

THANK YOU ALL.

UM, THE NEXT ITEM HERE IS PUBLIC COMMENT.

THERE DOES NOT SEEM TO BE ANY PUBLIC HERE, SO WE WILL PASS ON, UH, FROM THAT WE TO APPROVE THE AGENDA.

[1. Approve June 4, 2026 Municipal Authority Agenda]

ANY DISCUSSION IS OR SECOND, ANY DISCUSSION? UM, HEARING NONE, WE WILL DEEM THEM APPROVED.

THANK YOU.

THANKS.

A REMINDER, JOHN.

[2. Approve February 5, 2026 Meeting Minutes]

UM, MUNICIPAL AUTHORITY MINUTES FROM OUR LAST MEETING, WHICH WAS FEBRUARY 5TH, UH, 2026, MOVE APPROVAL.

DOES ANYBODY HAVE ANY CORRECTIONS OR OMISSIONS OR COMMENTS? OKAY, IT'S MOVED.

THERE'S A SECOND FOR THE APPROVAL.

SECOND.

THANK YOU.

UH, MOVED AND SECONDED.

UH, ALL IN FAVOR, PLEASE SAY AYE.

AYE.

ANY OPPOSED? ANY ABSTENTIONS? THANK YOU.

UH,

[3. Receive report from Authority Solicitor on the recent Supreme Court stormwater ruling and implications for 2027 budget planning]

MOVING RIGHT ALONG.

WE HAVE ACTION AND DISCUSSION ITEMS. AND THE FIRST ITEM IS TO RECEIVE THE REPORT FROM THE AUTHORITY SOLICITOR ON THE FINALLY HERE, SUPREME COURT RULING ON STORMWATER, UH, IMPLICATIONS FOR, AND IT'S THE IMPLICATIONS FOR THE TOWNSHIP'S 2027 BUDGET.

WE HAVE SMOKE.

IT'S WHITE SMOKE OUT OF THE CHIMNEY.

WE HAVE, WE HAVE A NEW POPE.

UM, NO THANK YOU.

UH, YOU RECALL THAT AT OUR LAST, UH, AUTHORITY MEETING IN FEBRUARY, I PROVIDED A, A RECITATION OF THE, THE PRIOR DECISION FROM THE COMMONWEALTH COURT, UH, RELATED TO THIS ISSUE, WHICH HAD DECIDED THAT THE FEE THAT WAS IMPOSED BY WESTCHESTER BOROUGH, UH, THE COMMONWEALTH COURT HAD CONCLUDED THAT IT WAS A TAX AND NOT A FEE, AND THEREFORE THE NONPROFIT, UH, ENTITIES, TAX EXEMPT ENTITIES SUCH AS WESTCHESTER UNIVERSITY, UH, DID NOT HAVE TO PAY THAT FEE.

UH, THAT WAS BACK IN, I THINK, SEPTEMBER OF 2024.

THIS WAS ARGUED, UM, WELL, WE FINALLY HAVE A DECISION.

UH, THE WHITE SMOKE CAME OUTTA THE CHIMNEY AND ALL THE GUYS IN LITTLE RED HATS CAME OUTTA THE BUILDING.

AND WE HAVE A DECISION.

UM, THE SUPREME COURT ENDED UP AFFIRMING THE COMMONWEALTH COURT'S DECISION ON, UH, SOMEWHAT DIFFERENT GROUNDS.

BASICALLY, THE, THE COMMONWEALTH COURT, UH, HAD LOOKED AT THE SEPARATION AND KIND OF THE DISTANCE BETWEEN THE FEE THAT WAS BEING PAID VERSUS THE BENEFIT THAT WAS BEING RECEIVED.

UM, THE SUPREME COURT TOOK A DIFFERENT APPROACH TO IT.

UM, AND THERE WAS SOME CRITICISM AMONG SOME OF THE OTHER JUSTICES ABOUT, UH, THE FACT THAT THEY KIND OF GONE IN A DIFFERENT DIRECTION THAT HADN'T REALLY BEEN ARGUED BY ANY OF THE PARTIES.

UM, ESSENTIALLY THE COURT AS, UH, CONCLUDED THAT THIS TYPE OF A FEE AND THIS TYPE OF A SERVICE THAT WAS BEING PROVIDED IS KIND OF INHERENTLY A GOVERNMENT SERVICE BECAUSE IT'S BEING DICTATED BY FEDERAL AND STATE MANDATES.

SO THE, THIS WASN'T REALLY A SERVICE THAT WAS BEING PROVIDED BY THE BOROUGH TO SPECIFIC PROPERTY OWNERS, UM, THAT THEY WERE CHOOSING TO PARTICIPATE IN AS, AS YOU WOULD WITH LIKE TRASH, TRASH COLLECTION OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

BUT THIS WAS A, A, A KIND OF IMPOSED REQUIREMENT THAT THE BOROUGH WAS ADDRESSING, AND THEY WERE REQUIRING PROPERTY OWNERS TO PAY FOR IT.

SO THEY WERE SAYING THAT IN, IN THEIR ANALYSIS, ESSENTIALLY, UM, THIS WAS A TAX AND NOT A FEE.

UM, I THINK THAT THE SOMEWHAT PUZZLING AND A LITTLE BIT CONFOUNDING ASPECT OF THIS DECISION IS THE FACT THAT IT WAS A FOUR THREE DECISION.

UM, THREE OF THE JUSTICES WERE IN AGREEMENT COMPLETELY WITH THE DECISION, AND ONE OF THE JUSTICES WROTE A CONCURRING OPINION THAT BASICALLY

[00:05:01]

SAID, WELL, YOU KNOW, I DON'T THINK I WOULD'VE PROBABLY VOTED THE SAME WAY IF YOU DIDN'T HAVE THINGS LIKE TREE PLANTING AND STREET STREET SWEEPING SERVICES THAT ARE REALLY MORE JUST GENERAL BENEFICIAL IMPACTS TO THE BOROUGH RATHER THAN SPECIFIC, UH, STORM WATER IMPROVEMENTS THAT WERE BEING IMPOSED OR THAT WERE BEING INSTALLED FOR THAT WOULD'VE BENEFIT A PROPERTY.

SO THEY WERE SAYING, UM, THIS JUSTICE MONDAY BASICALLY SAID, IF THAT WEREN'T IN THERE, I MAY VOTE A DIFFERENT WAY.

SO THAT KIND OF THROWS A LITTLE BIT OF UNCERTAINTY IN IT BECAUSE IF, IF, IF THAT STUFF HADN'T BEEN IN THE WESTCHESTER BOROUGH PROGRAM, THAT JUSTICE MAY HAVE GONE THE OTHER WAY, AND THE MAJORITY MAY HAVE BEEN ON THE OTHER SIDE SAYING THIS IS A FEE AND NOT A TAX.

SO THIS DECISION WAS VERY LIMITED IN, IN, IN TERMS OF WHAT IT WAS ADDRESSING.

IT WAS ADDRESSING THE SPECIFIC SITUATION WHERE THIS FEE WAS BEING IMPOSED ON A NONPROFIT TAX EXEMPT ENTITY THAT WAS ARGUING, WE DON'T HAVE TO PAY THAT BECAUSE WE'RE TAX EXEMPT, AND THAT QUALIFIES AS A TAX, NOT A FEE.

SO ALL OF THESE OTHER KIND OF SIDE QUESTIONS ARE YET TO BE DETERMINED.

UM, I DO THINK THAT THERE IS STATUTORY SUPPORT FOR THE IDEA THAT WE CAN CONTINUE TO IMPOSE THIS FEE, EVEN IF IT IS CONSIDERED A TAX.

UM, THERE'S SPECIFIC DIRECTION IN BOTH THE SECOND CLASS TOWNSHIP CODE AND THE STORMWATER MANAGEMENT ACT THAT GIVE TOWNSHIPS AND MUNICIPAL AUTHORITIES THE ABILITY TO IMPOSE, UH, A FEE OR A TAX, HOWEVER YOU WANNA CHARACTERIZE IT.

UM, BUT THERE IS, YOU DO HAVE TO BE COGNIZANT OF THE FACT THAT THESE NONPROFIT ENTITIES ARE PROBABLY ALWAYS GOING TO ASSERT THAT THEY DON'T HAVE TO PAY IT BECAUSE OF THIS DECISION.

UNTIL THERE'S SOMETHING THAT IS DETERMINED BY THE COURT THAT SAYS NO, THERE ARE INSTANCES WHERE THEY DO HAVE TO PAY.

UM, THERE WERE A LOT OF ISSUES THAT WERE RAISED BY THE JUSTICES THAT KIND OF SAID, HEY, WELL, YOU KNOW, IF IT IT, WE, WE WOULD SUPPORT FUTURE ARGUMENTS RELATED TO WHETHER OR NOT A, YOU KNOW, BECAUSE THESE ARE IMPOSED REQUIREMENTS FROM THE COMMONWEALTH COURT.

UM, YOU KNOW, MUNICIPALITIES ARE ABLE TO BASICALLY CHARGE THIS TO TAX EXEMPT ENTITIES BECAUSE THERE'S A, THERE'S AN ARGUMENT AROUND, UM, YOU KNOW, THIS IS A DIRECTION FROM THE COMMONWEALTH AND THEY'RE JUST, UH, IMPLEMENTING THAT PROGRAM.

SO THEY CAN'T BE TAX EXEMPT.

UH, THERE ARE A LOT OF SIDE ARGUMENTS THAT THE COURT KIND OF LAID OUT, BUT THEY'RE GONNA TAKE YEARS TO FULLY DEVELOP AND FLESH OUT.

SO UNFORTUNATELY, THERE WASN'T A TON OF DIRECTION THAT CAME DOWN IN THIS, IN THIS OPINION, OTHER THAN THE FACT THAT, UM, THE ONLY REAL CONCRETE THING THAT WE CAN SAY IS THAT TAX EXEMPT ENTITIES PROBABLY DON'T HAVE TO PAY THIS FEE.

IF YOU IMPOSE A FEE THAT'S PRETTY BROAD, THAT INCLUDES STREET SWEEPING, THAT INCLUDES TREE PLANTINGS, BUT THERE IS A POSSIBILITY THAT YOU COULD PUT TOGETHER A PROGRAM THAT WAS MORE TARGETED, THAT WAS SPECIFICALLY LINKED BETWEEN STORMWATER PROJECTS THAT WERE GOING IN THE GROUND AND PROPERTIES THAT HAD WATER RUNNING OFF OF THEM, THAT GOING THROUGH THOSE PROJECTS, YOU COULD MAKE AN ARGUMENT THAT THOSE THAT YOU, THAT THAT IS A FEE.

UM, SO THERE, THERE'S A LOT OF MORE FLESHING OUT THAT NEEDS TO HAPPEN.

SO , THAT'S, THAT'S KIND OF MY SUMMARY OF THE CASE.

I DON'T KNOW, DO YOU GUYS HAVE ANY QUESTIONS OR ANY QUESTIONS FOR ZACH? AND MY QUESTIONS WOULD BE, SO IF IT WERE A FEE, AS YOU SAID, IF WE TOOK A MORE NARROW VIEW THAN WHAT WESTCHESTER BOROUGH DID MM-HMM .

