[CALL TO ORDER / MOTION TO APPROVE AUGUST 20, 2025 AGENDA]
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OKAY, WE'RE GONNA CALL TO ORDER THE UPPER PROVIDENCE TOWNSHIP PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING FOR, UH, UM, JULY OR AUGUST, WHAT, 21? 2020.
UM, AND, UH, WITH THAT WE'RE GONNA START WITH, UH, TO APPROVE THE AGENDA THAT JEFF HAS PUT OUT TONIGHT, WHICH IS NOT A, A BIG AGENDA.
WE HAVE NO APPLICANTS ON THE AGENDA TONIGHT.
WE JUST GOTTA TALK ABOUT THE, UH, THE COMPREHENSIVE PLAN THAT WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT FOR THE LAST FEW MEETINGS.
AND I KNOW BRIAN'S DONE A LOT OF WORK HERE TO GIVE US TO TALK ABOUT.
SO I'LL TAKE A MOTION TO APPROVE THE AGENDA.
I, PAUL HAS MADE A MOTION TO APPROVE THE AGENDA.
SO, UH, WITH THAT, LET'S, UM, LET'S
[PUBLIC COMMENT FOR NON-AGENDA ITEMS]
MOVE TO PUBLIC COMMENT FOR NON-AG AGENDA ITEMS. UH, LADIES, DO YOU HAVE ANYTHING YOU WANNA SPEAK ABOUT TONIGHT? NO.THIS WOULD BE NON AGENDA ITEM, WHICH YOU, WE SURE.
SO WHO WANTS TO GO FIRST? I WOULD THANK YOU.
MY NAME IS DIANE COUNTY OF ONE 18 NORWOOD STREET IN MONTCLAIR.
I'VE BEEN THERE OVER 40 YEARS AND I'M HERE TO DISCUSS ALL THE BUILDING, ESPECIALLY AT ONE 40 WHITAKER.
THE POTENTIAL OF PUTTING 51 TOWN HOMES WHEN WE CAN'T EVEN GET OUT OF OUR NORWOOD STREET.
I AM RIGHT THERE CONNECTED TO THE ORIGINAL MONTCLAIR SCHOOL AND THE MONTCLAIR DELI.
SO WE HAVE CONSTANT PARKING ON OUR STREET FROM THE DELI, FROM THE APARTMENTS.
THEY WERE THERE, THE SCHOOL WAS THERE.
DO YOU GET A LOT OF PARKING FOR THE, FOR THE DELI? YES, WE DO.
REALLY? BECAUSE THERE'S WORKERS THAT WORK AT THE DELI OH, OKAY.
AND THEY'RE, AND THEN THEY'RE OPEN FROM EIGHT TO FOUR, AND THEN ON THE WEEKENDS ARE OPEN TO EIGHT O'CLOCK AT NIGHT.
BECAUSE ESPECIALLY AT LUNCH, THEY'LL COME AND THEY GO.
BUT SOMETIMES THE, THE WORKERS PARK ON OUR STREET TOO.
SO, YOU KNOW, AND I LIKE THE DELI, SO I'M NOT, AND, AND THE APARTMENT BUILDING, UH, THE ORIGINAL MONTCLAIR SCHOOL HAS PARKING, BUT THEY ALSO HAVE PEOPLE THAT PARK AND SOMETIMES PARK ON OUR GRASS AND OUR HEDGE.
SO I HAVE TO POLITELY WRITE A NOTE WHEN IT IS TIME TO CUT OUR GRASS AND CUT THE HEDGE.
YOU KNOW, CAN YOU STAY ON THE APARTMENT? IT'S BEEN, THAT'S OKAY.
I AM VERY CONCERNED ABOUT THE BUILDING OF THE TOWN HOMES BECAUSE OUR ROADS CAN'T TAKE ANY MORE TRAFFIC.
WE CAN'T EVEN GET OUT TO GO SOMEWHERE AT RUSH HOUR OFF THE DOORWAY TO ROUTE 29 LEFT OR RIGHT, OR UP TO WHITAKER AND EGYPT ROAD.
I REALLY, REALLY HOPE SOMETHING CAN BE DONE.
I'M NOT AGAINST DEVELOPING MAYBE A COUPLE SINGLE FAMILY HOMES, BUT 51 TOWN HOMES WITH TWO TO THREE CARS.
THAT NEIGHBORHOOD CAN'T TAKE IT.
I MEAN, HONESTLY, PLEASE, WHAT'S A TRAFFIC STUDY GONNA BE LIKE? I MEAN, IT HAS TO BE DONE, CORRECT? YES.
THERE HAS TO BE A TRAFFIC STUDY.
AND THAT'S, THAT'S WASN'T, WE HAVE THE TRAFFIC ENGINEER HERE, SO, SO WHAT'S THE TRAFFIC DOING NOW? SO I COULD GET OUT ON ROUTE 29 FROM MY HOUSE, YOU KNOW, THREE HOUSES IN FROM ROUTE 29 WHEN I CAN.
SO, UH, AS PART OF THE PRELIMINARY PLAN, THEY WILL NEED TO DO A FULL TRAFFIC STUDY.
WE'VE OUTLINED, UH, THE INTERSECTIONS THAT WE'VE ASKED THEM TO INCLUDE IN THAT STUDY SO THAT WE CAN UNDERSTAND THE EXISTING PROBLEMS. AND THEN WE CAN ALSO UNDERSTAND WHAT THEIR IMPACT IS AND, YOU KNOW, WHAT IT, WHAT WOULD IT BE, AND THEN HOW ARE THEY GOING TO, TO MITIGATE THAT? WHAT, WHAT ARE THEY GOING TO DO? WHAT DO THEY NEED TO DO? UH, WHETHER THAT'S, UM, ADDITIONAL LANES, WHETHER IT'S CHANGING TRAFFIC PATTERNS.
I MEAN, THERE ARE ALL KINDS OF OPTIONS AVAILABLE TO THEM, UH, BUT IT'S UNTIL WE HAVE THEM COLLECT THE DATA AND ANALYZE THE DATA, I, YOU KNOW, I, I CAN'T TELL YOU WHAT THE ANSWER'S GOING TO BE 'CAUSE I, I JUST HAVEN'T SEEN IT YET.
MAY I ASK WHAT THE ANSWER, WHAT'S THE ANSWER NOW TO GET OUT OR EVEN TRY TO GO NEAR PRODUCE JUNCTION LOCK 29 PHOENIXVILLE OR EVEN UP TO COLLEGEVILLE.
IT MIGHT BE EASIER FOR ME PULLING OUT OF NORWOOD IF SOMEONE STOPS AND LETS ME GO, RIGHT? MM-HMM
BUT THEN TWO PEOPLE HAVE TO STOP TO LET ME GO LEFT.
GOD FORBID I NEED TO GO TO PHOENIXVILLE HOSPITAL.
WELL, MA MA'AM, I MEAN, WE CAN CONTROL AND WE CAN WORK ON THE TRAFFIC IN OUR TOWNSHIP, IN OUR PROJECTS, RIGHT? BUT 29 IS OBVIOUSLY A REGIONAL ROAD.
4 22 IS A HYPER REGIONAL ROAD.
AND I'M NOT SAYING THAT TO, TO, TO BELITTLE WHAT YOUR QUESTIONS ARE
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AND, AND YOUR CONCERNS.YOU ABSOLUTELY HAVE A CONCERN THERE.
BUT WITH ROUTE 29 AND EGYPT ROAD, THERE'S ONLY SO MUCH WE CAN DO.
AND, AND WHEN A DEVELOPMENT COMES IN, WE CAN LOOK AT THE IMPACTS OF THAT DEVELOPMENT AND WE CAN LOOK AT HOW WE CAN IMPROVE THINGS BEYOND WHERE THEY ARE TODAY.
AND MAYBE GIVES US A SENSE OF WHERE ELSE WE CAN IMPROVE THINGS AS A TOWNSHIP.
BUT IT'S, IT'S, THERE'S A LOT OF THIS THAT IS OUT OF THE TOWNSHIP CONTROL, THEN I'LL STAY, STAY AWAY FROM A 29 OR PEACH ROAD.
HOW DO I GET OUTTA MY NEIGHBORHOOD NOW THAT EV WELL, YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE PROBLEMS, MA'AM, IS THAT, UM, YOU KNOW, YOU'RE ASKING US AND BRIAN AND, AND JEFF AND, AND THIS BOARD TO FIX SOMETHING THAT HAS BEEN GOING ON.
YOU KNOW, HOW LONG HAS THE MEADOWS BEEN THERE? YOU KNOW, THAT'S A BIG THING.
THIS THE MEADOWS WASN'T IMPACTING.
IT'S SOME OF WELL, THE BUILDING ON EGYPT ROAD, I'M SORRY.
ALL THAT BUILDING, ALL THAT, THE MEADOWS, ALL THE BUILDING, I MEAN ALL THAT.
YOU ARE ASKING US TO CORRECT IT TODAY AND NO, NOT, AND I'M NOT SURE WE CAN, I WAS TOLD TO COME HERE FROM THE SUPERVISOR'S MEETING MM-HMM
SO THAT'S WHY I'M HERE AND I'M, I'M HERE.
BUT, BUT I CONCERNED SINCE SERIOUSLY.
WELL, WE UNDERSTAND THAT WE, I'M NOT FEEL FOR YOU SAYING I'M NOT FOR, UH, PROGRESS OR FOR, UH, FILLING HOUSES.
BUT SERIOUSLY IN THAT LITTLE AREA OF MONTCLAIR 51 MORE TOWN HOMES, WE WON'T BE ABLE TO GET OUT OF, I'LL SAY NORWOOD OR WHITAKER TO GET TO ANY OTHER PLACE.
UM, I'M NOT YELLING AT YOU, I'M JUST OH, NO, NO.
YOU CAN'T, WE CAN'T GET OUT OUR NEIGHBORHOOD.
I'VE BEEN DOWN THERE MANY TIMES.
BUT IT'S, IF YOU HAD TO FIGHT THAT EVERY DAY, BUT THEY'RE STILL ALLOWING BUILDING AND BUILDING OF MASSIVE UNITS, NOT TWO OR THREE HOUSES OR YOU KNOW, THAT'S A NEIGHBORHOOD MAYBE WE DON'T NEED.
'CAUSE THE MEADOWS HAVE BEEN THERE FOR YEARS.
MAYBE WE JUST NEED NOT 51 TOWN HOMES, MAYBE FIVE HOUSES OR, YOU KNOW, TO KEEP IT.
YOU KNOW, IT HAS TO BE, IN ALL FAIRNESS TO THE DEVELOPER, IT HAS TO BE FINANCIALLY VIABLE FOR THE MAN.
I THOUGHT IT WAS ZONED COMMERCIAL, BUT WE WERE TOLD IT'S NOT COMMERCIAL.
IT'S, IT'S, THERE'S A REVISION WITHIN THE PROFESSIONAL BUSINESS OFFICES WE TALKED ABOUT THAT ALLOWS FOR RESIDENTIAL UNITS.
AND WE CAN DEBATE THE, THE, THE LOGIC OF THAT OR WHETHER OR NOT THAT'S GOOD ZONING OR BAD ZONING.
IT'S BEEN IN PLACE SINCE 1970 SOMETHING THAT THE ZONING'S BEEN THAT WAY FROM THE DAY PBO WAS ADOPTED.
SO WHILE MAYBE AT SOME POINT WE SHOULD HAVE REMOVED IT, IT IT'S IN THERE AND NOW WE'RE DEALING WITH THE IMPLICATIONS OF THAT.
AND ONCE WE GET, THERE'S TWO STEPS.
NOW THE, THIS BOARD ISN'T AWARE OF WHAT HAPPENED ON MONDAY NIGHT.
WELL, MR. PETERS IS, 'CAUSE HE STUCK IT OUT.
BUT, UM, THE REST OF THE BOARD ISN'T AWARE OF WHAT HAPPENED MONDAY NIGHT.
AT MONDAY NIGHT'S BOARD MEETING, THEY HAD A LENGTHY DISCUSSION.
THERE WAS A LOT OF PUBLIC COMMENT ABOUT WHITAKER.