ARE YOU RECOMMENDING OR SAYING THAT IN THOSE CASES THE FEE WOULD ONLY BE APPLICABLE TO THE SPECIFIC PROJECT WATERSHED AREAS THAT WE'RE LOOKING AT? SO IF WE'RE TAKING INTO, IN CONSIDERATION A SPECIFIC GEOGRAPHIC AREA WITHIN THE TOWNSHIP, AND THEN WE NEED TO DETERMINE WHAT, WHERE THE WATER COMES FROM THAT WOULD BE IMPACTED BY THAT PROJECT, THE FEE WOULD ONLY BE TO THOSE PROPERTIES.

THAT IS, THAT IS ONE APPROACH THAT WE COULD TAKE.

UM, IT, IT'S AN OPTION.

THE ENABLING LANGUAGE IN THE SECOND CLASS TOWNSHIP CODE ALLOWS FOR, UM, THE COLLECTION OF A FEE FOR FUNDING.

THE CONSTRUCTION MAINTENANCE AND OPERATION OF STORMWATER MANAGEMENT FACILITY SYSTEMS AND MANAGEMENT PLANS, UH, MAY ASSESS REASONABLE UNIFORM FEES BASED IN WHOLE, OR IN PART ON THE CHARACTERISTICS OF THE PROPERTY BENEFITED BY THE FACILITIES, SYSTEMS AND MANAGEMENT PLANS.

SO I THINK THAT THAT YOU, YOU COULDN'T POSE A FEE THAT JUST APPLIES TO IMPERVIOUS COVERAGE ON EVERY LOT AS I THINK HAS BEEN PROPOSED AND IS KIND OF THE MOST COMMON WAY.

THAT'S THE WAY THEY WERE DOING IT IN WESTCHESTER.

THEN THEY OBVIOUSLY HAD A VARI VARIOUS LEVELS OF EXEMPTIONS FOR IF YOU WERE, IF YOU HAD STORMWATER FACILITIES ON YOUR PROPERTY, YOU COULD, YOU COULD GET REDUCTIONS IN THAT FEE.

UM, BUT I THINK THAT THERE ALSO IS A, A WAY THAT, YOU KNOW, YOU

[00:10:01]

ALMOST LOOK AT IT SIMILAR TO LIKE A TRAFFIC IMPACT FEE WHERE THERE ARE SPECIFIC ZONES LIKE WATERSHEDS THAT MIGHT BE FLOWING THROUGH A CULVERT OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

YOU FIGURE OUT HOW THAT'S BEING DONE AND YOU, YOU CAN KIND OF ARRANGE PROJECTS BASED ON THAT AND THEN CHARGE PROPERTIES WITHIN THAT WATERSHED MAYBE.

I DON'T KNOW THAT THAT'S JUST AN APPROACH.

I KNOW I'VE, I'VE HAD SOME OFFLINE CONVERSATIONS WITH JEN ABOUT LIKE, HEY, IS THAT EVEN FEASIBLE OR POSSIBLE WITH, YOU KNOW, WHAT THE TOWNSHIP'S LOOKING TO DO? WELL, MY FOLLOW UP THEN WOULD BE, JEN, HOW COMMON IS IT THAT IN A PROJECT YOU DETERMINE WHAT THE WATERSHED IS? IS THAT, DOES THAT HAPPEN A HUNDRED PERCENT OF THE TIME? 10% OF THE TIME, OR 50% OF THE TIME? WELL OVER 50%.

THERE'S ALWAYS AN ANALYSIS OF THE DRAINAGE AREA, GETTING TO THE CULVERT, MAKING SURE THERE'S CAPACITY.

ALTHOUGH WE TAKE A LOT OF HISTORICAL DATA.

I'LL TALK TO TOWNSHIP STAFF AND PUBLIC WORKS AND FIND OUT IF THERE'S PARTICULAR INSTANCES OF A LOT OF FLOODING IN THIS AREA.

NO FLOODING IN THIS AREA.

UM, I'M GONNA GIVE YOU A KEY EXAMPLE IS A CULVERT IN WALNUT STREET THAT WE'RE GONNA BE REPLACING AS PART OF THE WALNUT STREET PROJECT.

AND THAT CULVERT RECEIVES RUNOFF FROM THE REGIONAL BASIN THAT'S BELOW THE MEADOWS OUT THERE.

SO WHEN THAT CULVERT WAS INSTALLED, THAT REGIONAL BASIN WAS NOT IN EXISTENCE.

SO IT WAS GETTING A LOT MORE RUNOFF THAN IT CURRENTLY IS BECAUSE NOW THERE'S A BASIN, BUT WE'RE NOT GONNA REDUCE IT.

BUT IN THAT INSTANCE, I'M NOT DOING A DRAINAGE AREA ANALYSIS BECAUSE I ALREADY KNOW IT HAS EXCESS CAPACITY.

BECAUSE THAT REGIONAL BASIN WAS INSTALLED.

BUT A A DRAINAGE AREA ANALYSIS IS MORE TYPICAL THAN NOT .

AND THEN BACK TO THE SOLICITOR, WHAT TOWNSHIPS TYPICALLY HAVE MAXIMUM MILLAGE THAT THEY CAN TAX AT, CORRECT? CORRECT.

FOR PROPERTY TAXES.

THIS, THIS IS SEPARATE AND APART FROM PROPERTY TAXES.

I UNDERSTAND, I UNDERSTAND.

I'M GONNA GET TO THAT .

SO IF THIS IS A TAX, IS THIS NOW EXPANDING THAT ENVELOPE? IS IT ASIDE FROM THAT ENVELOPE WHAT THE MILLAGE RATE COULD BE? IT'S, IT WOULD BE AN ADDITION.

IT WOULD BE AN ADDITIONAL OKAY.

ON TOP OF THE TYPICAL PROPERTY TAX.

I MEAN, YOU, YOU HAVE DIFFERENT, UM, KIND OF CATEGORIES THAT TAXES CAN GO INTO.

YOU HAVE LIKE AN EMERGENCY SERVICES TAX THAT I BELIEVE WAS JUST IMPLEMENTED RECENTLY.

UM, YOU HAVE PROPERTY TAXES AND, AND THOSE MILLAGE LIMITS ARE PROPERTY TAXES.

SO I DON'T THINK THAT THIS WOULD PUSH THE TOWNSHIP.

IT, IT DOESN'T REALLY AFFECT THAT MILLAGE LIMIT.

TO RUN OFF FROM DEVELOPED PROPERTIES BECOMES MAKING THE CHARGE ATTACKS.

AND THEN THAT'S MY, THAT'S MY WHAT I'VE, FROM WHAT I'VE REVIEWED, I DON'T BELIEVE THAT'S THE CASE.

AND THEN THE FUNDS RECEIVE FROM THIS TAX, DO THEY GO RIGHT INTO THE GENERAL FUND? OR ARE THEY IN A SEPARATE, WOULD THEY BE IN A SEPARATE STORMWATER FUND? IT'D BE A STORMWATER MANAGEMENT FUND.

IT WOULD, YEAH.

IT WOULD HAVE TO BE, BECAUSE THE, THE STATUTE, THE SECOND, THE SECOND CLASS TOWNSHIP CODE IS VERY LIMITED IN IT.

IT SPECIFIES EXACTLY WHAT YOU CAN SPEND THOSE FUNDS ON.

SO I WOULD DEFINITELY NOT RECOMMEND JUST PUTTING IN THE GENERAL FUND AND USING IT FOR WHATEVER.

UM, I THINK THAT THAT'S PROBABLY A A, YOU'RE GONNA GET SUED .

RIGHT? I, I JUST, I WANT, I WANT EVERYBODY TO UNDERSTAND THAT THE FEES COLLECTED HERE, IF WE GO IN THIS DIRECTION, CAN'T BE USED FOR, YOU KNOW, ANYTHING OTHER THAN THE PROJECTS THAT WE'VE ESTABLISHED IN THE BUDGET FOR THE STORMWATER MM-HMM .

THANK YOU MR. CHAIRMAN.

UH, ANY OTHER QUESTIONS FOR ZACH? YEAH, I WAS GONNA ASK, WHAT ABOUT THE TREES THING? I MEAN, IF YOU COULD CLARIFY THAT FOR ME.

SURE.

UM, LEMME OPEN UP JUDGE JUSTICE MONDAY'S.

SO OBVIOUSLY THE, THE JUSTICES ARE ALWAYS VERY, UM, SPECIFIC AND HOW THEY WORD THINGS, YOU KNOW, THEY DON'T, THEY CAN ONLY REALLY ADDRESS THE CASE THAT'S IN FRONT OF THEM.

THEY DON'T OFTEN LIKE TO OPINE ON LIKE, WELL, YOU KNOW, IF THIS FACT WERE TO CHANGE OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT, LIKE, I MIGHT CONSIDER A DIFFERENT OUTCOME.

UM, SO THIS IS WHAT JUSTICE MONEY SAID.

I JOINED THE MAJORITY IN THE PRESENT CIRCUMSTANCES WHERE THE PROCEEDS OF THE BOROUGH'S STORMWATER CHARGE ARE APPLIED TO PROJECTS REMOTE FROM THE UNIVERSITY, SUCH AS TREE PLANTING, STREET SWEEPING REGRADING OF VALLEYS AND RAIN GARDEN INSTALLATIONS AND CURB EXTENSIONS TO INCREASE FILTRATION AND SLOW RUNOFF.

UM, SUCH PROJECTS SERVE THE INTEREST OF THE COMMUNITY AS A WHOLE, BUT THEY'RE NOT ITEMS OF SPECIFIC VALUE TO THAT THE BOROUGH PROVIDES TO THE UNIVERSITY IN RETURN FOR THE MONEY CHARGED, THE MORE A STORMWATER CHARGE IS USED FOR GENERAL PROJECTS TO ADDRESS ENVIRONMENTAL ISSUES, COMMUNITY BEAUTIFICATION OR HAZARDS IN PUBLIC SPA PLACES, THE THINNER, THE NEXUS

[00:15:01]

SO AGAIN, THIS IS ONLY RELATED TO THIS DISTINCTION OF WHETHER IT'S A FEE OR A TAX AND WHETHER, UH, TAX EXEMPT ENTITIES HAVE TO PAY.

SO THOSE PROJECTS CAN STILL BE INCLUDED IN YOUR FEE.

YOU JUST HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT IT, THEY WOULDN'T BE, THAT, THAT FEE WOULDN'T NEED TO BE PAID BY TAX EXEMPT ENTITIES.

WELL, IT SEEMS AS THOUGH THE JUSTICE IN THAT CASE WAS LIKE WE TALKED ABOUT A PROJECT LAST MEETING WHERE WE WERE PLANTING SOME, SOME, YEAH.

THE STREET BANK RESTORATION ON GREENWOOD AVENUE.

RIGHT? WHERE IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE REFERRING TO? WE WERE PLANTING SOME GRASSES.

THE LIVE STAKES.

YES.

THE LIVE STAKES EVERY THREE FEET IN A TRIANGLE.

YOU RIGHT.

IT'S A WHOLE, THERE'S A LOT OF THEM.

SO I MEAN, IT DOESN'T, WE'RE NOT PLANTING TREES FOR, IN THAT IF I WAS ARGUING FOR WESTCHESTER, WE'RE NOT PLANTING TREES FOR BEAUTIFICATION, WE'RE PLANTING TREES AND, AND HAVE CURB IMPROVEMENTS TO HELP CONTROL THE WATER RUNOFF.

SO, YOU KNOW, IT'S NOT, I I DISAGREE WITH THE JUSTICE IN THAT CASE BECAUSE IT'S PART OF THE PROJECT.

AND THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT THE DISSENTING OPINIONS SAID.

THEY BASICALLY SAID, HEY, ALL OF THIS STUFF, THE STREET SWEEPING, THE TREE PLANTING, ALL THAT STUFF LIKE THAT, ALL, IT'S A HOLISTIC PROGRAM THAT'S APPLIED.

THAT'S WHY MUNICIPALITIES PURSUE IT.

BUT THE, THE, THIS ONE JUSTICE JUST BASICALLY SAID, I, I DON'T NECESSARILY BUY INTO THAT.

AND I FEEL LIKE THESE ARE MORE BEAUTIFICATION AND COMMUNITY BETTERMENT PROJECTS DOESN'T MEAN YOU CAN'T USE THE FEE FOR THOSE.

IT'S JUST CONSIDERED A TAX AND TAX EXEMPT ENTITIES DON'T HAVE TO PAY.

SO ZACH, IF WE WERE TO DESIGNATE THIS AS A TAX, WE COULD STILL USE THAT, USE THE TAX FOR THOSE PURPOSES.

I I DO NOT EVEN KNOW IF I WOULD RECOMMEND CHARACTERIZING IT DIRECTLY AS A TAX BECAUSE THE, THE ENABLING STATUTES THAT WE RELY ON CALL IT A FEE.

AND I, I THINK THAT YOU WOULD CALL IT A FEE, AND IT, YOU WOULD JUST HAVE TO RECOGNIZE THAT IT WOULD BE, IT WOULD BE CHARACTERIZED AS A TAX BY THE COURTS.

IF WE ATTEMPTED TO IMPOSE IT ON TAX EXEMPT ENTITIES.

THEY WOULD SAY, NO, WE DON'T HAVE TO PAY IT BECAUSE WE'RE TAX EXEMPT AND IT'S A TAX, BUT CALLING IT A FEE VERSUS A TAX.

I UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU'VE SAID.

ME AS A HOMEOWNER, WILL THAT IMPACT MY ABILITY TO CLAIM IT ON MY INCOME TAXES AS A RESIDENTIAL TAX VERSUS A FEE? IT'S A GOOD QUESTION.

UM, I, I WOULD'VE TO LOOK INTO THAT MORE.

I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE TAX IMPLICATIONS ARE.

I'M NOT A, I'M NOT A TAX ATTORNEY.

YOU MEAN AS FAR AS DEDUCTING THAT? YEAH, LIKE DEDUCTIONS, RIGHT.

YOU CAN DEDUCT YOUR, YOU KNOW, YOU COULD DEDUCT YOUR PROPERTY TAXES.

AND IF IT'S A LOCAL TAX, THEN THAT CAN GET INCLUDED IN MY ITEMIZED DEDUCTIONS.

BUT IF IT'S A FEE, FEES ARE NOT ELIGIBLE TO BE INCLUDED.

SO THE JUSTICE HAS NEVER DEFINED THIS AS A REAL ESTATE TAX OR SOME OTHER TAX THEY DIDN'T NO, IT'S DEFINITELY NOT A REAL ESTATE TAX.

UM, IT WAS JUST THE CHARACTERIZATION OF A TAX VERSUS A FEE FOR THE PURPOSES OF A TAX EXEMPT ENTITY, BUT A TAX FOR THE ONLY ISSUE THAT THEY DEALT.

BUT TEXT FOR US IS MILLAGE IS EITHER MILLAGE BASED OR, OR, UM, IS, UM, INCOME BASED MM-HMM .

THAT, THAT'S JUST WAS TRYING TO THINK HOW YOU WOULD FORMULATE THIS INTO A BUDGET DOCUMENT.

SO YEAH.

SO, SO MY QUESTION IS, IF WE LEFT THOSE OTHER THINGS OUT, THE TREES, THE CURB, THE WHATEVER, COULD THAT THEN BE A LEGITIMATE FEE TO, UM, TAX EXEMPT PROPERTIES? WELL, WELL, WE COULD, UM, IMPOSE IT AND, AND GO BACK TO COURT, SEND 'EM A BILL AND THEY CAN SUE US, AND THEN WE CAN GO UP INTO A COURT AND WE CAN HAVE A BIG ARGUMENT ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT THAT QUALIFIES AS A TAXER FEE AND WHETHER THEY HAVE TO PAY FOR IT.

IMPOSE A MORE TARGETED, UH, LIKE INFRASTRUCTURE BASED PROGRAM THAT'S LINKED BETWEEN WATER THAT'S FLOWING OFF OF A PROPERTY AND THAT'S FLOWING THROUGH A CULVERT.

AND, YOU KNOW, THAT THAT'S THE PROBLEM IS THAT, THAT YOU HAVE THESE DECISIONS THAT TAKE AN ARGUMENT SO FAR, BUT DON'T NECESSARILY ADDRESS SOME OF THE ANCILLARY ISSUES.

AND THEN IT'S LIKE, OKAY, WELL WHEN DO WE GET THE ANSWERS TO THOSE OTHER QUESTIONS? YOU HAD THAT IN THAT WA IN THE WASHINGTON TOWNSHIP CASE WHERE, UM, GOVERNOR CORBETT'S, UM, WHERE HE REMOVES ZONING CONTROL OVER OIL AND GAS DRILLING FROM MUNICIPALITIES.

AND THEN THE SUPREME COURT ISSUED A DECISION.

IT WAS A VERY SIMILAR SITUATION WHERE YOU HAD A SOMEWHAT SPLIT MAJORITY.

IT WASN'T TOTALLY CLEAR WHAT PARTS WERE ENFORCEABLE, WEREN'T ENFORCEABLE.

LIKE, IT, IT, IT KIND OF LEAVES A MUDDLED MESS WHEN YOU CAN'T HAVE A SOLID MAJORITY OF THE COURT MAKING A DECISION AND ADDRESSING THESE ISSUES.

SO, AND THE COURT'S VERY SPECIFIC.

WE'RE ONLY ADDRESSING THIS SPECIFIC ISSUE AND WE'RE NOT GIVING GUIDANCE ON THESE OTHER THINGS, WHICH CAN BE DEVELOPED THROUGH FURTHER LITIGATION.

SO , IT'S LIKE, DO WE WANT TO BE THE GUINEA PIG THAT TRIES TO DO THAT? WE TRY AND, AND

[00:20:01]

DO WE TRY AND DO THAT? AND THEN WE TRY AND SEND THE BILL TO A TAX EXEMPT ENTITY AND WE, WE SEE WHERE WE LAND.

I DON'T KNOW, .

UM, BUT IT, IT, YOU KNOW, IT IT, THAT'S A HARD THING FOR TAXPAYERS AND FOR A MUNICIPALITY TO, TO TAKE ON BECAUSE IT, IT'S EXPENSIVE AND IT'S TIME CONSUMING.

AND, AND ULTIMATELY THE AMOUNT OF MONEY THAT YOU'RE PROBABLY IMPOSING ON THE FEE ISN'T THAT GRAND TO, YOU KNOW, NECESSITATE ALL THOSE LEGAL COSTS.

UH, SO I GUESS THE QUESTION HERE IS, UH, WHERE DO WE GO FROM HERE? ZACH OR TIM OR WHOEVER WANTS TO TAKE A STAB AT IT? WELL, OBVIOUSLY I CAN'T BELIEVE WE'RE IN JUNE ALREADY, SO I ALREADY, I HAVE THE 2 20, 27 BUDGET ON MY MIND AND MM-HMM .

OUR, OUR, UM, MS FOUR PROJECTS ARE NOT GOING, OR THE EXPENSE IN THOSE PROJECTS AREN'T GOING DOWN THERE.

THEY'RE GOING, THEY'RE GOING UP.

AND, UH, I THINK WE THERE WILL BE A DELAY IN THOSE.

YEAH, I'LL TALK ABOUT THAT.

UM, I JUST THOUGHT IT WOULD BE, UH, IF YOU RECALL WHEN WE TALKED ABOUT THIS BEFORE, UM, WHEN WE, BEFORE THE WHOLE WESTCHESTER THING CAME OUT, WE WERE TALKING ABOUT DO WE GO IN THE FEED DIRECTION OR, OR THE TAX DIRECTION.

AND I, I THINK BRIAN, MY BRIAN AT THE TIME DID A ANALYSIS OF HOW MANY, UM, TAX EXEMPT PROPERTIES THERE ARE IN THE TOWNSHIP.

AND, YOU KNOW, THERE ARE SOME TOWNS THAT HAVE A, A GREATER PERCENTAGE OF TAX EXEMPT PARCELS.

LIKE WE DON'T HAVE A WESTCHESTER UNIVERSITY IN OUR, IN OUR BOROUGH OR A LOT OF STATE GAME LANDS OR STUFF.

BUT I THINK, UH, BRIAN'S CALCULATION IS THAT 1% OF ALL OF OUR TAXABLE OF ALL OF OUR PARCELS ARE TAX EXEMPT.

SO WE MAY BE, WE, AT THE END OF THE DAY, WE MIGHT BE TALKING ABOUT A SMALL FEW PEOPLE OF A LOT OF THOSE WOULD BE SOME OF OUR, UM, MEGACHURCHES IN, IN THE, IN, IN TOWN AND MAYBE SOME OTHER, I THINK, JEN, I REMEMBER WHEN WE DID THE IMPERVIOUS MAP, THERE'S A LOT OF PINDO TRAILS AND EASEMENTS THAT MADE UP SOME OF THAT.

WELL, MR. CHAIRMAN, I'D LIKE, I I SAID THAT I WOULD LIKE TO GET TOGETHER.

THERE WAS AN EMAIL THAT SAID, YEAH, WE NEVER DID, WE NEVER DID TRY TO GET THAT GROUP TOGETHER.

I WAS HOPING NOW THAT THE, THE, THE LEGISLATION'S FINALIZED AND THE BUDGET SEASON'S GONNA BE ON US.

I'D LIKE TO, BEFORE WE, YEAH, I'D LIKE TO WORK WITH THE ADMINISTRATION AND COME BACK WITH SOME SCENARIOS FOR THE BOARD TO CONSIDER.

UM, SORRY, I WASN'T ABLE TO MAKE THE LAST MEETING, BUT I DID SEE IN THE MINUTES, UM, A COMMENT ABOUT, UM, YOU KNOW, SEEING WHAT OTHER PEOPLE ARE DOING, UM, AND TALKING TO OTHER MUNICIPALITIES THAT ARE DOING IT OR AUTHORITIES THAT ARE DOING IT.