THEY, THEY APPROVED THE TENTATIVE PLAN WITH THE CAVEAT THAT THE LEASE IS NOT IN COMPLIANCE WITH THE TENTATIVE PLAN.
IT'S THE SAME TE GENERALLY THE SAME TENTATIVE PLAN THAT YOU'VE SEEN.
THEY'VE MOVED A FEW THINGS BACK, SAVED SOME TREES, MINOR ALTERATION PLAN NUMBERS, STILL THE SAME WITH THE IDEA OF THAT ZACH WOULD GO TO, UM, THE DEVELOPER AND LOOK AT A REDUCTION IN NUMBER AND REVISING THE PLAN.
SO WITH THE AUTHORIZATION THAT IF, IF THAT DOESN'T WORK, WE CAN GO TO COURT AND THEN GET AN INJUNCTION.
'CAUSE THEY'RE NOT FOLLOWING THE LEASE.
SO WE HAVE TO MADE ANY PROGRESS ON IT IN THE TWO, THREE DAYS SINCE THEN, UM, THERE HAS BEEN NO DISCUSSION, AT LEAST ON MY END.
THEY APPROVED, THE SUPERVISORS APPROVED THE TENTATIVE PLAN.
WITH THE CAVEAT OF WHAT? THE CAVEAT THAT IF THE CAVEAT THAT THE TENTATIVE PLAN DOESN'T COMPLY WITH THE LEASE.
DO YOU REMEMBER HOW WE DISCUSSED THE LEASE? YES, BUT I THOUGHT WE DETERMINED THAT THEY WERE WITHIN THAT LIMIT COURT.
THEY, THEY CAN BUILD SOME RESIDENTIAL AND THE QUESTION IS HOW MUCH RESIDENTIAL, THE QUESTION IS WHERE THEY CAN BUILD IT.
THERE'S A LOT OF QUESTIONS ABOUT THE LEASE THAT WERE NOT ANSWERED ON MONDAY NIGHT THAT HAVE TO BE NEGOTIATED BETWEEN THEIR ATTORNEY AND OUR ATTORNEY AND THE BOARD AND THE DEVELOPER THAT I'M NOT GONNA BE INVOLVED IN.
THEY WON'T, YOU KNOW, THE BOARD WILL DO THAT AT SOME POINT IN TIME.
BUT THE, THE, THE RECOMME OR THE, THE APPROVAL BY THE BOARD HAS A CONDITION ON IT THAT IF IT GETS TO A POINT TO WHERE WE CAN'T REDUCE THE NUMBER, WE CAN'T CREATE A BETTER LEASE ARRANGEMENT OR SOMETHING ELSE WITH THE DEVELOPER, THEN ZACH HAS THE AUTHORITY TO GET AN INJUNCTION TO KEEP THEM FROM BUILDING WHAT THEY'RE BUILDING.
THEY UNDERSTAND THAT IT WAS A TENTATIVE SKETCH THAT MET ALL THE REQUIREMENTS OF TENTATIVE SKETCH
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AND LEGALLY THEY NEEDED TO PASS IT, AS WE'VE ALL DISCUSSED BEFORE.AS FRUSTRATING AS THAT CAN BE FOR THIS PLANNING COMMISSION AND FOR THE BOARD, THAT'S THE SITUATION.
THEY, YOU KNOW, THEY LEGALLY HAD TO ADOPT THIS BECAUSE THEY WERE UNDER, THEY WERE ALSO UNDER AN NBC CLOCK.
IF THEY DIDN'T APPROVE IT BY AUGUST 31ST, IT COULD BE A DEEMED APPROVAL.
AND THAT COMES WITH A WHOLE LOT OF OTHER ISSUES.
SO WAS WAS IT UNANIM MS VOTE? THERE WERE ONLY FOUR PEOPLE THERE.
WELL, BUT YES, BUT IT WAS ALL FOUR BECAUSE WE WERE THREE TO TWO.
BECAUSE I I SEATTLE HAD QUESTIONS ABOUT THE RIGHT, AND, AND THERE ARE STILL, AND THERE ARE STILL QUE AND I THINK I, I'M NOT SPEAKING FOR THE BOARD BY ANY STRETCH, BUT I, I THINK THEIR UNDERSTANDING WAS THAT FROM A LEGAL STANDPOINT, THE TENTATIVE SKETCH MET THE REQUIREMENTS OF THE ORDINANCES AND THEY DIDN'T HAVE REALLY A CHOICE BUT TO PASS IT.
BUT THERE IS THE CONDITION OF ENFORCING THE LEASE AND THE LEASE NEEDS TO BE ENFORCED.
UNLESS SAY WHAT? UNLESS THEY NEGOTIATE AND WE AGREED TO THE, THE CHANGES.
IF, IF, IF THEY NEGOTIATE AND CHANGE THE LEASE IN WHATEVER FASHION AND THE BOARD OF SUPERVISORS WANTS THE NUMBER REDUCED AS WELL.
THERE WAS NO DISCUSSION OF A NUMBER OR THERE WAS NO, OBVIOUSLY NO COMPROMISE TO ME TO WHAT THAT NUMBER WOULD BE.
I DON'T KNOW WHERE IT'S GOING TO GO.
THAT'S A QUESTION FOR THE ATTORNEYS TO HANDLE.
BUT THERE WAS A, THERE WAS A DISCUSSION OF A REDUCTION OF THE NUMBER OF UNITS.
BUT I THINK I WOULD COMMENT THAT EVEN THOUGH, YOU KNOW, WE VOTED AT A THREE TO TWO RATE.
I THINK THE ISSUE IS, IS THAT I THINK WE ALL HAVE ISSUES AS SHE'S ADDRESSING.
BUT IN TERMS OF THE TENTATIVE PLAN REQUIREMENT THAT MEETS THE ORDINANCES, UM, THAT'S KIND OF WHERE WE, WHERE WE SPLIT THE, THE, THE CONCEPTS HERE.
AS JEFF SAID THAT, THAT THE BOARD SAID, YES, YOU BET THE REQUIREMENTS OF THE TENTATIVE PLAY.
HOWEVER, THERE ARE OTHER MORE IMPORTANT ISSUES AND, AND I'M, I'M THAT NEED TO BE DEALT WITH.
I'M, I'M NOT AN ATTORNEY, BUT ONE THING THAT ZACH DID SAY WAS THAT YOU CAN'T HOLD UP A TENTATIVE SKETCH REQUIREMENT.
YOU CAN'T HOLD UP A TENTATIVE SKETCH PLAN BASED ON A PRIVATE AGREEMENT BETWEEN THE TOWNSHIP AND SOMEBODY ELSE.
SO WHAT THEY CAN DO THOUGH IS IF THEY CAN'T MOVE FORWARD PAST THIS POINT UNTIL THEY COME TO SOME LEASE ARRANGEMENT OR REARRANGEMENT OF THE LEASE OR SOME OTHER AGREEMENT ON THE PARCEL.
OKAY, SO, SO THE SUPERVISORS TOLD THIS LADY TO COME HERE TONIGHT.
WHAT FOR? WELL, THEY TOLD THEM, I'M NOT SURE IT WAS SPECIFICALLY TONIGHT, BUT GENERALLY TO COME TO THE PLANNING COMMISSION BECAUSE THAT'S WHERE YOU HAVE MORE OF AN OPPORTUNITY TO SPEAK ABOUT THINGS.
I BASICALLY, WE AT THE MEETING WE HAD TWO MONTH A MONTH AGO OR NO SIR, NOT I, I THE FIRST UH, I REALLY STARTED WAS THE SUMMER WHEN WE CAME AND THE GENTLEMAN THAT'S THAT BOUGHT THE PROPERTY DID A PRESENTATION HERE.
UH, THE SUPERVISORS, I DON'T THINK WERE HERE.
NO, THEY, ON JULY 31ST, THEY DID HAVE A MEETING BETWEEN THE DEVELOPER AND SOME RESIDENTS IN HERE.
I AND THAT WAS, THAT WAS PART OF THE, UH, OUR KIND OF CAVEAT WAS THAT THEY ENSURE THAT THEY MEET WITH THE RESIDENTS TO PURSUE ALL OF THEIR, OR UNDERSTAND ALL OF THEIR CONCERNS.
AND THAT DIDN'T GO UP WELL, DIDN'T THEY? ANY MONEY DIFFERENT? I'M NOT GONNA PUT WORDS IN MR. ROCKY'S MOUTH, BUT MR. ROCKY SAID IT WENT OKAY.
THE DEVELOPER SAID IT WENT OKAY.
I WAS, AGAIN, I DO NOT ATTEND THOSE MEETINGS WHEN IT'S BETWEEN THE DEVELOPER AND THE RESIDENCE BECAUSE AS REPRESENTING THE TOWNSHIP, I'M NOT IN THERE TO ENFORCE PROMISES OR TO MAKE PROMISES.
I HAVE TO SAY, I HAVE TO HONESTLY SAY WE WERE ALL POLITE.
UM, I DON'T THINK THERE WAS ANY, YOU KNOW, I UNDERSTAND THEY BOUGHT THE PROPERTY AND THEY WANNA MAKE MONEY.
IT'S JUST THE AMOUNT OF HOUSING IN THAT LITTLE AREA IS, IS A CONCERN FOR A LOT OF US.
BUT WHEN YOU HAD THE MEETING, DID YOU GO AWAY FEELING ANY DIFFERENT? NO, I THINK THAT THEY LISTEN WELL, MR. YOU'RE GONNA HAVE TO COME UP.
ALRIGHT, I'LL GO, I'LL SIT AND LET CINDY COME UP THEN.
I THINK CINDY RAKI 1, 3, 4, WHATEVER.
BUT THEY MADE YOU NO PROMISES.
NO, THEY DIDN'T MAKE ANY PROMISES.
I, SO THAT'S WHY I WAS LOOKING FORWARD TO THE SUPERVISOR'S MEETING AND THEY DID TWO THINGS.
UM, THERE WAS A PATH BETWEEN THE, UH, BUILDINGS AND THE HOUSES ON NORWOOD'S SIDE AND THEY SAID THEY WOULDN'T PUT THAT PATH BECAUSE THAT WAS VERY CLOSE TO THEIR PROPERTY LINE.
AND THEN THERE WERE THOSE NICE OAK TREES OUT FRONT.
THERE ARE, I'M PRETTY SURE THERE ARE,
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THERE'S PINE BIG PINES TO OH, AM I ALLOWED TO SPEAK? I DON'T KNOW.I DON'T THINK THEY'RE KEEPING THE PINES.
NO, THEY'RE KEEPING THE BIG TREES.
THEY DID CHANGE THE PLANS LIGHTLY TO UM, REARRANGE THE PARKING IN FRONT.
'CAUSE THEY HAD PARKING ACROSS THE FRONT.
THERE'S NO MORE PARKING IN FRONT.
THANK YOU FOR POINTING THAT OUT TO ME TODAY.
AND THERE'S, UM, AND TO KEEP THE, THE FOUR OAK TREES THAT ARE ALONG THE FRONT PROPERTY AND THEY TOOK OUT ALL THE PARKING.
SO NOW THERE'S NO EXTRA PARKING.
THERE'S JUST THE PARKING AND THAT'S NOT A GOOD THING.
RIGHT? WELL, BECAUSE NOW IT'S GONNA BE ALL ON OUR STREET PARK.
WELL, LET'S MR. LET, LET'S TEMPER THAT A LITTLE BIT.
THAT PLAN STILL MEETS THE PARKING REQUIREMENT OF TWO PER UNIT.
THEY HAVE A, A PARKING, THEY HAVE TWO GARAGE SPACES.
SO WHILE MISS SIRI'S OPINION IS THAT THEY'RE GOING TO BE PARKING ON THE STREET AND THERE'S GONNA BE A LOT OF ACCESS PARKING, THEY MEET OUR REQUIREMENT.
BUT ONE OF THE, ONE OF THE, ONE OF THEIR ARGUMENTS FOR THAT PARKING SPACE OUT FRONT WAS IF THEY BUILD THIS LITTLE PARK AND STILL THEY WANTED PEOPLE TO HAVE A PLACE TO PARK.