HAVE WE TALKED TO ANYBODY OR HAD ANYBODY, AND I ASKED THAT BECAUSE, UM, I, I WORK WITH THE WARRINGTON MUNICIPAL, OR I'M SORRY, WAR MR. MUNICIPAL AUTHORITY WHO, UM, AND I JUST TALKED TO THE ASSISTANT EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR JUST THE OTHER DAY AND BROUGHT UP THAT, YOU KNOW, WE WERE HAVING THIS MEETING TONIGHT AND SAID, HE IS MORE THAN WELCOME TO, OR MORE THAN HAPPY TO COME OUT AND TALK TO US.

UM, THEY'VE BEEN VERY SUCCESSFUL THE LAST FEW YEARS.

VERY FEW, UM, YOU KNOW, NOT MUCH PUSHBACK AT ALL FROM MM-HMM .

DID THEY DO A TAX OR A FEE OR WHAT, WHAT DID THEY FEE? THEY DID, THEY DID DO A FEE.

I HECK, I HAVE A QUESTION FOR THE TOWNS THAT WENT AHEAD AND PUT THIS FEE IN PLACE.

LIKE, WHAT IS WESTCHESTER DOING? UH, WHAT, WHAT, WHAT, WHAT ARE, WHAT ARE SOME OF THE, THERE'S SEVERAL, 'CAUSE WHEN WE PUT THIS FEE IN PLACE, WE DID LOOK INTO LIKE DAIRY TOWNSHIP, WESTCHESTER OR SOME OTHER TANZA, AND THESE PEOPLE HAD A FEE.

I'M JUST CURIOUS HOW THEY'RE REACTING, UM, OR HOW THEY'RE DEALING WITH THIS.

ARE THEY GONNA REFUND THAT FEE OF THE TAX EXEMPTS THAT THEY, OR ARE THEY GONNA CONTINUE? YEAH, I, I'M, I'M NOT REALLY SURE HOW THEY'VE BEEN DOING THAT.

I MEAN, I WOULD ASSUME THAT TAX EXEMPT ENTITIES, AFTER THIS CASE WAS FILED AND THE COMMONWEALTH COURT DECISION CAME DOWN, THEY PROBABLY SAID, WELL, WE'RE NOT PAYING THIS OR GET, OR ARE THEY GONNA ASK FOR A REFUND OR YEAH, THEY MIGHT ASK FOR A REFUND.

I MEAN, THE FACT THAT WE DON'T HAVE A PROGRAM, WE DON'T REALLY HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT THAT SCENARIO.

RIGHT? MM-HMM .

UM, BUT, YOU KNOW, I, I, THE COURT DIDN'T SAY THAT THESE PROGRAMS ARE INVALID OR, YOU KNOW, NOT APPROPRIATE FOR TOWNSHIPS TO IMPOSE, FOR MUNICIPALITIES TO IMPOSE.

THEY JUST SAID THAT TAXES EXEMPT ENTITIES DON'T HAVE TO PAY IT.

UM, SO, YOU KNOW, I, I ASSUME I, I DON'T KNOW, WESTCHESTER MAY TWEAK ITS PLAN.

I'VE ALSO HEARD, UM, I GUESS AFTER ALL THESE DECISIONS, YOU HEAR RUMBLINGS THAT THERE'S GONNA BE SOMETHING DONE ON THE STATE LEVEL AND, YOU KNOW, WHO KNOWS .

UM, BUT I'VE HEARD RUMBLINGS THAT THERE, THERE MAY BE SOME, SOME THOUGHTS ABOUT DOING SOME SORT OF LEGISLATION AROUND THIS.

I DON'T KNOW IF THAT'S GONNA GO ANYWHERE.

THIS TYPE OF FEE, I THINK THAT WE CAN CERTAINLY, YOU KNOW, EXPLORE THAT AND LOOK INTO IT AND, AND COME UP WITH SOME SORT OF A DRAFT NO LEGAL JEOPARDY THAT YOU THINK OF AT THIS POINT.

UM, I MEAN, I, I THINK THAT IF THE TOWNSHIP WANTS TO MOVE FORWARD WITH IMPOSING

[00:25:01]

OR, SORRY, WHAT WAS THAT? NO, NO LEGAL JEOPARDY THAT YOU'RE CONCERNED OF AT THIS POINT? NO, I MEAN, THERE'S SOLID STATUTORY AUTHORITY FOR IMPOSING A FEE.

IT JUST COMES DOWN TO WHO DOES IT APPLY TO, RIGHT.

THAT WAS, THAT WAS THE REAL DISTINCTION.

AND, AND AS YOU SAID, THE TOWNSHIP HAS LIMITED PROPERTIES THAT ARE GONNA KIND OF BE IN THAT AMBIGUOUS GRAY AREA.

CHURCHES, UM, YOU KNOW, STATE OWNED PROPERTIES, LAND, THINGS LIKE THAT.

THINGS LIKE THAT.

UH, COUNTY OWNED LAND.

UM, YOU KNOW, I, I THINK THAT TO THE EXTENT IT'S SUCH A LOW PERCENTAGE, IT PROBABLY MAKES SENSE TO, TO, YOU KNOW, MOVE FORWARD WITH LOOKING INTO IMPLEMENTING SOME SORT OF A PROGRAM.

HEY, BILL, UM, I DID KNOW YOU HAD DEALINGS WITH THE WARMINSTER 'CAUSE WHEN I WAS IN WARRINGTON, UH, IF I RECALL THEIR AUTHORITY, DIDN'T THE TOWNSHIP OF WHERE MR. UM, OR DID THE, DID THE AUTHORITY THERE SELL OR BUY SOME OF THE STORM WATER STUFF FROM THE TOWNSHIP? THEY HAD SOME TYPE OF ARRANGEMENT, YES.

YEAH, THE, I BELIEVE THE AUTHORITY BOUGHT IT FROM THE TOWNSHIP, OR WAS GIFTED IT FROM THE TOWNSHIP .

THERE WAS SOMETHING THAT SOME, SOMETHING UNUSUAL THERE.

I DIDN'T KNOW.

SOUNDS LIKE IT'S NOT GONNA BE REALLY CLEAR FOR QUITE A WHILE AND MAYBE NEVER.

UM, SO I GUESS THE TOWNSHIP JUST HAS TO DECIDE AT SOME POINT, BUT I, I DO, WE DO HAVE STORMWATER COSTS AND I'D LIKE TO TRY TO SOMEHOW CAPTURE SOME OF THESE IN THE 2027 BUDGET.

I'LL TAKE A LEAP OF FAITH THAT WE WON'T GET SUED.

SO, YEAH.

MR. CHAIRMAN, I'D LIKE TO JUST, UH, TO SORT OF WRAP IT UP, YOU KNOW, CERTAINLY IF BILL WANTS TO JOIN ME IN A WORKING SESSION WITH THE ADMINISTRATION, WE COULD DO THAT, COME BACK AT OUR NEXT MEETING WITH VARIOUS PROPOSALS, UH, AND FINANCIAL IMPACT, UH, FOR THE RESIDENTS AND FOR THE TOWNSHIP.

LOOKING AT IT BOTH WAYS.

UH, AND THEN THE BOARD OF SUPERVISORS HAS TO, YEAH, I WAS GONNA SAY THE BOARD IS DOING MORE WORKSHOPS NOW, SO I'M THINKING ONCE WE GET OUR, OUR I'S DOTTED ON SOME PROPOSALS, LET'S PUT THIS ON A WORKSHOP.

AGENDA.

UH, JOHN, THANK YOU FOR VOLUNTEERING TO DO THAT.

I KNOW YOU VOLUNTEERED AT THAT LAST MEETING AS WELL, AND, AND WE ALSO TALKED ABOUT WHETHER ANYBODY ELSE ON THE AUTHORITY WANTS TO BE PART OF THAT PROCESS.

WE SHOULD PROBABLY TO KEEP THIS AS A WORKING GROUP, TRY TO KEEP IT TO A NON QUORUM, SO, RIGHT.

TO YOU AND BILL YOU WON EVEN DO THAT THEN, BILL? ABSOLUTELY.

SOUNDS LIKE, SOUNDS WE GOT AWAY.

SOUNDS LIKE WE HAVE A WAY TO, TO MOVE FORWARD THEN.

THANK YOU, MR. CHAIRMAN.

TIM, WAS THERE ANYTHING ELSE ON, ON THAT AT ALL, OR, OR IS ZACH, ANYTHING ELSE YOU WANNA SAY? NO, THERE'S, I'LL SOUND OFF ON SOMETHING ELSE.

UM, UH, THERE'S A REGIONAL COMPONENT THAT WE MIGHT WANNA LOOK AT, BUT DOWN THE ROAD, BUT I'LL TALK TO YOU ABOUT, ABOUT THAT.

UM, NEXT ITEM IS A RECAP FROM OUR ENGINEER ON PAST STORM WATER MAPPING, DESIGN WORK AND SO FORTH.

I GUESS WE WILL MOVE ON THEN.

[4. Receive recap from Municipal Authority Engineer on past stormwater mapping design work that was done in preparation for the implementation of a stormwater fee and what modifications will need to be performed to ensure compliance with the PA Supreme Court ruling]

AND AS THE AGENDA ITEM SAYS, SO JEN OR MIKE, WHO'S GONNA DO THAT, I'M GONNA DO THAT.

WHAT'S CALLED AN EQUIVALENT RESIDENTIAL UNIT.

I'M GONNA GET A LITTLE TECHNICAL ON YOU TO START.

JUST SOME NUMBERS.

I HAVE SOME OF THE INFORMATION THAT YOU MIGHT BE INTERESTED IN, AND YOU'LL BE ABLE TO REVIEW THIS MORE IN DEPTH THAT'S IN YOUR PACKET.

UM, WE DID MAPPING BACK IN 2021 THERE, UM, IT'S BASED ON D-V-R-P-C, UH, IMPERVIOUS COVERAGE FROM 2015.

HOWEVER, WE DID USE, UH, GOOGLE AERIAL PHOTOGRAPHS DATED 2020 TO SUPPLEMENT IT.

UM, DO YOU MIND PULLING UP THAT LINK JUST TO SHOW, SO PART OF MY FOUR IS WHAT HAVE WE DONE AND WHAT WOULD HAVE TO BE MODIFIED? SO I WOULD, IF YOU COULD ZOOM INTO LIKE THE TOWNSHIP PROPERTY, BUT GO TO THE RIVER CROSS PROPERTIES RIGHT BEHIND THE FIRE STATION.

UM, WE SHOULD PROBABLY UPDATE THIS IMPERVIOUS CALCULATION MAP.

BUT WHAT WE DID WAS EVERY PARCEL IN THE TOWNSHIP IS LABELED.

AND IF YOU GO TO, UH, PAGE TWO OF THIS, IT'S FIGURE ONE, ALL THE PROPERTIES IN THE TOWNSHIP WERE CLASSIFIED.

SO YOU HAVE GOVERNMENT, COMMERCIAL, INDUSTRIAL, INSTITUTIONAL, ET CETERA, ET CETERA.

WHAT WE DID WAS WE CALCULATED ALL OF THE IMPERVIOUS COVERAGE THAT WAS ON EVERY PROPERTY IN THE TOWNSHIP.

WE AVERAGED THE IMPERVIOUS COVERAGE FOR ALL THE SINGLE FAMILY HOMES AND CAME UP WITH A NUMBER.

IT'S ABOUT 4,000 SQUARE FEET IS THE AVERAGE IMPERVIOUS COVERAGE THAT EVERY HOMEOWNER WOULD HAVE.

UM, YOU CAN CLICK ON ANY OF THOSE LITTLE PURPLE DOTS OR PURPLE ZONES AND IT'LL GIVE YOU THE, UM, COVERAGE FOR THAT PARTICULAR LOT.

UM, QUEST OF COURSE, IS DIFFERENT BECAUSE THAT'S BEEN DEMOED.

UM, BUT I THINK THEIR FEE WAS GONNA BE ABOUT 4,000.

BUT I, I WANNA SKIP THEM FOR THE MOMENT BECAUSE THERE'S NOT A LOT OF PROPERTIES IN THE TOWNSHIP THAT ARE, THAT ARE THAT LARGE.

SO WE CAME UP WITH

[00:30:01]

AND THEN WE IMPLEMENTED A TIER SYSTEM JUST FOR EASE OF BILLING.

AND I'M GONNA TELL YOU THAT BASED ON ALL OF THESE NUMBERS THAT WE'VE DONE, THE FEE FOR ONE ERU $48.

SO IT'S NOT SUBSTANTIAL FOR A HOMEOWNER.

WHAT WE ALSO DID WAS ANY PROPERTIES, ANY RESIDENTIAL PROPERTIES THAT WOULD HAVE LESS THAN 500 SQUARE FEET OF IMPERVIOUS COVERAGE, THEY WOULD HAVE NO FEE WHATSOEVER.

THERE IS A TIER THAT WOULD PAY HALF OF THE $48, SO $24 ANNUAL FEE.

AND THE NUMBERS THAT WE RAN THERE ARE 8,424 PROPERTIES THAT WE CALCULATED IN THE TOWNSHIP.

OF THOSE 93% ARE EITHER THE HALF FEE ONE TIMES FEE, OR TWO TIMES FEE.

SO 93% OF THE PROPERTIES IN THIS TOWNSHIP, NONE OF THOSE WOULD BE PAYING MORE THAN $104 ANNUALLY.

UM, I DO HAVE THE BREAKDOWN, YOU KNOW, FOR THE HALF AND, AND ET CETERA THAT WE'RE INTERESTED IN.

BUT, BUT TO BRING THIS UP TO SPEED, WE WOULD WANNA GO BACK AND USE MORE RECENT GOOGLE MAPPING, UM, CAPTURE ADDITIONS THAT HAVE BEEN PUT ON.

THERE'S BEEN A LOT OF NEW CONSTRUCTION, UM, SINCE THEN.

THERE'S A LOT, BEEN A LOT OF RESIDENTIAL DEVELOPMENT IN THIS TOWNSHIP SINCE 2020.

WE SHOULD PROBABLY MAKE SOME MINOR TWEAKS IN ADJUSTMENTS IN THAT.

BUT THAT'S HOW, THAT'S WHAT WE'VE DONE TO DATE.

THAT'S HOW WE ESTABLISHED A BALLPARK FEE TO START WITH.

I BELIEVE TIM HAD SENT IT OUT IN A NEWSLETTER.

UM, AND QUESTIONS CAME BACK BASED ON THE TIER FOUR.

SO TIER FOUR, THE PROPERTY LISTING WAS VARIABLE.

SO DEBBIE, IF YOU COULD JUST CLICK ON THE PURPLE OF QUEST.

SO VARIABLE, UM, THAT ONE EQUATES TO 93 OF THOSE ERUS.

SO 93 TIMES $40, $48 IS $4,836.

THAT'S WHY IT'S VARIABLE FOR THEM.

THERE IS A SET CALCULATION TO DO THAT, BUT IT'S BASED ON THE SITE IMPERVIOUS COVERAGE.

AND ANY HOMEOWNER, IF THIS LINK WERE SHARED PUBLICLY, ANY HOMEOWNER WOULD BE ABLE TO GO TO THEIR PROPERTY, CLICK ON THEIRS, SEE WHAT WAS MAPPED, SEE HOW IT WAS CALCULATED, UM, IN ORDER TO DISPUTE.

SO THERE WAS ALSO A CREDIT OP OPPORTUNITY BUILT INTO THIS.

AND IT'S INTERESTING THAT THE, UM, ONE JUDGE HAD MENTIONED TREES BECAUSE IN THE PENNSYLVANIA DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, BMP MANUAL PLANTING TREES IS A WAY TO GET CREDIT.

SO ONE OPTION IS YOU EITHER HAVE TO PLANT 30 DECIDUOUS TREES OR 18 EVERGREEN TREES.

UM, THERE'S OTHER THINGS ON HERE, BUT THAT WAS BUILT INTO OUR PLAN.

I, I'M NOT GONNA BE MORE TECHNICAL ON THE, THE FEE CALCULATIONS FOR TODAY.

YOU CAN READ THIS WHOLE PACKET AND SEND ME ANY QUESTIONS THAT YOU MIGHT HAVE.

BUT I WANT TO QUICK SPIRAL ONTO NUMBER FIVE.

SO THIS GETS INTO BUDGETING.

UM, THE MS FOUR PROGRAM, YOU HAVE DONE THE, UH, GREENWOOD AVE STREAM BANK STABILIZATION, THAT IS FOR YOUR POLLUTION REDUCTION PLAN.

THAT'S WHAT YOU HAVE AS THIS TOWNSHIP HAS AS FAR IT'S MS FOUR PROGRAM.

THOSE CALCULATIONS WERE ON, YOU HAVE THREE IMPAIRED WATERSHEDS, DONNYBROOK SCHOOLHOUSE, AND I CAN'T REMEMBER THE OTHER ONE THAT'S UP THERE.

WE DID THIS WORK IN THE SCHOOLHOUSE WATERSHED, BUT YOU'RE GETTING CREDIT FOR ALL OF YOUR MS FOUR FOR THE LAST FIVE YEARS.

WE WILL FILE THE FINAL PAPERWORK FOR THAT IN SEPTEMBER WHEN WE PUT IN YOUR ANNUAL REPORTING.

THE NEXT MS FOUR CYCLE IS STILL IN DRAFT FORM.

I ACTUALLY WENT ON DEPS WEBSITE YESTERDAY AND THEIR LITERATURE SAYS THEY ARE NOW NO LONGER GOING TO THINK THAT THEY'RE GONNA PUBLISH THAT IN 2026.

SO INITIALLY THEY'VE COME OUT WITH DRAFT CALCULATIONS, THEY ARE COMPLETELY DIFFERENT.

YOU'LL NO LONGER LOOK AT THEM ON THOSE THREE WATERSHED BASIS.

IT WILL BE FOR THE ENTIRE MUNICIPALITY.

SO IT DOESN'T MATTER WHERE THESE PROJECTS ARE DONE ANYMORE.

SO, AGAIN, INTERESTING THAT THAT RULING SAID IT DIDN'T BENEFIT 'CAUSE IT WAS TOO FAR.

GEOGRAPHICALLY, THE NEW MS FOUR PROGRAM IS SAYING IT DOES, BUT IT'S NOT FINAL YET.

SO.

SO IT'S ALL IN LIMBO.

I WILL SAY THAT THE ONE DISTINCTION THAT THEY WERE MAKING IS THAT THEY WERE USING THE FUNDS THAT WERE COLLECTED FOR THE FEE TO PAY FOR PLANTING TREES AND STREET SWEEPING AND THINGS LIKE THAT.

THOSE TYPES OF FACILITIES OR DOING THOSE THINGS ON THEIR PROPERTY.

VERSUS, I, I, I THINK THERE WOULD BE A DISTINCTION BETWEEN GIVING PEOPLE CREDIT FOR HAVING

[00:35:01]

SO IT, IT, IT, IT MAY BE SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT.

LIKE YOU COULD SAY YOU GET CREDIT FOR HAVING THOSE, BUT THE MONEY THAT WE COLLECT WE'RE ONLY GONNA USE ON INFRASTRUCTURE.

OR WE'RE ONLY GONNA USE ON, YOU KNOW, STONE CEMENT CONCRETE, YOU KNOW, WE'RE, WE'RE GONNA DO THOSE THINGS.

SO YEAH.

UM, ORIGINALLY YOU WERE GONNA HAVE TO FILE YOUR NEW APPLICATION FOR COVERAGE BY SEPTEMBER 30TH, 2026.

BUT DEP THEN GOES ON TO SAY, HOWEVER, DEP IS NOT PLANNING TO PUBLISH THE FINAL GENERAL PERMIT DURING 2026.

A REVISED SUBMISSION DEADLINE WILL BE ANNOUNCED WHEN THE FINAL INFORMATION IS PUBLISHED.

SO WE'RE NOT GONNA HAVE THE INFORMATION 2026.

I CAN'T BEGIN TO GUESS WHAT AN MS FOUR PROJECT WOULD BE, BECAUSE LIKE I SAID, THEY'RE NO LONGER LOOKING AT IT ON THE WATERSHED BASIS.

IT'S GONNA BE THE ENTIRE MUNICIPALITY.

IT IS NOT GOING TO BE A POUND OF SEDIMENT REMOVAL ANYMORE.

IT'S GOING TO BE A VOLUME OF RUNOFF REDUCTION.

SO AGAIN, THOSE, THOSE CALCULATIONS DON'T EQUATE, I CAN'T SAY WOULD YOU HAVE TO DO FIVE MAGNITUDE FIVE OF WHAT THE STREAM BANK STABILIZATION DID, BECAUSE NOW YOU'RE LOOKING AT THE WHOLE MUNICIPALITY? OR IS IT LESS, THERE'S NOT EVEN A GUESS.

SO THERE WON'T BE ANY MS FOUR PROJECTS IN 2026.

YOU'LL HAVE TO DO ALL YOUR ANNUAL STUFF LIKE YOUR PUBLIC ENGAGEMENT, BUT THERE'S STORM WATER LIKE THAT RELATED COSTS BESIDES MS FOUR THAT YOU WOULD CORRECT.

UM, AND THE GOOD NEWS IS ALSO THAT KEEPING ON ITEM FIVE AND THE MS FOUR DEP DOES NOT JUST RUN AROUND AND INSPECT MUNICIPALITIES TO SEE IF THEY'RE COMPLYING WITH THEIR MS FOUR PROGRAM.

WE TRIGGERED THAT BECAUSE OF THE GREENWOOD AVENUE.

WHEN I CALLED DEP AND SAID, HEY, NEED YOU OUT HERE.

THEY SAID, OKAY, WELL WE'RE NOT GONNA WALK YOUR WHOLE CAMPUS.

DON HAD TO HAVE THE, GIVE THEM A TOUR OF PUBLIC WORKS.

THEY HAD TO LOOK AT THE FUEL STATION AND YOU PASSED WITH FLYING COLORS.

SO GOOD JOB, DON.

THANKS .

AND THEN THEY APPROVED THE STREAM BANK RESTORATION ALSO.

UM, SO I FORGOT THAT WE, THERE'S SO MUCH THAT'S STILL IN LIMBO FOR MS FOUR.

NOBODY KNOWS YET.