AND AGAIN, THAT'S A DIFF THAT'S ANOTHER ISSUE AS WELL.
WE'RE NOT HERE TO DEBATE THAT PLAN.
I'M JUST SAYING THAT'S THE PARKING ISSUE.
THIS PLAN, THE PLAN THAT THEY SHOW DOES STILL SHOW I THINK 10, 12 SPOTS UP FRONT FOR THE PARKING.
AND, AND THE QUESTION THERE IS WE WANT THAT TO BE A PRIVATE, WE WANT THAT TO BE SEPARATE FROM THE HOA.
BUT, BUT THAT'S, AGAIN, THESE ARE THE QUESTIONS THAT YOU BROUGHT UP.
LIKE, HEY, YOU NEED TO DO THIS ON THE NEXT ITERATION OF THE PLAN.
AND, AND, AND THAT'S WHAT THEY'RE DOING.
THEY NEED TO GET PAST THIS STEP.
AND NOW THEY NEED TO GET PAST THE LEASE ARRANGEMENT, WHICH I KNOW WE'VE BEEN SAYING ALL ALONG.
AND AND THEY'RE STILL WORKING THROUGH THAT, BUT INCLUDING THE OPEN SPACE THEY WANT TO ATE.
THAT ALL HAS TO BE, I THAT WAS MY ARGUMENT.
MAY I, CAN I REMEMBER ONE THING? YOU, YOU JUST NEED TO COME UP TO THE MIC.
WE DON'T HAVE, YOU DON'T HAVE TO RUN AWAY.
YOU CAN STAY ALL, I'LL STAY UP WITH THEM.
WHAT I DO REMEMBER FROM THE MEETING WAS THAT THEY SAID THEY WILL PUT 51 TOWN HOMES THERE, BUT IT'S UP.
THEY COULD GO UP AS HIGH AS 60.
SO IF YOU DON'T LIKE US, YOU MAY GET SOMEONE THAT WILL COME IN AND PUT 60, WHICH COULD BE TRUE.
BUT THAT'S KIND OF LIKE, THAT'S REALLY JUST THE DEVELOPER'S TACTIC.
BUT THAT'S, YOU KNOW, THERE'S NOTHING ON THE BOOKS FOR 60 RIGHT NOW.
BUT THAT WAS WHAT THE MEETING THEY TOLD US.
AND I, THEY THEY CAN PROBABLY COME BACK AND SAY WE WANT BUILD A FIVE STORY APARTMENT BUILDING.
I MEAN THAT'S, WELL THAT'S NOT, BUT THEY DO HAVE THE ABILITY TO BUILD EXTREME.
I UNDERSTAND THEY DO HAVE THE ABILITY UNDER PROFESSIONAL BUSINESS OFFICE TO BUILD MORE OFFICE BUILDINGS.
I WOULDN'T MIND AN OFFICE BUILDING.
WE DON'T MIND AN OFFICE BUILDING.
THAT'S THAT ENTIRE COMPLEX THAT, BUT THAT'S FINE BECAUSE THEN THEY'RE, THEY'RE GONE WITH THE EXTRA PEOPLE AND THE EXTRA PARKS THAT THEY'RE GONNA HAVE.
THEY SHOWED BOCCE BALL AND THEY SHOWED ALL THIS KIND OF STUFF, WHICH SOUNDS NICE, BUT IT'S GONNA BRING TRAFFIC AND MORE PEOPLE AND OFF.
I MEAN I, WHEN I MOVED IN THERE, IT WAS AN OFFICE SPACE AND I KNEW THE APARTMENT, THE ORIGINAL MONTCLAIR SCHOOL WAS APARTMENT BUILDING.
BUT YOU KNOW, OFFICE BUILDINGS HAD THE SAME ISSUE AS THERE ARE PEOPLE COMING TO WORK AND PEOPLE
WE HAD AN OFFICE BUILDING NEAR AND IT WAS CONTROLLED MORNING, AFTERNOON.
WELL LOOK AND, AND THOSE ARE QUESTIONS THAT, THAT WE CAN'T SOLVE RIGHT NOW.
I KNOW THAT, THAT WE, WHILE CERTAINLY EXPRESS YOUR OPINION TO THEM OF WHAT YOU WANNA SEE DOWN THERE AND WHAT YOU WANNA SEE HAPPEN.
THERE'S A LOT OF QUESTIONS AND AND NONE OF THEM CAN WE ANSWER RIGHT NOW BECAUSE WE ONLY HAVE THE PLANS THAT ARE IN FRONT OF US.
AND, AND I'M HERE BECAUSE THAT'S, THEY KIND OF SAID, SO I APPRECIATE YOU GUYS LISTENING.
AND THAT'S WHAT THIS PLANNING COMMISSION AND WE'LL GET INTO A LITTLE BIT MORE OF A DISCUSSION ABOUT THIS OVER RULES AND REGULATIONS IS HERE TO BE SORT OF MORE OF A FREEFORM THING.
THE BOARD OF SUPERVISORS IS REALLY LIMITED IN THE TIME THAT THEY CAN ALLOW PEOPLE TO SPEAK.
SO THAT'S, I THINK WAS MORE OF THEIR SUGGESTION IS WHEN THE PLAN IS IN FRONT OF, WHEN A PLAN THAT YOU DON'T LIKE OR YOU WANT TO COMMENT ON IS IN FRONT OF THIS BOARD, IS THE TIME TO COME AND SPEAK TO THEM OR ANYTHING.
THEY DON'T, IT'S GONNA COME UP AGAIN.
THEN IT WILL AT THIS POINT, WHAT WILL HAPPEN NEXT IS ASSUMING THE LEASE ARRANGEMENT GETS WORKED OUT SOMEHOW, LET'S JUST ASSUME THAT THAT HAPPENS.
THEY WILL COME BACK WITH A PRELIMINARY PLAN AND THAT PLAN IS GONNA BE A FULLY ENGINEERED SET SHOWING ALL OF THE STORM WATER, ALL OF THE PARKING AND ALL, EVERYTHING THAT'S REALLY NOT ON A TENTATIVE SKETCH.
AND THAT WILL COME TO US AND WE WILL REVIEW IT AGAINST THE TECHNICAL PARTS OF THE
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ORDINANCE THAT, THAT APPLY TO IT.AND THEN WE WILL BRING THAT, ONCE THAT'S COMPLETED AND WE'VE WRITTEN THOSE REVIEWS, WE WILL BRING IT BACK TO THIS PLANNING COMMISSION AND THEY WILL LOOK AT IT, THEY WILL LOOK AT OUR LETTERS AND THEY WILL REVIEW THEM AND THEY WILL HAVE QUESTIONS AND TOM WILL SAY, WELL WHAT ARE YOU DOING TO ALLEVIATE THIS PROBLEM? AND JOE WILL GO, HOW ARE YOU FIXING THIS? AND, AND, AND AND JERRY WILL GO, WELL, WHAT'S THE BUILDING GONNA LOOK LIKE? 'CAUSE HE'S AN ARCHITECT.
SO I MEAN, I'M JUST MAKING ASSUMPTIONS, I'M JUST MAKING JOKES.
BUT THEY WILL ASK THEIR QUESTIONS AND THEY WILL GET TO SOME, YOU KNOW, SOME POINTS THAT YOU, YOU WERE BRINGING UP AND, AND THEN THEY WILL MAKE A RECOMMENDATION ONE WAY OR THE OTHER.
AND THEN IT WILL GO TO THE BOARD OF SUPERVISORS AND THE BOARD OF SUPERVISORS WILL AGAIN LISTEN TO YOUR TALK AT DURING THE PUBLIC COMMENT PERIOD.
AND THEN THEY WILL MAKE THEIR DETERMINATION DURING THE MEETING.
YOU KNOW, THIS PROCESS SOMETIMES GETS A LITTLE FRUSTRATING BECAUSE YOU GOTTA HAVE THAT TENTATIVE PLAN AND YOU GOTTA MOVE IT FORWARD TO SEE THE DETAILS.
THEY'RE NOT GONNA GIVE YOU ALL THE DETAILS.
THEY DON'T KNOW ALL THE DETAILS UNTIL THAT GETS APPROVED.
NOW WE'RE GONNA GET MORE DETAILS AND WE'RE GONNA SEE THE TRAFFIC ISSUES AND THE RAINWATER ISSUES AND YOU KNOW, WE'RE GONNA SEE ALL THOSE ISSUES AND HOPEFULLY NOT, HOPEFULLY OUR EXPERTS HERE, LIKE BRIAN WILL TELL US, HEY, THIS WORKS OR IT AIN'T GONNA WORK, OR HERE'S WHAT WE WOULD RECOMMEND TO FIX IT.
AND UM, AND THEN WE'RE GONNA TAKE THAT ALL INTO ACCOUNT.
BUT I THINK IT DOES GET FRUSTRATING 'CAUSE YOU'D LIKE TO SEE IT STOP NOW.
BUT I I DON'T LEGALLY IT HAS TO.
I JUST APPRECIATE YOU HEARING AND I JUST WISH MORE PEOPLE THAT WERE AT THE MEETING MONDAY WERE HERE OR WELL, WE, WE, FROM OUR MEETING A MONTH AGO, WHATEVER IT WAS, JULY I GUESS IT WAS, WE, WE UNDERSTAND THE PASSION DOWN THERE.
WE REALLY, REALLY MANY COMING THE FIRST TIME.
YEAH, IT WAS A GOOD, I MEAN WE, WE PUT WHAT A GOOD TWO, TWO AND A HALF HOURS INTO IT.
WE PUT A LOT OF EFFORT INTO THAT ONE.
SO, AND WE, WE HAD THREE TO TWO VOTES SO IT WAS NOT A SLAM DUNK LIKE ANY MEASURE.
AND UM, SO ANYHOW, WE, WE UNDERSTAND YOUR PASSION.
THERE'S GONNA BE SOMETHING THERE AND RIGHT.
I YOU'RE SAYING ONE OR TWO RESIDENTIAL HOUSES, THAT'S KIND OF, I MEAN THERE WAS A SCHOOL THERE, WHICH IS, I'M NOT SAYING ONE OR TWO.
AND THERE WAS TWO CONSULTING FIRMS. IT WAS AN ENGINEERING FIRM AND THERE WAS AN ACCOUNTING FIRM.
AND THEY HAD A LOT OF PEOPLE IN THAT BUILDING.
NOW GRANTED, THEY WEREN'T THERE DURING THE WEEKEND OR UNLESS SOMEBODY COULDN'T SLEEP WELL OR WHATEVER, CAME BACK TO WORK.
BUT FOR THE MOST PART DURING TAX TIME,
IT SO IT WAS, IT WASN'T, IT WASN'T LIKE A RESIDENCE.
WELL THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR, FOR, FOR PLEASE KEEP UP, YOU KNOW, KEEP COMING.
I KNOW IT'S, WE HAVE TO BE HERE AND WE'RE RESIDENTS TOO, SO COME ON ON HERE.
I WALKED IN, I'M LIKE, THERE'S NOBODY HERE.
WELL WE'RE YEAH, PLEASE, PLEASE COME BACK.
WE'LL, WE'LL A LOT MORE DIS A LOT MORE DISCUSSIONS.
SO, UM, UM, THANK YOU FOR THAT LOT, LOT, A LOT OF QUESTIONS ABOUT THAT ONE.
AND I KNOW IT'S, IT'S A PASSIONATE ONE ANYWAY.
[GENERAL DISCUSSION ITEMS]
UH, THE MEETING MINUTES, THEY'RE ATTACHED TO THE AGENDA.WELL THEY'RE, THEY'RE NOT, UM, I HAVE, WHAT IS THAT POST? IT'S MAY 21.
I HAVE A LITTLE POST VACATION BRAIN FOG WHEN I DID THIS AGENDA ON MONDAY.
SO THE, IT SAYS THE MEETING MINUTES FROM MAY 21ST, 2025.
AND THOSE ARE ACTUALLY THE MINUTES ATTACHED.
BUT THOSE MINUTES HAVE ALREADY BEEN APPROVED.
OH YEAH, I, FOR THE NEXT MEETING, I WILL TABLE THIS FOR NOW AND FOR THE NEXT MEETING WE'LL APPROVE THE JULY 16TH BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT IT SHOULD BE.