SO IN THAT REGARD, I DON'T THINK YOU SHOULD BE THE GUINEA PIG AND SPIN YOUR WHEELS.

TRYING TO GUESS, YOU KNOW, WHAT WOULD HAPPEN? UM, THE FEE, WHEN YOU READ THIS MEMO FROM 2021, THE FEE WAS MOSTLY LOOKING AT SATISFYING YOUR MS FOUR REQUIREMENTS FOR THE PROJECTS THAT YOU HAD TO DO.

SO YOU COULD HAVE PUT ALL THAT MONEY FOR THE GREENWOOD AVENUE, UM, STREAM, BANK STABILIZATION, WHATEVER THE PROJECTS WOULD BE COMING UP.

THAT WOULD BE AN OPPORTUNITY TO DO THAT.

BUT AS FAR AS, UM, THE WAY THE FINANCIALS WERE WORKED OUT, WE DID A BUDGET.

AND IT'S FUNNY 'CAUSE THE BUDGET INCLUDES STREET SWEEPING .

HAD BEEN UP AND RUNNING FOR MULTIPLE YEARS OR WERE THEY KIND OF IN THE INITIAL IMPLEMENTATION STAGES? 'CAUSE I WOULD IMAGINE THE FIRST FEW YEARS YOU'RE HAVES OF DAIRY WAS THE GOLD STANDARD.

WHICH WAS ANOTHER THING THAT THE JUDGE DIDN'T LIKE.

UM, BUT IT ALSO INCLUDES MS FOUR, UM, THE PUBLIC OUTREACH, WHICH YES.

WOULD HAVE TO HAPPEN ANNUALLY EVEN THOUGH THE NEW STUFF ISN'T OUT YET.

SO THERE'S A LOT OF UNKNOWNS.

BUT IT SOUNDS LIKE IT WILL BE CHANGING QUITE A BIT IN, IN HOW WE IMPLEMENT THAT.

SOMETHING ELSE I THINK THE GROUP WOULD NEED TO, UH, LOOK AT IS, UH, 'CAUSE THAT REMINDS ME HOW WE, WE WERE EXPLORING, UM, THE ISSUANCE OF CREDITS AND THAT, AND IF, IF YOU, THAT THAT HAS, UH, THAT HAS WITH IT A CERTAIN ADMINISTRATIVE BURDEN WHERE YOU HAVE TO, OKAY, IF SOMEBODY, IF PROPERTY, UH, OWNER A DID SO MANY TREES AND THEY, THEY APPLIED FOR A CREDIT, THERE'S, THERE'S AN ADMINISTRATIVE BURDEN.

AND I GUESS MY QUESTION, IS THAT WORTH IT OR DO YOU, OR, UH, THAT'S SOMETHING WE'LL NEED TO TALK ABOUT.

THERE'S CERTAINLY, SO WE TALKED ABOUT IT BRIEFLY.

TIM AND I DID HAVE CONFERENCE CALLS WITH DAIRY TOWNSHIP AND BETHLEHEM, UM, AND WHAT THEY'RE DOING AND WHAT THEIR THINGS, I CAN'T REMEMBER WHICH ENTITY IT WAS.

THEY, THEY BASICALLY SAID THAT ABOUT 70% OF THE CASH THAT THEY COLLECT GOES TOWARD THE ADMINISTRATION OF COLLECTING THAT CASH AND NOT TOWARDS THE PROJECTS.

THE, THE PROPORTION OF THAT WAS JUST UNBELIEVABLE, QUITE HONESTLY.

SO AS FAR AS A CREDIT, THEY CAN'T GET MORE THAN HALF CREDIT.

SO SOMEBODY WITH A FEE OF, UM, $24 CAN'T GO BELOW 12.

SOMEBODY WITH A FEE OF $48 CAN'T GO BELOW 24 FOR IT'S VERY ADMINISTRATIVE.

YOU'RE, YOU'RE SPENDING MORE THAN $24 TO GO OUT AND EVALUATE.

SO I THINK IT SHOULD BE ON THE PROPERTY OWNER THAT YES.

WHEN THEY SUBMIT THEIR APPLICATION FOR CREDIT, INCLUDE PICTURES OF THE TREES.

IF YOU BUILT SOMETHING STRUCTURAL, INCLUDE CONSTRUCTION PHOTOGRAPHS AND THEN JUST STICK 'EM IN A FILE AND SAY CHECK.

BECAUSE ANY MORE TIME SPENT ON IT RIGHT.

YOU'RE LOSING MONEY.

IT'S LIKE MAILING A 28 CENT CHECK.

YES.

I MEAN, I I ALSO WONDER, DO YOU KNOW IF THOSE PROGRAMS

[00:40:01]

I THINK THAT ONE WAS IN PLACE FOR A WHILE.

SEVERAL YEARS.

BETHLEHEM, I THINK WE ONLY LOOKED AT PEOPLE WHO HAVE HAD TWO OR THREE, BUT IT'S PROBABLY WORTH YEAH.

RE UH, SEEING WHO ELSE HAS IMPLEMENTED THESE AND UPDATE OUR DATA.

'CAUSE THAT'S, I'M JUST, I I JUST, I WOULD IMAGINE THE ADMINISTRATIVE COSTS IN THE BEGINNING WHEN YOU HAVE A LOT MORE PEOPLE THAT ARE COMING IN TO GET THAT CREDIT WOULD BE SIGNIFICANTLY MORE THAN YEAH.

VERSUS YEAR 10 OR DISPUTING HOW MANY ER USE THEIR PROPERTY IS.

YOU KNOW, QUEST COULD HAVE COME IN AND SAID, WELL, I DISPUTE THAT IT'S 93.

AND IT'S LIKE, OKAY, WELL YOU CAN CLEARLY SEE HOW THIS CALCULATED AND THERE'S NOT MUCH TO DISPUTE THERE.

YOU COULD ALSO BUILD THIS INTO YOUR LAND DEVELOPMENT PROCESS SO THAT KNOWING THAT, YOU KNOW, THE QUEST REDEVELOPMENT IS COMING IN, YOU COULD SAY AS PART OF THAT, LIKE GIVE US THE DOCUMENTATION FOR WHAT YOU'RE GONNA, WHAT YOUR FEE'S GONNA BE, AND KIND OF MAKE THAT PART OF THAT PROCESS TOO, SO THAT THAT'S ALREADY BUILT INTO SOME OF THOSE COSTS, THOSE ADMINISTRATIVE FEES AND THINGS THAT COME ALONG WITH THAT .

SO GO AHEAD AND ASK SOME QUESTIONS.

'CAUSE I KIND OF SKIPPED ALL OVER THE PLACE TO GIVE YOU SOME INFORMATION, BUT, WELL, I KNOW ONE THING ABOUT, I HAVE TO COMMENT ON STREET SWEEPING, ONE OF THE ISSUES ABOUT STREET SWEEPING IS TO GET ROAD, ROAD SALT, RIGHT? MM-HMM .

OFF OF THE STREET, WHICH GETS INTO THE WATERSHED.

MM-HMM.

SO I, I DON'T UNDERSTAND QUALITY HOW THAT'S NOT A LINKAGE.

SO THAT'S JUST A COMMON, THAT'S A COMMON, WELL, DEP SAYS ABSOLUTELY IS.

THEY'RE NOT SAYING THAT THE JUDGE SAYS IT'S NOT, ISN'T CONNECTED.

THEY'RE JUST SAYING IT'S NOT SO CONNECTED TO A SPECIFIC PROPERTY THAT IT ISN'T A TAX.

SO THEY'RE, THEY'RE NOT SAYING THAT YOU CAN'T DO ALL THAT STUFF AND THAT THAT'S NOT AN IMPORTANT PART OF THE PROGRAM.

THEY'RE JUST SAYING THAT THOSE COMPONENTS OF, OR AT LEAST THAT ONE JUSTICE WAS SAYING, THOSE COMPONENTS MAKE IT MORE OF A TAX THAN A FEE TAX FEE.

SO WE CAN STILL IMPLEMENT ALL OF THOSE PROGRAMS AND I THINK WE SHOULD, BUT IT JUST, THAT'S A DECIDING FACTOR FOR THAT JUSTICE.

THEY SAID IF YOU TAKE ALL THAT STUFF OUT AND THERE'S A MORE TARGETED CONNECTION BETWEEN A THE NON-PROFIT PROPERTY AND THE IMPERVIOUS THAT THEY HAVE AND, YOU KNOW, A CULVERT OR WHAT, OR A, YOU KNOW, CURBS OR GUTTERS OR SWALES OR WHATNOT, UM, YOU KNOW, MAYBE THEY WOULD CONSIDER THAT A FEE INSTEAD OF ATTACKS.

AGAIN, I, I THINK THAT THE, THE MUNICIPALITIES THAT ARE PROBABLY GONNA TEST THIS ARE GONNA BE THE ONES LIKE HARRISBURG, UM, WESTCHESTER, YOU KNOW, COMMUNITIES THAT HAVE LARGE IMPERVIOUS HEAVY INSTITUTIONS.

YOU KNOW, IT'S GONNA BE WORTH IT TO THEM TO CHALLENGE IT AND TO SAY, OKAY, WE MADE A MORE TARGETED PROGRAM VERSUS A TOWNSHIP LIKE UPPER PROVIDENCE WHERE YOU DON'T HAVE A LOT OF THAT.

SO IT'S REALLY THE AMOUNT OF MONEY YOU'RE GONNA COLLECT ISN'T PROBABLY WORTH IT.

THE ONE THING, MR. CHAIRMAN SURE.

THE ONE THING THAT I THOUGHT OF, I MEAN, I KNOW IT'S NOT AN IMPER SURFACE, BUT I COULD CHANGE THE TOPOGRAPHY OF MY LAND TO CREATE RUNOFF.

YOU COULD REDIRECT RUNOFF WHERE THERE I COULD REDIRECT WHERE THERE'S NOT CAPACITY FOR IT.

YOU SHOULDN'T BE BECAUSE YOU SHOULD BE COMING TO ME FOR A GRADING PERMIT FIRST.

WELL, AND I SHOULD CATCH THAT I'M, BUT YES.

, I'M JEN, YOU KNOW WHAT YOU'RE DOING TOMORROW.

IT'S DEFINITELY WATER QUALITY.

I'M THINKING, I I'M THINKING OF A GOLF COURSE TO BE VERY BLUNT AND TRANSPARENT.

YEP, YEP.

SO IT'S NOT A IMPERMEABLE SURFACE, BUT IT AFFECTS RUNOFF.

IT COULD AFFECT RUNOFF.

FOR HOW GREEN THEY'RE MAKING IT.

EXACTLY.

SO MY SELFISH QUESTION IS HOW IMPERVIOUS ARE RIDING ARENAS AND PADDOCKS WHEN THERE ARE DRAINS IN THOSE THINGS INTO THE FIELDS? I DON'T KNOW.

DO YOU MIND IF WE PULL UP YOUR PROPERTY? I'M SORRY, WHAT? DO YOU MIND IF WE PULL UP YOUR PROPERTY PLEASE? ON HERE? GO AHEAD.

TO SEE IF, YEAH.