DOES ANYBODY WANT TO COMMENT ON THE LATE 21 MINUTES? APPROVED? OKAY.
THE RIGHT ONES WERE ATTACHED TO WHAT YOU SENT, UH, BY EMAIL, CORRECT.
BUT THAT'S NOT WHAT PRINT HERE.
BUT THAT'S THE PACKET IS THE CORRECT, UH OH, THE PACKET DOES CORRECT.
IIII DO NOT KNOW WHAT, WHAT IS IT, WHAT HAPPENED? I GUESS I PRINTED THE WRONG PACKET.
I MUST HAVE PRINTED THE WRONG PACKET.
STILL A POST VACATION BRAIN FOG.
OKAY, SO LET'S MOVE ON THEN TO THE, UH, TO WHAT BRIAN'S HARD WORK HERE ACTUALLY WE'RE GONNA DO RICH PIKE ZONING.
UM, THE CONTINUATION OF OUR, OUR PREVIOUS DISCUSSION.
WHAT'S THE LATEST ON THE CAR WASH? THE CAR WASH IS AN APPLICATION.
IT UM, THE APPLICATION WILL BE PROCESSED TOMORROW AND IT WILL BE IN FRONT OF YOU PROBABLY SOMETIME, EITHER MAYBE SEPTEMBER, PROBABLY IN OCTOBER.
SO THAT, THAT'S, THAT APPLICATION IS THERE.
AND WHERE IS THAT? YOU KNOW WHERE THE, THE LIDLE SHOPPING CENTER IS? YES.
YOU KNOW THE FORMER WEST JACKSON? WEST JACKSON.
[00:25:01]
LONGER IN BUSINESS AT THAT LOCATION.I THINK HE'S DOWN IN LIMERICK.
THEY MERGED WAYNE CARL AND HE BOUGHT A GENTLEMAN BOUGHT, UH, WEST JACKSON AND UH, COMBINED IT WITH WAYNE CARL IN LIMERICK.
SO THE WEST JACKSON SITE IS NOW THE CAR WASH BEING ASKED TO BE A SPOTLESS CAR WASH.
AND ACTUALLY IF YOU THINK ABOUT IT, THE CAR WASH JUST CLOSED UP ON LEWIS ROAD, BUT THAT'S REOPENING IF SOMEBODY BOUGHT THAT, SOMEBODY BOUGHT THAT TO REMODELING.
THEY ARE WHAT'S CAR WASH? THEY NEED A TWO STORY CAR WASH.
I DON'T KNOW THINGS BUT IT'S GONNA BE LUXE CAR WASH.
YEAH, THEY'RE, THEY'RE BUILDING THAT.
I WAS THINKING THAT'S WHY I KNOW THERE'S A BIG PUSH FOR CAR WASHES IN THIS AREA.
I'VE HEARD LIKE DIFFERENT COMPANY.
I THINK THAT'S A SONG, ISN'T IT? YEAH.
UM, WHAT ABOUT THAT WHITE APARTMENT BUILDING THERE? IS THAT AFFECTED AT ALL BY THIS? UH, THE ON BETWEEN THE BANK AND THE WEST JACKSON? THAT IT'S JUST WHITE HOUSE.
IT'S JUST AN EXISTING NON-CONFORMING, BUT THAT'S NOT PART OF THIS THING.
I THOUGHT THEY, I ASSUME THEY WERE GONNA TAKE THAT TOO.
I MEAN THE IDEA HERE IS TO GET RID OF NONCONFORMING USES BUT, UM, BECAUSE THAT'S A REAL NON, MOST PEOPLE DON'T EVEN KNOW EXACTLY.
I MENTIONED TO PEOPLE ABOUT THE CAR WASH, YOU KNOW, DIFFERENT PEOPLE LIVE IN THE COMMUNITY.
THEY SAY WHAT HOUSE? I SAID THERE'S A BIG WHITE HOUSE HERE WITH THREE OR FOUR APARTMENTS IN IT.
NOBODY NOTICES 'CAUSE IT'S ALL BUSINESSES AROUND IT.
BUT THERE'S THIS APARTMENT BUILDING.
ALRIGHT, SO RICH BY QUARTER, JUST TO REFRESH YOUR MEMORY, AFTER LAST TIME WE TALKED ABOUT AN A LAND USE ANALYSIS THAT'S IN GRAY HERE.
AND ADJACENT MUNICIPALITY IS WHAT THEY DID.
WHAT WE DIDN'T GET TO WAS THE OTHER AREA ZONE IS NC CRSC AND ACTUALLY VCO IN THE TOWNSHIP.
AND THEN WHAT WE SORT OF, THE REAL HIGH LEVEL AT THIS POINT IS JUST CHANGES TO THE EXISTING ZONING OR REZONING IT AND SORT OF THAT'S WHERE OUR SCOPE IS.
UM, SO WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE TOWNSHIP, YOU CAN SEE THE BIG NUMBER ONE UP THERE.
THAT'S RIDGE PIKE, THAT'S THE COMMERCIAL ZONING.
IT'S PROBABLY ONE OF OUR LARGEST COMMERCIAL AREAS.
IT'S THE BIGGEST COMMERCIAL CORRIDOR.
I'D SAY THE, THE OAKS MARKETPLACE IS A BIGGER, IN TERMS OF LAND AREA, BUT IT'S, IT IS REALLY THE BIGGEST COMMERCIAL CORRIDOR IN THE TOWNSHIP.
UM, YOU CAN SEE NUMBER TWO IS A SMALL AREA AT SECOND BETWEEN GAY AND UNION THAT IS ACTUALLY ZONED, UM, UH, NC NEIGHBORHOOD CONVENIENCE COMMERCIAL AND LOOKING AT THAT, WELL FIRST OF ALL, THIS IS THE RIDGE PIKE, UM, AREA THAT WE TALKED ABOUT.
THIS IS JUST A SLIDE, YOU KNOW, JUST FROM THE LAST ONE THAT'S BUT JEFF, JEFF, CAN I JUST, YEAH, BUT THERE'S SO MUCH I GO BY THERE A LOT.
NOT, NOT AS MUCH AS JERRY OBVIOUSLY, BUT I MEAN JUST, IT'S SUCH DIVERSE THAT'S THERE.
AND THAT HOW DO WE, HOW DO WE CLEAN THAT UP? I MEAN, WELL, AND THEN THAT'S SOMETHING WE NEED TO TALK ABOUT.
I WANT TO GO THROUGH THE, THE OTHER AREAS OF, OF COMMERCIAL JUST TO SORT OF SHOW YOU WHAT THEY ARE.
AND THEN WE'LL TALK ABOUT THAT.
SO WHEN, WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE SECOND AVENUE BETWEEN GAY AND UNION STREETS, IT'S JUST, IT'S A LOT OF NON-CONFORMING.
NONE OF IT IS NEIGHBORHOOD CONVENIENCE COMMERCIAL.
IT IS, UM, IT LOOKS LIKE SOME INDUSTRIAL SITES DOWN HERE IN THE, IN, UM, IN, IN THE, IN THE MIDDLE HERE.
YOU'VE GOT AN APARTMENT BUILDING IN HERE.
UH, ANOTHER I I THINK IT'S AN AUTO REPAIR PLACE.
NO, IT'S A, UM, I KNOW THE GUY THAT OWNS THAT BUILDING.
IT'S A, UH, IT'S A WINDOW COMPANY.
BUT EITHER WAY, THESE ARE NOT NEIGHBORHOOD CONVENIENCE COMMERCIAL BUSINESSES.
SO THIS IS LIKE, WHILE IT ZONED, THEN NOTHING CONFORMS TO IT.
THEN YOU HAVE THESE BOTH THAT BUILDING WE JUST TALKED ABOUT AND THE ONE ON THE LEFT HERE, THE BOTTOM, THE BIG ONE, THOSE WERE BOTH, UH, FORMER AUTO DEALERSHIPS.
ARE THEY REALLY INTERESTING? MAYBE AT THAT POINT THAT'S WHY THEY WERE NC COMMERCIAL.
UM, BUT AGAIN, NC COMMERCIALS REALLY SUPPOSED TO BE GEARED TOWARDS CONVENIENCE, RETAIL, PERSONAL SERVICE, THAT TYPE OF USE.
NONE OF THESE FIT THAT, THAT DEFINITION.
SO THEN WHEN YOU GO TO, UM, NUMBER THREE, THAT'S THE WAWA AND, UH, THERE'S A DAYCARE, UH, THERE'S THE BANK AND, AND IN THERE THERE'S A, A LITTLE BIT OF STRIP MALL THAT HAS A FEDEX KINKO'S.
I DON'T THINK THEY CALL IT KINKO'S ANYMORE, BUT IT WILL ALWAYS BE KINKO'S IN MY MIND.
UM, THERE'S A, I THINK A, A WING STOP OR A, A WS A RESTAURANT IN THERE.
THIS GENERALLY FITS THE NATURE OF NEIGHBORHOOD CONVENIENCE COMMERCIAL OF NC OF WHAT'S SUPPOSED TO FOR A LARGER PARCEL IN AN NC ZONE.
THEN THE NEXT AREA WOULD BE AREA FOUR, WHICH IS, WE'RE PRETTY FAMILIAR WITH THE CRSZ ZONING FOR QUEST REDEVELOPMENT BECAUSE, AND I'M, I'M GIVING YOU BOTH ZONING DISTRICTS BECAUSE ALONG THE RIDGE PIKE
[00:30:01]
CORRIDOR, THERE'S CRSC ZONING WHERE THE TARGET AND GIANT IS, AND THE REST OF IT IS NC COMMERCIAL.SO I MEAN, THIS IS SORT OF A PRIME EXAMPLE OF WHAT WE WANT CRSC ZONING TO BE, UM, WITH, YOU KNOW, LARGER BOX RETAIL, THINGS LIKE THAT.
UH, YOU KNOW, AND NOW WE HAVE IT.
SO YOU CAN PUT RESIDENTIAL IN THERE BASED ON THE SIZE OF THE PARCEL.
NOTHING IN, IN, UM, A LONG RIDGE PIKE I DON'T THINK FITS THAT DEFINITION.
BUT IT, BUT THAT'S THE IDEA IS TO HAVE COMMUNITY AND REGIONAL SHOPPING CENTER.
AGAIN, MUCH LARGER SHOPPING FOOTPRINT.
UM, THEN WHEN YOU GO TO FIVE, THAT'S A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENT BECAUSE YOU'VE GOT NEIGHBORHOOD CONVENIENCE COMMERCIAL, WHICH IS THE OAK SHOPPING CENTER WITH THE WENDY'S, THE WAWA, THE BANK.
THERE'S UH, OAKS, ITALIAN DELI.
THERE USED TO BE AT MO'S, BUT NOW IT'S A QDOBA.
THERE'S A BUNCH OF STORES IN STRIP MALL.
AGAIN, THIS IS PROBABLY A PRIME EXAMPLE OF WHAT NC IS WRITTEN FOR AT THIS POINT IN TIME.
UM, YOU ALSO HAVE VILLAGE COMMERCIAL, WHICH IS A LITTLE BIT OF A HYBRID OF NEIGHBORHOOD CONVENIENCE, COMMERCIAL.
IT LOWERS THE, THE LOT AREA YOU CAN'T DO AS MUCH, BUT IT, IT MAKES THINGS A LITTLE BIT MORE WALKABLE.
IT TRIES TO MAKE THINGS SO THAT YOU CAN HAVE RESIDENTIAL ON TOP OF RETAIL, UM, ON, ON SOME THINGS.
BUT AS YOU CAN SEE HERE, MOST OF IT'S UNDEVELOPED.
THIS IS WHERE YOU SEE THE NEST ON, ON EGYPT ROAD.
THERE'S NEST, THERE'S THE POST OFFICE.
POST OFFICE IS OBVIOUSLY NONCONFORMING USE, BUT IT'S BEEN THERE PROBABLY LONGER THAN ANY OF US.
UM, THERE'S, THERE'S ONE SMOKE SHOP.
THERE WAS ANOTHER SMOKE SHOP, BUT IT WENT OUT OF BUSINESS.
THERE'S THE ON THE UPPER LEFT, THE NEST.
THE NEST IS A HOME CHA, FOR LACK OF A BETTER TERM, KNOW WHAT IT IS.
WELL, MY WIFE LOVES THAT PLACE TOO.
IT'S GOOD PRODUCTS, BUT IT IS, IT IS JUST SORT OF HOME, YOU KNOW, A LOT OF THOSE WOOD PLAQUES THAT YOU GET.
YOU KNOW, THOSE THINGS THAT WORK THAT WE'RE NOT REALLY SHOPPING FOR BUT PLAY HARD, DIE YOUNG.
UM, YOU ALSO HAVE THERE YOU HAVE, WELL THE SMOKE SHOP AND THEN THERE'S THE GYMNASTICS PLACE.
AND, AND AGAIN, A LOT OF THESE BUSINESSES ARE SORT OF TRANSITIONING OUT NOW.
VCO SORT OF LOOKS AT THIS AND SAYS, WELL WHAT CAN WE DO IN TERMS OF BRINGING COMMERCIAL ALONG THIS CORRIDOR BY COMBINING DRIVEWAYS AND SUPPORTING THE, THE, THE MORE VILLAGE USES, THE MORE VILLAGE DENSITY BEHIND IT OF THE OAKS AREA AND THE, THE, LET'S SAY THE AREA BEHIND IT, WHICH IS UM, LAUREL LANE AND SOME OF THE OLDER SECTIONS OF THE TOWNSHIP AND OLDER DEVELOPMENT OF TOWNSHIP, BUT THEN IS ALSO PART OF THAT WHOLE AREA.
YOU HAVE THE OAKS OVER OAKS MARKETPLACE.
WHICH TARGET LOWE'S, BJ'S, ARNOLD'S EXPO CENTER.
NOW IT'S UM, I CAN'T REMEMBER THE OAKS, FILM OAKS, YEAH.
IT, IT IS AN EXTENSION OF ARNOLD IN MY MIND.
JUST NOT, UM, NOT WHAT THIS DOES IS IT CRSC YOU CAN DO IN THIS AREA.
AND WE'VE TALKED ABOUT REARRANGING AND REVISING CRSC FOR THIS BECAUSE IT DOESN'T REALLY APPLY AND IT'S HIGHLY TECHNICAL WITH THE AMOUNT OF AREA THAT'S DEDICATED TO CRSC USES SHOPPING CENTER USES VERSUS INDUSTRIAL USES.
AND WHEN YOU HIT A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF INDUSTRIAL OR A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF SQUARE FOOTAGE FOR COMMERCIAL AND SHOPPING CENTER, IT'S SUPPOSED TO COMPLETELY FLIP OVER THE SHOPPING CENTER.
I CAN TELL YOU THAT THE MATH ON THIS WILL NEVER HAPPEN.
IT JUST, IT NO MATTER HOW IT WORKS, IT WILL ALWAYS, THERE WILL ALWAYS BE UNDER 80% AND THAT'S JUST ACCOUNTING ON THEIR END.
BUT THERE IT IS A COMBINATION OF USES DOWN HERE THAT, THAT DON'T LEND ITSELF TO CRSC.
AND AGAIN, SOMETHING ELSE WE NEED TO SORT OF LOOK AT.
AND THEN LASTLY THERE IS THE, UM, THE NC ZONING AT MONTCLAIR, WHICH IS RIGHT AT THE BRIDGE.
YOU'VE GOT PRODUCE JUNCTION AND UH, LOCK 29 BOTH CONFORMING USES IN TERMS OF USE, NOT CONFORMING IN TERMS OF LOT AREA.
THEY'RE BOTH SMALLER LOTS THAN THEY SHOULD BE, BUT THEY, THEY'RE VIABLE BUSINESSES DOWN THERE AND THEY FIT WITHIN THE CURRENT ZONING.
WE CAN HAVE QUESTIONS ABOUT PRODUCE JUNCTION ON EASTER AND HOW BAD THEY SCREW UP THE ROADS AND LOT 29.
HOW UNDER PARK THAT IS WHEN YOU WANT TO GO EAT THERE.
THOSE ARE ALL VALID QUESTIONS, BUT FROM A ZONING STANDPOINT, THESE FIT THE ZONING THAT'S THERE.
UM, SO WHEN WE TALK ABOUT RICH BIKE AND
[00:35:01]
AS YOU BROUGHT UP TOM, THE QUESTION IS WHAT DO WE DO WITH THESE BROAD RANGE OF LOTS AND BROAD RANGE OF USES AND HOW, HOW DO WE HANDLE THAT? IT DOESN'T REALLY FIT INTO NC ANYMORE BECAUSE NC IS AGAIN TURNING INTO THE WAWAS AND THE STRIP MALLS AND THINGS LIKE THAT.THAT'S WHAT PEOPLE ARE BUILDING WHEN THEY GET A LARGE ENOUGH AREA.
BUT WE ALSO KNOW WE DON'T WANT RIDGE PIKE TO BECOME CRSC WHERE THEY HAVE THE ABILITY TO PUT SOME RESIDENTIAL WISDOM SHOPPING.
I MEAN THE MIXED USE IS GREAT BECAUSE IT, YOU KNOW, IT'S A LIVE WORK SORT OF ENVIRONMENT, BUT IT IS, IT'S NOT QUITE WHAT SHOULD BE IN THIS AREA AND IT IS NOT VIABLE FOR THIS TYPE OF ROADWAY.
SO I GUESS MY QUESTION TO THE PLANNING COMMISSION AT THE END OF ALL OF THIS SORT OF DISCUSSION ABOUT THE BACKGROUND IS DO YOU THINK IT'S BETTER TO LOOK AT REZONING EVERYTHING AND BECOMING A BRAND NEW ZONE? SOME, SOMETHING SIMILAR TO MAYBE A Y'S MIXED USE THAT DOESN'T HAVE THE APARTMENT ABILITY THAT THAT Y'S MIXED USE HAS THAT WE, WE LOOK AT SOMETHING LIKE THAT TO WHERE IT DOES BECOME BASED ON THE SIZE OF THE PARCEL AND, AND, AND SOME OTHER THINGS BASED ON THE PROXIMITY TO TO TO TOWNSHIP LINE ROAD.
AND MAYBE IT DOES BLEED INTO SOME SMALLER SCALE RESIDENTIAL AS YOU GET CLOSER TO TRAP.
OR DO YOU WANT TO SEE SOMETHING THAT, THAT ALTERS THE EXISTING ZONING AND MAYBE TAKES THE LARGE LOTS OUT OF THERE AND SAYS, WELL THOSE ARE GONNA BE CRSC WITHOUT THE RESIDENTIAL COMPONENT AND THEY CAN JUST BE BIG BOX AND THE SMALLER ONES WILL LET BE EXISTING NON-CONFORMING RESIDENTIAL WITH THE HOPE THAT THEY EVOLVE INTO SMALL SCALE PERSONAL OFFICE.
THAT HOWEVER WE DRAW THE LINES, WE KEEP CRSC OR SOME VERSION OF CRSC TOGETHER FOR THE LARGE PARCELS.
'CAUSE IF YOU LOOK IN THE CENTER, MOST OF THOSE LARGE PARCELS ARE ALL IN THE CENTER.
IT'S THE SORT OF THE STUFF ON THE OUTSIDE THAT BECOMES THE LOWER DENSITY OR THE LOWER AREA DEVELOPMENT AND LOWER AND THE, THE, THE USES ARE ARE LOWER, SMALLER PARCELS.
WHAT'S THE GREEN? THE GREEN IS, UM, PARCELS WITH MORE THAN ONE ACRE.
UM, THE, NO, I'M SORRY, THE GREEN OR PARCELS WITH LESS THAN ONE ACRE WITH A HALF ACRE, THEN THE RED IS ONE ACRE AND THE OTHER PARCELS ARE ALL THREE ACRES OR ABOVE.
SO WE TALKED ABOUT, WE TALKED ABOUT ON THE, UH, UM, UPPER SIDE OF, OF THIS PICTURE, UPPER SIDE OF, UM, UH, RIDGE PROTECTING ALL THAT OPEN SPACE, RIGHT? HOW DO WE DO THAT NOW? ALLOWING, ALLOWING MAYBE THE SAME SIZE LOTS THAT, THAT THESE OTHER UH, RED ONE, THAT RED ONE ALONG THE ROADWAY FOR SMALL BUSINESSES, UH, YOU KNOW, AUTO PARTS OR YOU KNOW, THAT THEY WERE OVER AT ONE TIME, BUT PROTECTING ALL THAT BACK THERE AND ALL THAT OVER HERE.
WHAT, WHAT, HOW DO WE PROTECT THAT? I THINK THAT'S WHAT WE ALL WANT TO DO, RIGHT? WE HAVE TO WRITE THE ORDINANCE THAT CREATES ENOUGH OF A BUFFER IN THE BACK FROM RESIDENTIAL.
IT JUST DEPENDS ON WHAT USES YOU WANT TO SEE ON THERE.
I I THINK YOU'RE GONNA HAVE TO SAY MORE THAN JUST INDIVIDUAL PROPERTIES BECAUSE I JUST DON'T THINK THAT ONE PROPERTY'S GONNA SELL OFF FIVE LOTS IN THE FRONT.
THEY'RE GONNA LOOK AT, AND WE WANNA HAVE SOME SORT OF DEVELOPMENT THAT IS AT LEAST WE DON'T WANNA HAVE FIVE DIFFERENT DRIVEWAYS.
WE DON'T WANT TO ENCOURAGE FIVE DIFFERENT DRIVEWAYS ALONG THE FRONTAGES.
WE WANT TO ENCOURAGE SOMETHING INTERNAL, BUT WE ALSO WANNA ENCOURAGE THEM TO PROTECT THE BACK AND TO, TO PROTECT, YOU KNOW, TO MOVE EVERYTHING UP TO RIDGE PIKE AND HAVE A BONUS OR HAVE A SOME OTHER SORT OF, YOU KNOW, STRUCTURE TO KEEP IT UPFRONT AND TO KEEP THE BACK AS OPEN AS POSSIBLE.
IF I UNDERSTAND THIS PICTURE OF THAT LARGE PARCEL WE'RE TALKING ABOUT, YEAH.
THE OTHER LINES I ASSUME ARE DELINEATE PARCELS THAT ARE OWNED, INDIVIDUALLY OWNED.
WELL WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE LARGE PARCEL AND YOU LOOK AT THE THREE LINES THAT ARE SORT OF IN THE MIDDLE, RIGHT? THAT THAT'S PICO, THAT DEFINES A PICO.
BUT NOW IS IS THAT OTHER? WHERE I WAS GOING IS, IS THAT OTHER LARGE PIECE TO THE RIGHT, IS THAT OWNED BY A SINGLE OWNER? YES.
SO MY POINT WHERE I'M GOING WITH THIS IS, YOU KNOW, HOW DO WE SAY WE'RE GONNA CUT YOUR PROPERTY, SLICE YOUR PROPERTY, YOU KNOW, ON FROM IN THE MIDDLE OF IT TO THE, TO RIDGE PIKE AND ZONED AT ONE ZONE.
AND THE UPPER PIECE IS A DIFFERENT YEAH, WE, WE REALLY CAN'T, WE CAN'T DO THAT.
I ASSUME WE HAVE, YOU DON'T WANNA SPLIT ZONES.
I MEAN THERE ARE SOME PROPERTIES OVER BY THE SELF STORAGE, WHICH IS THIS AREA HERE, THE WHITE BUILDING, THE THE, THE FOUR OR FIVE LINEAR BUILDINGS RIGHT HERE THO THESE PARCELS IN HERE ARE SPLIT ZONES.
SO IT'S NC IN THE FRONT AND R ONE IN THE BACK.
[00:40:02]
NOT THE BEST WAY TO DO IT, BUT WE CAN.AND BUT WHAT IF WE WANTED TO ENCOURAGE A, YOU KNOW, OPEN SPACE PRESERVATION IN THE BACK.