I'M ASSUMING YOU CAN FIND ALL THE WAY UP TO WHARTMAN OVER BY PER OVER BY PERVIEW AND HIGH SCHOOL OF UP BY TOWNSHIP, THE TOP OF GREENWOOD AVENUE.

I I'M WAY OUT IN THE NECK ON THE EDGE OF THE TOWNSHIP, TOP OF GREENWOOD.

SO, AND I DON'T KNOW ZACH, IF THIS MAKES IT MORE DEFENSIBLE FOR THE MUNICIPALITY.

WHEN WE CALCULATED COVERAGES, WE DID NOT INCLUDE PUBLIC ROADS.

WE DID NOT INCLUDE PUBLIC SIDEWALK.

WE DID INCLUDE PRIVATE TRAILS.

SO IN OTHER WORDS, ON THE RIVER CREST GOLF COURSE TO USE AS AN EXAMPLE, THEIR CART PATHS WOULD'VE BEEN CALCED BECAUSE THEY'RE PRIVATE TO THEM AND THEY PUT THAT IMPERVIOUS COVERAGE THERE.

BUT IF YOU'RE A HOMEOWNER AND YOU HAVE SIDEWALK IN THE FRONT THAT THE TOWN REQUIRED, YOU ARE NOT BEING PENALIZED FOR THAT AS AN INDIVIDUAL LOT OWNER TO PAY FOR THAT.

JEN GEORGE HAS A QUESTION TOO.

HALF THE LOT IS ALREADY NO, BECAUSE THEY'VE BEEN CALCULATED IN THIS ALREADY AND THEY'RE ALREADY THE CANOPIES TREES.

SO IF WE'RE GETTING A CREDIT TO PLANT TREES FROM LOTS MM-HMM .

WHAT ABOUT THE LOTS THAT ALREADY HAVE CLOSED CANOPIES?

[00:45:02]

SO THEY'D HAVE TO, THEY'D HAVE TO REMOVE SOME OF THEIR PURPLE BY AT LEAST A THOUSAND SQUARE FEET OR SOMETHING TO GET THEM INTO THE LOWER TIER TO GET THAT CREDIT.

SO JUST 'CAUSE YOU HAVE EXISTING TREES, YOU'RE NOT GETTING MORE CREDIT FOR IT.

YOU HAVE TO ADDRESS YOUR EXISTING IMPERVIOUS, WHICH IS YOUR PURPLE CAP AREA.

EVEN IF IT BE COVERS YOUR DRIVEWAY COMPLETELY.

BECAUSE THE WATER'S STILL NOT PERCOLATING INTO THE GROUND, WHICH THE, BUT THE TREES SLOW IT DOWN.

THE TREES SLOW IT DOWN.

SO I COULD HAVE 80 TREES RIGHT NOW, BUT THEY DON'T COUNT.

BUT IF I PLANT, BECAUSE I'M NOT CHARGING YOU FOR YOUR TREES, RIGHT.

I'M ONLY CHARGING YOU FOR YOUR HOUSE AND YOUR DRIVEWAY.

BUT IF I PLANT 30 MORE, I GET HALF OFF.

IF YOU TAKE AWAY IMPERVIOUS AREA, OH, I HAVE TO TAKE AWAY IMPERVIOUS AREA TWO.

I THOUGHT IT WAS JUST PLANTING TREES.

IF YOU PLANT NEW TREES, I THINK THAT WAS, THAT WAS OKAY.

UM, OR YOU HAVE TO REMOVE IMPERVIOUS COVERAGE.

THERE WERE FOUR DIFFERENT WAYS THAT YOU COULD REDUCE.

AND AGAIN, WE CAN MAKE IT TWO WAYS TO REDUCE, WE CAN MAKE IT SIX WAYS TO REDUCE.

THIS WASN'T SET IN STONE.

THIS WAS WHAT JOE BRESNAN THOUGHT WAS MORE DEFENDABLE.

UM, ZACH MAY THINK OTHER THINGS ARE MORE DEFENDABLE, SO WE WOULD WANT TO TAILOR IT TO, IF YOU GET SUED, WE WANT YOU TO WIN.

SO, I MEAN, AND AND ALSO I WOULD, I WOULD ASSUME THAT MOST OF THESE CREDITS ARE PROBABLY NOT GONNA BE TAKEN ADVANTAGE OF BY, YOU KNOW, JOE SMITH HOMEOWNER.

WELL ALSO IT'S PROBABLY GONNA BE TOWN CENTER, RIGHT.

BECAUSE LARGE, I CAN'T PLANT ONE TREE FOR $12.

WELL, YEAH, IT'S GONNA BE A FEW HUNDRED DOLLARS.

SO YOU'RE GONNA MAKE YOUR MONEY BACK THE ANNUAL FEE OF $104 AND YOU CAN ONLY DROP TO, YOU KNOW, YOU'RE, YOU'RE NOT, YOU'RE NEVER GOING TO RECOUP THAT 50, RECOUP THAT IN RIGHT.

IN YOUR TREES.

SO LORI, IS THE AREA YOU'RE CONCERNED ABOUT HIGHLIGHTED IN PURPLE RIGHT NOW? NO.

UM, BUT I MAY BE SHOOTING MYSELF IN THE FOOT IF YOU'VE DONE THIS WITH, UM, YOU KNOW, GOOGLE EARTH OR WHATEVER IS THAT, I DON'T KNOW WHAT THAT LITTLE FUNNY PIECE IS UP NEAR THE TOP CENTER THERE.

ROAD, I GUESS MAYBE.

WELL IT'S PART OF MY DRIVEWAY, BUT IT'S MORE THAN MY DRIVEWAY.

NO, GO.

KEEP GOING.

PLUS UP TO THE ROAD THERE.

THAT REALLY FUNNY SHAPE THAT WAY.

KEEP GOING UP TOWARDS THE ROAD.

RIGHT THERE, THERE, RIGHT THERE.

WHERE THE, THE TOP LEFT? NOPE, NOPE.

TOP LEFT.

ZOOM OUT.

KEEP MOVING, KEEP MOVING.

ALMOST THERE.

THERE YOU GO.

SO THAT REALLY FUNNY SHAPE THERE IS PART OF MY DRIVEWAY, BUT NOT REALLY.

I MEAN, I DON'T KNOW HOW TO TELL YOU.

I THINK THIS IS WHAT YOU WERE JUST TALKING ABOUT.

THE DRIVEWAY IS COVERED BY THE CANOPY OF THE TREES.

IT IS, IT IS.

SO, SO THERE SHOULD BE PURPLE ALL WHERE THE ARROW IS, THE POINTER, THE CURSOR IS, OR WHATEVER YOU WANNA SAY.

SO THAT ONE LITTLE SHARP TRIANGLE PART THAT'S POINTING DOWN RIGHT.

THAT'S NOT MY PROPERTY.

AND THEN THE DRIVEWAY PART.

THAT'S WHERE THE DRIVEWAY TURNS, BUT IT'S NOT THAT BIG.

BUT THEN YES, MY DRIVEWAY GOES FROM THERE TO CONNECT UP TO THE OTHER PURPLE.

YOU GOTTA CONNECT THE TWO PURPLES.

RIGHT UNDER THE TREES.

'CAUSE THERE, THERE'S A GRAVEL DRIVEWAY THERE.

MM-HMM THAT'S, THAT'S WHY WE CAN'T HAVE AI DO THIS .

AND, AND YES, MY UNDERSTANDING IS THAT WOULD BE IMPERVIOUS.

AND THEN SO, SO IF THIS LINK WERE RELEASED TO THE PUBLIC AND YOU WENT ON TO VERIFY YOUR SITE, YOU WOULD NOT BE COMING IN TO ASK FOR ANY CREDIT BECAUSE YOU DON'T WANNA BRING IT TO THE ATTENTION OF, I MEAN, I WANNA BE HONEST, BUT WANNA BE NOT.

NOW, NOW YOU, LORI WOULD COME IN AND, AND YEAH, I WOULD COME IN AND SAY, I OWE YOU MORE MONEY.

BARELY.

SEE HERE.

NOW IF YOU'LL SCROLL FARTHER DOWN TO THE RIGHT, WHAT YOU'RE SAYING, WHAT YOU'RE SAYING.

SO, BUT THEN SHE HAS THIS CHUNK.

KEEP GOING TO THE PADDOCK AREA TREES.

NOW SCOOT UP.

SO THEN BE OOPS, STOP BEHIND THE BARN.

NOW YOU'RE, YOU'RE LIKE COVERING THE ARENA, BUT FROM THE ARENA UP TO THE BARN IS ANOTHER DRIVEWAY.

AND BEHIND THE BARN IS A DRIVEWAY.

GET YOUR CREDIT.

I MEAN, IT'S JUST A ONE CASE STUDY EXAMPLE.

TIM, CAN I GET YOUR MAGIC PENCIL OUT AND LIKE DRAW THE LINE UNDERGROUND INFILTRATION? WELL, I THINK, I THINK THE POINT IS THAT IT'S NOT, IT'S NOT PARTICULARLY ACCURATE.

MY NON-TECHNICAL, SINCE SHE'S TIED UP WOULD BE THAT, THAT IT WOULD BE, PART OF IT WOULD BE NON IMPERVIOUS, BUT IT'S CONTROLLING THE WATER RUNOFF ANYWAY.

AND I'M WILLING TO SAY THAT THERE'S MORE DRIVEWAY INVOLVED HERE.

BUT MY QUESTION HAS MORE TO DO WITH THE PADDOCK THAT HAS ACTUAL DRAINS IN IT AND THE ARENA THAT HAS DRAINS AROUND IT, THAT THEN DRAIN INTO THE PROPERTY BECAUSE THEY HAVE DRAINS.

DOES THAT MAKE THEM IMPERVIOUS OR NOT IMPERVIOUS? I THINK

[00:50:01]

SO IT DOESN'T, YOU KNOW, IT'S, IT'S A NON-FACTOR.

BECAUSE IT MAN, YOU'RE MANAGING THE, THE RUN, THE RUNOFF, THE RUN.

IT WOULD DEPEND ON THE DEFINITION.

I DON'T KNOW.

I MEAN WOULD, WOULD A RIDING PADDOCK, WOULD THAT BE BE CONSIDERED IMPERVIOUS? WELL, SO WHOSE DEFINITION OF IMPERVIOUS COVERAGE WOULD YOU LIKE TO USE? BECAUSE THE NEW MS FOUR THAT'S GOING TO COME OUT IS GOING TO INCLUDE POOLS, DECKS, GRAVEL, SWIMMING POOLS.

AND IT'S MORE THAN WHAT WE LOOK AT RIGHT NOW IN THIS MUNICIPALITY.

SO.

WELL, IF YOU DON'T HAVE AN IMPERVIOUS SWIMMING POOL, YOU NOT DOING A LOT, LOT OF SWIMMING.

WANT , .

OKAY, SO I, I GET THE GRAPHIC.

I THINK WE WOULD NEED TO PUT TOGETHER A DEFINITION IMPERVIOUS.

MM-HMM.

THAT'S PART OF THE WORKSHOP THAT WE NEED.

YOU KNOW, AND I DO UNDERSTAND THE GRAVEL THING 'CAUSE I WATCH WATER RUN DOWN MY DRIVEWAY.