YOU HAVE TO GIVE DENSITY BONUSES AND BONUSES TO, AND TO SAY YOU CAN BUILD, BUT YOU HAVE TO BUILD WITHIN 500 FEET OR LET'S SAY HOWEVER DEEP LIDLE IS AT THIS POINT.
LET'S JUST USE THAT AS AN EXAMPLE THAT WE DRAW THE LINE ACROSS FROM LIONEL AND WE SAY EVERYTHING FROM THIS LINE FORWARD CAN BE DEVELOPED AND YOU CAN DEVELOP A HUNDRED PERCENT IMPERVIOUS COVERAGE AND YOU CAN BUILD X NUMBER OF STORIES THAT YOU'RE ENCOURAGING EVERYTHING TO COME UP FRONT IF THE BACK IS COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY UNTOUCHED.
I WAS GONNA SAY THAT, THAT MAY BE THE COMPROMISE.
BUT I, I WANNA ADD TO THAT, THAT POINT THOUGH.
COULD WE, COULD WE ACTUALLY DO, THAT'S WHAT I WAS TALKING ABOUT.
CAN WE SPLIT IT? THE LANGUAGE OF THE ZONING WOULD HAVE TO DRAW THAT DIMENSION, RIGHT? TO SAY WITHIN X NUMBER OF FEET WE CAN DETERMINE WHAT THAT DISTANCE IS OF THE ULTIMATE RIGHT OF WAY.
I'D LIKE TO DO, EXCEPT I'D LIKE TO ADD THE CAVEAT OF THAT, THAT DEVELOPMENT THERE THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT, THAT LINE, WHATEVER WE WANNA CALL IT, IS NOT RESIDENTIAL.
IT HAS TO BE THAT EVERYTHING ON THE DEVELOPED SIDE OF DEVELOP SIDE WOULD BE A BIT, WOULD NOT BE R ONE.
BECAUSE WE'RE TRYING TO STIMULATE COMMERCIAL, RIGHT? THAT CARD, WE WANT COMMERCIALS, RIGHT? WE WANT, YOU KNOW, NO BIG DEVELOPMENT, LIKE WE'RE FIGHTING HERE, YOU KNOW, WE WANT A 51 DEVELOPMENT, DON'T NEED MORE, MORE APARTMENTS OR WHATEVER.
IF WE PUT APARTMENTS IN THE ORDINANCE, WE'D HAVE FOUR APPLICATIONS TOMORROW.
RIGHT? OH, THAT'S WHAT I'M SAYING.
I LIKE THE THOUGHT OF CUTTING IN HALF AND CUTTING, WHATEVER THAT'S GONNA BE DETERMINED.
DEVELOPMENT OF COMMERCIAL FRONT PROTECTION IN THE BACK.
RIGHT NOW, HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT A HYBRID COMMERCIAL THAT IS SOMEWHAT INDUSTRIAL, LIKE A SELF STORAGE? LIKE, AND I'M NOT SAYING I'M IN FAVOR OF THIS BECAUSE PERSONALLY I'M NOT, REMEMBER THE KEY, KEY HOME PROPOSAL, WHICH WAS THIS PARCEL RIGHT HERE THAT UM, I'M SORRY, THIS LARGE PARCEL HERE THAT SUGGESTED PUTTING IN SORT OF FLEX INDUSTRIAL SPACE, RIGHT? AND WE APPROVED, WE NO, I THINK, I DON'T THINK WE MADE ANY RECOMMENDATION ON THE ZONING.
THE ZONING DID, BUT I MEAN THIS TENTATIVE PLAN, WE DID APPROVE, RIGHT? NO, NO, IT IT NEVER GOT THAT FAR.
BECAUSE I KNOW HE CAME IN HERE AND TALKED TO US ABOUT IT.
AND I HAD A PRESENTATION AND THEN THE PLANNING COMMISSION NEVER MADE A RECOMMENDATION.
WE WENT TO THE BOARD ANYWAY, THE BOARD AT THE TIME, WHICH IS A DIFFERENT, THEY'RE DIFFERENT BOARD MEMBERS NOW.
THEY CAME BACK AND SAID, WELL, WE'RE NOT SURE.
AND SO THE ATTORNEY PUT THE APP, PUT THE APPLICATION ON HOLD, SAID, WE'LL COME BACK, WE'RE GONNA TALK ABOUT OUR PLAN, WE'RE GONNA COME BACK TO YOU.
AND NOW IT'S BEEN FOUR YEARS AND THAT TECHNICALLY, LEGALLY THAT APPLICATION IS STILL OPEN AND THAT HEARING IS STILL OPEN.
BUT I I, OKAY, I I I UNDERSTOOD THAT A DIFFERENT WAY.
I GUESS I UNDERSTOOD THAT, THAT THAT THE OWNER DECIDED HE DIDN'T WANT TO MOVE FORWARD WITH THAT, THAT WE KIND OF GAVE HIM THE OKAY, GENERALLY.
THE OWNER SAID THAT THEY, BECAUSE THE BOARD HADN'T GRANTED THEM THE ZONING AT THIS POINT.
SO THEY, THEY WOULD PREFER PUT ON HOLD, BUT SO COULD WE PROTECT, COULD WE DO THE SAME THING ON THIS SIDE OF, UH, BRIDGE AND CUT THAT FROM WHATEVER THAT ROAD IS THERE OR WHATEVER.
WE CAN LOOK AT THAT DISTANCE AND SAY, LOOK, IF WE DRAW THIS LINE HERE AND ALL THE DEVELOPMENT, YOU KNOW, WE CAN'T TELL PEOPLE THEY CAN'T DEVELOP A PORTION OF THEIR PROPERTY, BUT WE CAN MAKE IT SO THAT IF YOU DEVELOP WITHIN X NUMBER OF FEET OF A RESIDENTIAL UNIT, YOU, YOUR IMPERVIOUS BECOMES SO LOW THAT IT DOESN'T, IT'S NOT BENEFICIAL TO IT THAT WE ENCOURAGE BY THE LANGUAGE TO MOVE IT FORWARD.
AND YOU GET THE BONUSES AND THAT'S WHAT DEVELOPERS WANT.
THEY WANT COMPACT DEVELOPMENT BECAUSE THAT'S LESS EXPENSIVE FOR THEM, RIGHT? SURE.
SO DO WE HAVE ENOUGH INDUSTRIAL RIGHT NOW? INDUSTRIAL BY THE WAY, MAY NOT NECESSARILY BE WHAT WE THINK OF WITH THE SMOKE STACKS OF DIRTY STUFF.
WE'RE TALKING ABOUT MAKING OUR OWN CHIPS NOW.
AND GETTING INTO THAT WHOLE, THAT'S CLEAN STUFF.
GENERALLY WE DO, BECAUSE IF YOU LOOK AT THE ZONING MAP OF THE TOWNSHIP, WHICH IS THIS ONE HERE, DEFINE IT.
DEFINE WHAT, WHAT IS PERMITTED IN, IF YOU CALL IT INDUSTRIAL, IT'S REALLY LIKE MANUFACTURING.
IT'S NOT, IF YOU LOOK ON THIS MAP, EVERYTHING ON THE VERY BOTTOM OF THE MAP, THE, THE DARK PURPLE AND THE LIGHTER PURPLE THAT IS INDUSTRIAL, THAT'S M1 AND M TWO.
SO A LOT OF THAT IS UNDERDEVELOPED.
A LOT OF IT IS DEVELOPED, BUT THERE IS A GOOD PORTION OF IT THAT IS UNDERDEVELOPED THAT, YOU KNOW, AT THIS POINT, I'M WILLING TO HOLD THE LINE ON THAT.
AND, AND I ONLY BRING IT UP JUST 'CAUSE I WANT TO, YOU KNOW, PUSH THE BOUNDARIES A LITTLE BIT OF WHAT YOU'RE THINKING FOR RIDGE PIKE, IF YOU'RE NOT THINKING QUASI INDUSTRIAL UP THERE, LOW LEVEL INDUSTRIAL.
[00:45:01]
AND I UNDERSTAND THAT.I THINK THAT'S A LOT OF TRAFFIC FOR RIDGE PIKE AND TOWNSHIP LINE THAT WE, WE DON'T NEED.
WELL AGAIN, I, I'D HAVE TO, I DON'T HAVE A CLEAR DEFINITION OF WHAT THAT IS AND, AND LOW, YOU KNOW, LOW MANUFACTURING VERSUS UH, UH, A BAKERY.
I DON'T KNOW WHAT THAT, HOW THAT ENTAILS.
I FEEL LIKE THESE GUYS WERE TALKING DOWN ON, WAS IT ARCOLA ROAD? UH, THE MEDICAL, YEAH, YEAH, MEDICAL.
IT'S A REAL LOW IMPACT KIND OF ASSEMBLY TYPE.
WELL, I JUST SAY THEY CAN HAVE THREE PEOPLE WORKING THERE AND STILL CALL IT A, YOU KNOW, YOU KNOW, THE PLACE WHERE I WORK NOW, I MEAN THEY JUST OPENED, A GUY OPENED UP, HE MAKES GUN BARRELS.
HE'S ONE GUY AND HE'S ALL HIS MACHINERY IN THERE.
HE'S DOING STUFF, BUT HE'S ONE GUY.
WELL, AND, AND I MEAN I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH THAT YET.
AND, AND LOOK, I HAVE A GENERAL SENSE OF WHERE YOU GUYS ARE RIGHT NOW, SO I CAN, I CAN SORT OF CRAFT SOME LANGUAGE AND COME BACK IN SEPTEMBER, OCTOBER DEPENDING ON WORKFLOW AND WE CAN, I CAN OUTLINE SOME THINGS AND SEE WHAT YOU THINK AND SHOW YOU SOME ON THE MAP, WHAT IT WOULD MEAN IF YOU'RE COMFORTABLE WITH THAT.
I, I GUESS WHAT I'D LIKE TO JUST MAKE SURE I UNDERSTAND IS THAT YOU ARE LOOKING FOR SORT OF A NEW ZONING IN THIS AREA.
I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, INDU, LIGHT INDUSTRIAL, AND AGAIN, THAT DEFINITION HAS TO BE DEFINED.
DEFINED OBVIOUSLY SMALL BUSINESS RETAIL, BUT NO, NO MORE, UH, DEVELOPMENT RESIDENTIAL.
AND KEEP THAT AND KEEP THAT OPEN SPACE.
THOSE OPEN SPACE ALONG THE BACK, ALONG THE BACK.
AND, AND ALSO IS THAT LOWER AREA'S OUTSIDE WE JUST TALKED ABOUT? YEAH.
I THINK I HAVE ENOUGH TO MOVE FORWARD WITH ELISE AND THEN YEAH, THAT'S A GOOD, THAT'S A GOOD PLAN.
YEAH, I THINK THAT'S, I THINK THAT'S ACTUALLY ACCOMPLISHING.
SO YEAH, AND I, I I WANTED YOU TO GET A SENSE OF WHAT NC LOOKED LIKE.
NC IS, UNFORTUNATELY IF I COULD TAKE, IF I WAS GOTTEN TO TAKE A PEN TO IT, I WOULD GET RID OF NC AND CHANGE SOME THINGS.
'CAUSE NC REALLY DOESN'T HELP US.
IT'S NOT REALLY A GREAT, AND VCO WHILE I WROTE IT IS NOT A GREAT DISTRICT.
IT'S LOOKING AT IT NOW, I THINK THERE'S THINGS AND THAT'S SIDE, SOME OF THE THINGS WE'LL TACKLE NEXT IS, IS LOOKING AT THOSE THINGS.
BUT FOR THIS DISTRICT, I THINK REWRITING IT TO SOMETHING NEW IS, IS THE BEST WAY TO, TO MOVE FORWARD WITH IT.
I THINK THAT WHEN YOU LOOK AT ALL SIX OF THESE, UM, MAYBE NOT NUMBER TWO, I MEAN, I DON'T THINK RESIDE BECAUSE IT'S ALL RESIDENTIAL AROUND THERE EXCEPT FOR THESE ODD BUSINESSES THAT ARE RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE.
BUT THE REST OF THEM PRETTY MUCH, WELL FIVE WOULD BE THE SAME THING TOO.
I DON'T THINK WE WANT RESIDENTIAL IN ANY OF THOSE.
NO, I, I AGREE WITH YOU THERE.
WE, YOU KNOW, WE WANT TO KEEP RESIDENT OUT OF ALL THOSE, ACTUALLY WE HAVE A LOT OF RESIDENTIAL RIGHT NOW.
I MEAN TO THAT FACT THE RESIDENTIAL IS COMING IN WHERE WE TALKED ABOUT IN THE COMPREHENSIVE PLAN.
AND WHILE YES, ONCE YOU GET OUT OF THE TOWNSHIP, 29 MIGHT BE A NIGHTMARE.
IT'S A NIGHTMARE DOWN BY BRIDGE STREET AS THEY'VE TALKED ABOUT.
YOU KNOW, IT, THAT'S THE ROAD IN THIS TOWNSHIP THAT CAN HANDLE SOME INCREASE IN TRAFFIC AS LONG AS WE CAN PAID THAT TO DO THEIR THING.
I MEAN YES, THERE'S CERTAINLY THINGS THAT NEED TO GO ALONG WITH THAT.
BUT, BUT THAT, THAT WAS GENERALLY THE IDEA BEHIND THE COMP PLAN IS TO PUT THE INFRASTRUCTURE, TO PUT THE NEW RESIDENTIAL UNITS THAT PEOPLE ARE GONNA ASK FOR WHERE THEY SHOULD NOT IN AREAS THAT ARE UNDER ROADWAY AND UNDER, YOU KNOW, THE ROADS AREN'T AS, AS WELL DEVELOPED WHETHER THE INFRASTRUCTURE'S NOT ALREADY THERE.
SO THAT'S AN JUST, JUST TO COMMENT, THE SUPERVISORS DID APPROVE, UH, DONATING SOME RIGHT OF WAY, UH, ACREAGE ALONG 29, 2, 2 PARCELS TO PENNDOT, UH, FOR ROAD IMPROVEMENTS.
SO IT'S PART OF THE Y SOME ACTIVITY GOING ON THERE, YY STATION AND THOSE IMPROVEMENTS, WE HAD TO GET SOME RIGHT OF WAY AND WE GAVE IT TO PENNDOT.
I THINK THAT'S WHAT WE WANNA STOP IS ANOTHER YS AND NOT NECESSARILY THE, THE THE ORIGINAL ONE, BUT THE NEW ONE THAT CAME OUT THE HIGH.
WHERE, YOU KNOW, THEY'RE GONNA TEAR DOWN THOSE HOUSES THAT ARE THERE I ASSUME AND BUILD, YOU KNOW, I DON'T THINK WE NEED 400 MORE UNITS SOMEWHERE ATTACH.
SO IF WE COULD STOP THAT, YOU KNOW, AND THERE MAYBE A SWEET SPOT.
THESE, THESE LADIES DON'T EVEN WANT TO 50.
I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE SWEET SPOT NUMBER IS.
AND SO NOW WHAT WE WILL, WHAT I'LL DO IS I'LL WORK TOWARDS, UM, THAT'S A GOOD, THAT'S A GOOD POINT OR GOOD, UH, YEAH, THAT'S A GOOD VISION.
IT'S A VERY GOOD VISION AND WHAT WE PUT THERE PLAN FOR WHAT MIGHT BE THERE TAKE A NUMBER OF YEARS.
I MEAN IT'S NOT GONNA HAPPEN TOMORROW AND THAT'S ALL RIGHT TOO.
RIGHT? WE HAVE THE STAKE IN THE GROUND.
[00:50:01]
RIGHT.WE DON'T HAVE, THIS IS WHAT, THIS IS WHAT SHE CAN DO AND THEY KNOW WHAT THEY CAN'T DO AND WHETHER IT TAKES TWO YEARS, FIVE YEARS.
WE DON'T HAVE A PART IN THE GROUND THAT'S RIGHT.
WITH THEIR LIMITS TO WHAT COULD BE DONE.
I THINK THAT'S ALL WE'RE TRYING TO DO.
NOT CAUSE ANY MORE COURTHOUSES FROM A PLANNING STANDPOINT.
WE'RE WORKING FROM A POSITION OF, OF COMFORT RIGHT NOW BECAUSE WE'RE NOT, WE'RE NOT DESPERATELY TRYING TO FILL EMPTY LAND THAT IS BLIGHTED OR OTHERWISE THAT WHERE WE'RE DESPERATE TO GET SOMETHING IN THERE.
AND, AND I THINK THAT'S ADVANTAGEOUS TO US AT THIS POINT TO MAKE THE DECISIONS WE WANT TO.
NOW WE MAY PUT THIS ZONING IN PLACE AND SOMEONE MAY COME IN WITH A PLAN AND SAY, LOOK, HERE'S WHAT I WANT TO DO INSTEAD.
AND YOU MAY GO, JEFF, WHY DIDN'T YOU THINK OF THAT? LET'S DO THAT.
I MEAN THAT HONESTLY HAPPENED RIGHT AFTER WE ADOPTED THE LAST COMPREHENSIVE PLAN.
SOMEONE CAME IN WITH A PLAN FOR MADISON APARTMENTS AND WE'RE LIKE, WELL, WHY DIDN'T WE THINK ABOUT PUTTING 'EM THERE WHEN THAT OPPORTUNITY COMES ABOUT, WE COULD DEAL WITH IT.
BUT RIGHT NOW YOU'RE DEALING IN A POSITION OF, OF OF RELATIVE AUTHORITY THAT YOU CAN, YOU CAN CONTROL WHAT'S GOING THERE BECAUSE WE'RE NOT DESPERATE TO PUT SOMETHING.
SO THERE'S SOME THERE'S SOMEWHAT OF A VISION.
JIM, I'VE BEEN, I'VE BEEN MEANING TO ASK YOU ABOUT, WE'RE ON ZONING AND, AND, AND OPEN SPACE AND ALL THAT NEAT STUFF.
I'VE BEEN MEANING TO ASK FOR MONTHS AND I KEEP FORGETTING AND I JUST THOUGHT OF IT IS, WHAT'S THE STORY ON THE PROPERTY ON THE CORNER OF ONE 13 IN BLACKROCK THERE? THAT, THAT JUNKYARD DEALER OR WHATEVER IT IS.
WHAT'S, WHAT'S IT'S, WHAT'S THAT ZONED WHAT WHAT IT IS ZONED R ONE.
IT'S, IT IS JUST A BEEN THERE FOREVER.
HE'S BEEN THERE FOR A LONG TIME.
IT IT, IT IS AN EXISTING NON-CONFORMITY AND IS HE HAS THE RIGHT TO EXIST.
WE CAN'T GO AFTER HIM FOR BEING IN NON-CONFORMITY.
HE CAN EXPAND HIS USE IF HE WERE ABLE.
I DON'T THINK HE CAN, I THINK HE'S PRETTY MUCH AT THE EDGES WITH HIS STUFF.
BUT IF HE WANTED TO EXPAND THERE'S LEGAL REQUIREMENTS, HE COULD GO GET A SPECIAL EXCEPTION FOR A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF EXPANSION.
I, AGAIN, I DON'T THINK HE'S GONNA BE DOING THAT.
'CAUSE I THINK HE'S BASICALLY USING THE ENTIRE PROPERTY FOR WHAT HE WANTS TO DO ANYWAY.
UM, IF HE WERE TO EVER ABANDON THAT USE IT COULDN'T COME BACK.
UM, IF HE WERE TO EVER MOVE, IT COULD SELL TO BE A RESIDENTIAL PROPERTY.
I DON'T, I HAVE TO CLEAN THE ENVIRONMENT UP A LITTLE BIT.
WELL, YEAH, I MEAN LET'S TALK, I MEAN, WE, WE DON'T WANNA GET INTO THE ENVIRONMENTAL ISSUES OF IT.
I MEAN THE, THE CHANCE OF OF THAT HAPPENING ARE PRETTY SLIM.
I MEAN, GENERALLY WHAT TENDS TO HAPPEN IS WHEN A, WHEN A LANDOWNER DOESN'T LIVE THERE ANYMORE OR THEY GIVE UP THE BUSINESS, THEY EITHER SELL THE BUSINESS AND STATE WHAT IT IS OR IT SLOWLY GETS INTO SOME DISREPAIR.
I MEAN, WE HAVE, HE BOUGHT ANOTHER LOCATION OVER IN, UH, I DON'T KNOW IF THAT'S LIMMERING.
HE BOUGHT ANOTHER LOCATION OVER THERE.
AND I THOUGHT MAYBE HE WAS GONNA MOVE EVERYTHING OVER THERE, BUT NO TALK ABOUT ANYTHING YOU HAVEN'T HEARD.
NO, I HAVEN'T HEARD ANYTHING LIKE THAT.
AND HE WOULD HAVE TO, HE WOULD'VE TO COME TO ME AND, AND SAY, I OFFICIALLY ABANDONED THIS USE.
WHICH I DON'T KNOW WHY HE WOULD EVER DO THAT.
WHY WOULD HE? I SUSPECT BUT HE CAN'T SELL IT.
HE CAN'T SELL IT AS HIS USE OR SOME TYPE OF USE? NO, HE CAN, SOMEONE IF YOU WANTED TO BUY IT AND USE IT AS A JUNKYARD, USE IT.
YOU COULD DO THAT EXACTLY AS HE'S USING IT NOW.
AND WHAT TENDS TO HAPPEN IN THAT CASE IS WHEN HE GOES TO SELL IT AND I GET WIND OF IT AND SOMEONE CALLS ME UP AND SAYS, HEY, I WANNA PUT A LANDSCAPE BUSINESS THERE.
I USUALLY SAY, YOU CAN'T BECAUSE THAT'S NOT THE NON-CONFORMING USE.
WHAT YOU NEED TO DO IS GET A LETTER FROM THE, FROM THE CURRENT LANDOWNER SAYING EXACTLY WHAT THEY DO THERE.
AND THAT BECOMES A NON-CONFORMING USE.
IF HE WERE TO CALL ME UP AND SAY, LOOK, I'M SELLING IT.
I'M GETTING A LOT OF PEOPLE THAT WANNA PUT A LANDSCAPING BUSINESS HERE, THEY WANNA PARK THEIR TRUCKS AND PUT A MULCH PILE BACK, I'D BE LIKE, THEY CAN'T.
WHAT YOU CAN DO IS YOU CAN SELL THE PEOPLE THAT ARE GONNA DO YOUR EXACT BUSINESS, AND IF YOU WANTED, DEFINE WHAT THAT BUSINESS IS, YOU NEED TO PROVIDE ME A CERTIFIED AND NOTARIZED LETTER SAYING, HERE'S WHAT MY BUSINESS IS.
DEFINE IT HOWEVER YOU WANT TO, I'M NOT GONNA QUIBBLE IT.
OBVIOUSLY, IF YOU SAY IT'S A LANDSCAPE BUSINESS, I'M GONNA SAY IT'S NOT A LANDSCAPE BUSINESS.
BUT YOU KNOW, IF YOU SAY IT'S A JUNKYARD, WE DO AUTO REPAIR, WE DO AUTO SALVAGE THERE, AND WE'VE BEEN DOING IT SINCE I'VE OWNED THE PROPERTY IN 1984, LET'S JUST SAY THAT'S WHAT THE LETTER SAID.
THAT LETTER WOULD GO INTO HIS FILE.
AND THEN WHEN SOMEONE COMES TO ME AND SAYS, WELL, I WANT TO CONTINUE THIS NON-CONFORMITY, BUT REALLY MY NON-CONFORMITY NOW IS, UM, QUASI INDUSTRIAL IS DIFFERENT.
I CAN SAY IT'S A DIFFERENT NONCONFORMITY.
YOU NEED TO GET PERMISSION TO DO THAT.
SO THERE ARE SOME LIMITATIONS.
I ASSUME HE DOES A LOT OF TELLING 4 22.
SO HE'S CLOSE TO THAT COLLEGEVILLE FOUR 20.
SO THAT'S, THAT'S WHAT, THAT'S WHY HE LIKES THAT SPOT, I PRESUME.
I, I, I DON'T KNOW, BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, I GO BY THERE A LOT TOO.