SURE.

AND THE OTHER DRIVEWAY TO MY UH, ARENA, WE CALL IT THE LANE, BUT WHATEVER.

BUT FOR THE, IN THE ARENA ITSELF, EVENTUALLY ITSELF, ITSELF OVER TIME ITSELF, THEY HAVE THEIR OWN DRAINS THAT DRAIN INTO THE PROPERTY.

RIGHT, RIGHT, RIGHT.

IT THE GRAVEL, IT'S ASSUMED OVER TIME THAT WILL BE COMPACTED AND IT WILL BE IMPERVIOUS.

IN TWO YEARS, IF YOU'RE USING MILLINGS FOR SOMETHING THAT GOES DOWN IS GRAVEL, THE FIRST HOT SUMMER IT'S GOING TO BAKE AND IT WILL BECOME IMPERVIOUS.

UM, THE POOL, THE POOL WATER SURFACE.

PEOPLE SAY, OH WELL YOU HAVE EIGHT INCHES OF FREEBOARD BETWEEN THE WATER SURFACE AND THE COPING OF YOUR POOL BEFORE IT COVERS.

SO THE A HUNDRED YEAR STORM WILL BE IN YOUR POOL.

IT'S NOT RUNNING OFF.

SO WE'RE NOT GONNA COUNT YOUR POOL SERVICE.

WE'VE INCLUDED POOLS AND, AND DECKING AND COPING IN THESE CALCULATIONS.

BUT WHEN I MY POOL, I GOTTA DRAIN THE WATER.

WHICH THEN IT IS RIGHT .

AND WHEN YOU DRAIN YOUR WATER, IT'S NOT SUPPOSED TO HAVE ANY CHEMICALS IN IT.

'CAUSE YOU CAN'T DISCHARGE THAT TO THE SURFACE OR TO THE STORM WATER.

OH, THAT'S ALL IN THE MS FOUR AND THAT'S ENFORCEMENT.

WE ALL KNOW WHAT HAPPENS, BUT I GET OUT BIG STRAW, JUST DRINK IT.

YOU WAIT FOR ALL THE CHLORINE TO EVAPORATE FIRST.

IT'S A SALT WATER.

OH, YOU PROMISE.

SO IT'S A SALT WATER POOL.

IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE SAYING? SO, SO A LOT OF WORK HAS BEEN PUT INTO IT.

UM, PRELIMINARY NUMBERS EXIST, THEY SHOULD BE UPDATED, THE COVERAGE SHOULD BE UPDATED.

YOU HAVE MORE, UM, RESIDENTIAL PROPERTIES.

THEN THESE FIGURES WERE BASED OFF OF, THE FEE WAS CALCULATED BASED ON A MILLION DOLLAR BUDGET ANNUALLY.

AND THAT'S HOW IT WAS BACKED DOWN TO COLLECT THAT MILLION DOLLARS.

THAT'S HOW WE GOT TO THE 52 MM-HMM .

YEP.

SO IF YOU WANT A 200 OR A $2 MILLION BUDGET OR YOU ONLY WANT A $500,000 BUDGET, YOU COULD CHANGE THAT EXACTLY EVERY SINGLE YEAR.

AND THEN ADMINISTRATION IS COSTLY.

I THINK ANYTHING WE'LL GET INTO IT IN THE WORKSHOP.

ANYTHING WE CAN DO TO MINIMIZE THE, THE ADMINISTRATIVE UH, TIME TO CALCULATE THAT WOULD BE PRUDENT.

SO, UH, ALRIGHT, WELL THANK YOU GUYS FOR VOLUNTEERING TO UH, LOOK INTO THIS AND, UH, WORK HIS ENGINEER AND TIM AND ZACH IF NEEDED AND SO FORTH.

BEFORE WE LEAVE, LET'S GET SOME DATES SO WE DON'T YEAH.

LET'S WAIT ON NEXT DISCUSSION ON THAT.

UM, ON SIX.

DID WE COMPLY ALL MS FOUR THINGS YOU WANTED TO SAY? TALK ABOUT? YEP.

FOUR AND FIVE.

YEP.

'CAUSE MS FOUR THERE, THERE'S JUST NOTHING NEW.

THERE'S, THERE'S NOTHING TO DO YET.

CURRENT PENDING, UH, WATER SEWER PROJECTS.

[6. Receive updates on current and pending water/sewer projects]

THE MIKE IN THAT, THE SECOND AVENUE SEWER REPLACEMENT PROJECT, WE ARE PREPARING DOCUMENTS CON CONTRACT DOCUMENTS AND PLANS, PRELIMINARY PLANS TO GO TO EPA.

THEY HAVE TO REVIEW 'EM AS PART OF THE GRANT PROCEDURE.

ONCE THEY APPROVE THEM, THEN WE SHOULD BE ABLE TO GO FINAL AND POSSIBLY GO OUT THE BID.

BUT IT'S UP.

AND WE ARE HOPING TO AWARD THAT AT THE BOARD OF SUPERVISORS MEETING WHEREVER OTHER CONTRACTOR IS ON THE 15TH.

IT'S A, IT DEPENDS ON EPA AND HOW FAST THEY MOVE.

THE LINFIELD TRAP ROAD, SPROUT CIRCLE SEWER PROJECT.

WE GOT COMMENTS BACK FROM DEP ON THE PLANNING MODULES THAT WE SUBMITTED AND THEY WILL BE GOING BACK IN WITH THE COMMENTS ADDRESSED AFTER THE JUNE 15TH SUPERVISORS MEETING WHEN THEY SIGNED A NEW RESOLUTION.

SO THEY SHOULD GO BACK, GET APPROVED AND ONCE THEY'RE APPROVED WE SHOULD BE ABLE TO MOVE ON WITH THE FINAL DESIGN OF THAT PROJECT.

THE SITE MILL ROAD STORM PIPE REPLACEMENT PROJECT THAT IS OUT TO BID.

THE BIDS GET OPENED NEXT WEDNESDAY THE 10TH

[00:55:02]

AND THAT HAS A CLAUSE IN IT THAT THEY HAVE TO DO THE WORK BETWEEN AUGUST 1ST AND AUGUST 24TH TO AVOID SCHOOL BUSES AND THE EAGLE NEST.

SO, AND I THINK THE SANITARY SEWER LINING PROJECT IS STARTING THE 16TH, 16TH OF THE SMOKE DOWN ON JACOB STREET, JACOB AND MO.

SO THAT'S ALL I HAVE.

ANY QUESTIONS FOR MIKE ON THIS?

[7. Other Business a. Discuss possible regional cooperation with Lower Providence Township on joint MS4 compliance projects b. Discuss current Municipal Authority vacancies]

UM, MOVING ON, OTHER BUSINESS, I SEE AN ITEM HERE, REGIONAL CORPORATION WITH LOWER PROVINCE.

I JUST WANTED TO, UM, ADD A LITTLE BIT OF, UM, MEET TO THE WHOLE DISCUSSION ON OUR WORKING GROUP.

WE MIGHT WANT TO INVITE, UH, SOME REPRESENTATIVES FROM LOWER PROVIDENCE.

UH, THE BOARD IS STARTING TO MEET LITTLE CORE GROUPS WITH SOME OF OUR TOWNS AND ONE OF THE AREAS THAT CAME UP WITH LOWER PROVIDENCE IS WORKING TOGETHER ON MAYBE JOINT GRANT PROJECTS OR JOINT MS FOUR OR JOINT STORMWATER PROJECTS SINCE WE BOTH ABOVE THE PERM AND CREEK.

AND I THINK THIS TYPE OF THING KIND OF SCREAMS, KIND OF SCREAMS REGIONAL, A REGIONAL SOLUTIONS.

SO I THINK WE SHOULD UM, MAYBE INVITE, UM, TWO THE PEOPLE FROM LAUREL, PROVIDENCE.

I KNOW THEY'RE, LOOK, THEY WERE KIND OF LOOKING AT US WHETHER WE MIGHT BE INTERESTED.

SO MAYBE SURE.

THERE MIGHT BE SOME SYNERGIES THERE.

SO, SO I'M GOING TO PIGGYBACK OFF OF THAT.

IN THE DRAFT GUIDANCE THAT IS NOT APPROVED YET FOR THE MS FOUR, YOU ACTUALLY GET QUITE A BIT OF A BUMP A A BONUS BY DOING JOINT PROJECTS WITH OTHER MUNICIPALITIES.

SO YOU BOTH BENEFIT FROM THAT AND YOUR OVERALL VOLUME THAT YOU HAVE, LET'S SAY IT'S A HUNDRED GALLONS, IT'S GONNA DROP TO 80 PURELY BECAUSE YOU COOPERATED AND DID A JOINT PROJECT.

AND SO OF COURSE IT'S NOT FINAL, BUT IT'S INCLUDED IN THE DRAFT.

AND THEN MY LAST COMMENT, MR. CHAIRMAN, IS WE HAVE ONE WITH VACANCY RETURN FILL.

SO EMILY SIDOR I THINK, UH, WAS SOMEBODY WHO, UH, SCHEDULED, JUST DIDN'T WORK OUT.

SO SHE'S, UM, RESIGNED FROM THE COMMITTEE.

UM, SO WE HAVE ONE VACANCY, SO, OKAY.

SO THANK YOU FOR THE UPDATE.

UH, ANY OTHER BUSINESS BY ANYBODY? TIM, WHAT ABOUT ME AND JOE? WHAT'S THAT? WHAT I, ME AND JOE PRESIDENT? YEP.

I THINK, UM, THAT EXCLUDES, I I THINK I'LL HAVE TO LOOK AT THE NUMBER COUNT, BUT I, I THINK WE STILL HAVE ONE VACANCY, BUT I'LL, I'LL, I JUST WANNA KNOW HOW THAT WORKS.

UH, DO I NEED TO OFFICIALLY RESIGN? WELL, IF YOU DO, THEN IT'LL BE TWO VACANCIES.

SO.

WELL, SHE, SO YOU'RE PUTTING JOE, JOE INTO THE OTHER VACANCY? WELL IF JOE, IF THE BOARD APPOINTS JOE, UM, HE'S UM, HE'S NOT BACK FROM OVERSEAS UNTIL JULY, SO.

YEAH, SO YOU DON'T HAVE TO LEAVE FOR JOE TO JOIN IS WHAT WE'RE SAYING.

LIKE DARN IT, YOU CAN, HEY, YOU CAN LEAVE.

ANYWAY.

, I WAS LOOKING FORWARD TO FEWER MEETINGS.

DON'T LEAVE.

YOU CAN LEAVE .

MY MY THEORY WAS THAT IF YOU DO DECIDE TO GET OFF THERE, IS IT GOING TO BE A BUSINESS? SAY THAT AGAIN, TIM.

I THINK, I THINK IF YOU DO DECIDE TO STEP DOWN, THERE WILL STILL BE A, THERE STILL BE A VACANCY.

'CAUSE THAT WOULDN'T MEAN THERE'S TWO VACANCIES.

UNLESS YOU WANNA STAY ON, BUT I, I PROMISED YOU YOU DIDN'T HAVE TO DO THAT, SO WE'LL DISCUSS IT LATER.