[00:55:01]
THAT OTHER PROPERTY THAT HE'S REDUCED THE NUMBER OF VEHICLES HE HAD IN THAT PROPERTY, THIS PROPERTY THAT, THAT'S DRASTICALLY BEEN REDUCED.AND BUT FROM MY STANDPOINT, IT'S NOT AN ABANDONMENT OF THE USE.
NO, I'M NOT SAYING HE'S ABANDON IT.
BUT HE'S CERTAINLY NOT USING IT TO THE LEVEL THAT HE DID BEFORE.
YOU KNOW, HE'S NOT PARKING THESE BIG TRUCKS THERE, YOU KNOW, HE'S NOT, YOU KNOW, HE IS GOT A FEW TRUCKS, BUT IT'S DEFINITELY CHANGING.
HE MAY, HE PROBABLY KNOWS THE RULES.
WE'VE HAD SOME LEGAL BATTLES WITH HIM OVER SOME THINGS, SO.
I'M GONNA SHUT UP NOW AND I'M GONNA HAND THIS OVER TO BROWN.
WELL, BACK IN MAY, UH, WE TOOK A, A HIGH HELICOPTER LOOK AT THE FIVE HIGH CRASH CORRIDORS THAT WERE IDENTIFIED IN THE COMP PLAN, AND THAT'S THE FIRST SHEET THAT YOU GOT IN FRONT OF YOU.
SO THE FIRST SHEET IS NOTHING NEW.
THAT'S WHAT YOU SAW BACK IN MAY.
UM, BASED ON THAT DISCUSSION, WE'VE GONE AHEAD AND NOW LOOKED AT EACH ONE OF THESE CORRIDORS IN A WHOLE LOT MORE DETAIL TO TRY AND IDENTIFY PATTERNS OR, UH, AREAS THAT ARE OF CONCERN THAT COULD BE MITIGATED.
SO WHILE WE'VE GOT A LOT OF CRASHES, TOWN OF WHY THERE A LOT OF THOSE CRASHES HAPPEN FOR REASONS THAT THERE'S REALLY NOTHING THAT WE CAN CONTROL.
OKAY? IF WE GET A, UH, A DRIVER THAT IS MAKING A BAD CHOICE AND TURNING WHERE THEY SHOULDN'T OR DRIVING UNDER THE INFLUENCE OR, YOU KNOW, THOSE TYPES OF THINGS.
THERE'S JUST NOTHING THAT WE, YOU KNOW, WE, WE CAN'T PUT BUBBLE WRAP ON EVERYBODY'S CAR OR, OR EVERYTHING THAT'S OUT THERE TO TRY AND, AND PREVENT THOSE FROM, FROM HAPPENING.
BUT THERE ARE CERTAINLY THINGS THAT HAPPEN OUT ON OUR ROADWAY NETWORK THAT WE CAN LOOK AT AND WE CAN MAKE SOME SUGGESTIONS OF THINGS THAT WE CAN DO BETTER.
UH, AND SO THAT'S WHAT WE'VE KIND OF CONCENTRATED ON OVER THE LAST COUPLE OF MONTHS IS PUTTING TOGETHER THIS MORE DETAILED LOOK TO SEE WHERE DO WE HAVE PLACES THAT WE COULD ACTUALLY, UH, DO SOME, SOME ENGINEERING TYPE ACTIVITIES THAT WOULD DECREASE THE LIKELIHOOD OF CRASHES WHERE WE'RE SEEING THEM CURRENTLY.
AND SO AS WE WALK THROUGH, UM, THIS, THIS SET OF, OF EXHIBITS THAT I'VE, I'VE PROVIDED TO YOU, UH, SO BASICALLY YOU'VE GOT TWO DOCUMENTS IN FRONT OF YOU.
UH, THE 11 BY SEVENTEENS ARE GONNA SHOW YOU ALL PAGES.
I'M SORRY, YOU'RE GOING PAGES.
UM, E THE 11 BY SEVENTEENS BASICALLY ARE SHOWING YOU THE, THE CORRIDORS.
UM, AND WE'LL WALK THROUGH THOSE.
THE EIGHT AND A HALF BY 11 DOCUMENT IS A COMPANION DOCUMENT.
EACH CORRIDOR IS ON A, ON A SHEET.
AND SO WE'LL KIND OF GO COLLECTIVELY TOGETHER.
UM, SO WHEN WE LOOKED AT EGYPT ROAD, WE TALKED ABOUT 106 CRASHES AT MILL AND THEN AT THE 4 22 EASTBOUND RAMPS.
SHEET ONE OF THREE ON EGYPT AT LONGFORD AND AT GREENTREE, THERE'S REALLY NOT A CONCENTRATION OF CRASHES ANYWHERE THAT EITHER OF THOSE INTERSECTIONS THAT, THAT WOULD, WOULD WARRANT LOOKING AT, IF I'M NOT MISTAKEN, ISN'T THERE SOME SOMETHING IN THE MILL TO DO A STOP, UH, A LIGHT ON AT GREENTREE IN EGYPT? I THOUGHT PENDOT WAS GONNA DO SOMETHING AT GREENTREE.
I DON'T KNOW THAT WOULD BE USED TO ME.
AND I, I DON'T KNOW WHY I THOUGHT THAT.
I MEAN, I DON'T KNOW THAT IT, IT'S NECESSARY.
I JUST FOR SOME REASON DID THAT IN THE BACK OF MY MIND THAT THAT WAS, AND THEN THESE ACCIDENTS THAT HAPPENED ON LONGFORD OR OR GREEN TREE, THOSE ARE BECAUSE PEOPLE HAVE PULLED OUT IN FRONT OF PEOPLE, STUFF LIKE THAT.
SO, UM, LET ME JUST GIVE A A LITTLE OVERVIEW OF WHAT ALL OF THESE SHOW.
SO YOU'LL NOTICE DOWN IN OUR LEGEND, WE USE DIFFERENT ARROW SYMBOLS TO REPRESENT DIFFERENT TYPES OF CRASHES.
SO IF THE TWO ARROWHEAD COME TOGETHER, THAT'S A, A HEAD ON.
IF, IF THEY'RE, YOU KNOW, GENERALLY, UH, POINTING AT ONE ANOTHER, IF THEY'RE COMING IN AT AN ANGLE LIKE THAT, WE CALL THAT AN ANGLE CRASH.
UM, YOU COULD HAVE A REAR END CRASH, YOU COULD HAVE SOME, UH, THE LITTLE BOX, SO THEY HIT SOMETHING.
COULD HAVE BEEN A UTILITY POLE, COULD HAVE BEEN A GUIDE RAIL, SOMETHING LIKE THAT.
AND THEN, UM, IT'S A POOR ATTEMPT AT A LITTLE STICK FIGURE THERE FOR A PEDESTRIAN CRASH.
SO THOSE ARE THE TYPES OF CRASHES.
UM, THEN THE COLOR, UM, DE DENOTES
[01:00:01]
WHAT CAUSED THE CRASH.SO IF IT'S IN RED, IT'S BECAUSE SOMEBODY EITHER RAN A RED LIGHT AT A SIGNALED INTERSECTION OR THEY CARELESSLY PULLED OUT FROM A STOP SIGN IF, IF IT'S STOPPED CONTROLLED.
UM, IF IT'S IN BLUE, THEY MADE A A POOR CHOICE OF, OF MAKING A TURN.
UH, WE SEE A LOT OF THOSE AND THEN BLACK OR OTHER CRASHES AND, AND WE CAN GET INTO THE DETAILS OF THAT IF WE NEEDED TO.
AND THEN THE SHAPE OF THE SYMBOL TELLS US HOW SEVERE IT WAS.
SO ANYTHING THAT IS A CIRCLE IDENTIFIES THERE WAS AN INJURY.
UH, IF IT'S A SQUARE, IT WAS PROPERTY DAMAGE ONLY.
SO YOU KNOW, THEIR, THEIR CAR MAY HAVE BEEN DAMAGED BUT NOBODY WAS HURT.
UM, OR A SIGN GOT KNOCKED DOWN OR, YOU KNOW, SOMETHING PHYSICAL, BUT NOBODY, UH, NEEDED A TRIP TO THE SERVICES BY THE EMERGENCY DEPARTMENT.
UM, TRIANGLES ARE, ARE KIND OF THE, UH, THE, THE CATCHALL.
UM, POLICE REPORTS AREN'T ALWAYS COMPLETE OR, UH, THINGS HAPPEN BEFORE THE POLICE GET THERE.
AND SO YOU DON'T KNOW EXACTLY WHAT MIGHT HAVE HAPPENED.
SO THOSE ARE THE UNKNOWN SEVERITY.
AND THEN OUR OCTAGONS, THOSE ARE THE, THOSE ARE THE, THE HEADLINE GETTERS.
UH, THOSE ARE THE, OUR FATALITIES.
THOSE ARE THE ONES WE, YOU KNOW, KIND OF TAKE A LITTLE BIT MORE OF A LOOK AT AND GO, OKAY, IS THIS SOMETHING THAT WE COULD, COULD HAVE PREVENTED? UM, UP IN THE, UP IN THE TOP THERE'S A LISTING, JUST SO YOU HAVE THAT OF WHEN, WHAT MONTH AND YEAR THE CRASH OCCURRED, UH, WHAT TIME IT OCCURRED.
SOMETIMES THAT COMES INTO PLAY AS TO WHETHER IT WAS AT NIGHT OR DURING THE DAY.
UM, AND THEN WHAT WERE THE PAVEMENT CONDITIONS.
UH, SOMETIMES THAT CAN GIVE US A HINT.
UH, SO ON THIS FIRST SHEET HERE, YOU KNOW, CRASH EIGHT HAPPENED IN JANUARY AND IT WAS SLUSHY.
SO, YOU KNOW, DID THAT PAY PLAY A ROLE IN, IN THAT CRASH AS OPPOSED TO IF IT HAD BEEN, YOU KNOW, SUNNY SUMMER DAY, MAYBE WE WOULDN'T HAVE HAD THAT CRASH.
AND IF THAT'S THE CASE, YOU KNOW, WE CAN'T DEAL WITH THE WEATHER, THEN WE JUST MOVE ON.
BUT HOW, HOW DO YOU, I DON'T SEE ANYTHING ON HERE.
YOU'RE THE EXPERT, OBVIOUSLY, BUT I DON'T SEE ANYTHING ON HERE.
FIRST OF ALL, 10 CRASHES IN FIVE YEARS IS, IS NOT, NOT A BIG DEAL.
BUT EVEN IF, EVEN IF WE DECIDE IT WAS A BIG DEAL, THE 10 CRASHES THAT YOU'VE HIGHLIGHTED HERE ON, ON THIS STRETCH OF EACH APPROACH, I DON'T, THEY ALL LOOK LIKE THEY'RE DRIVER PROBLEMS, NOT ROAD PROBLEMS FOR, FOR THE MOST PART.
THE DRIVER OF SOMEBODY MADE AIR OR THEY'RE INTOXICATED OR YEAH.
ALL, ALL KINDS OF DIFFERENT THINGS.
OR, OR A SIGNAL ISSUE OR A STOP SIGN ISSUE.
DOESN'T LOOK LIKE IT MIGHT BE, 'CAUSE SOMEBODY READ A GRAY OR RED LIGHT ABOUT THE RED LIGHT.
ALL I'M SAYING IS IT WASN'T THAT AND THEY RAN IT, IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN A RED LIGHT.
I MEAN THERE'S NOTHING HERE THAT SAYS, GOLLY, YOU, WE, WE GOT A PROBLEM HERE.
YOU LOOK, AND EVEN THE FATALITY, IT'S IN THE MIDDLE OF THE STRETCH OF ROAD AND THEY HIT A FIXED OBJECT.
AND THAT COULD BE, WE DON'T KNOW.
IT COULD BE A DUI OR COULD, COULD, COULD HAVE BEEN.
AND, AND THAT'S, THAT'S THE REASON WE GO THROUGH THIS EXERCISE IS ARE THERE PATTERNS AND ARE THERE ELEMENTS THAT WE CAN CONTROL? AND, AND I AGREE WITH YOU ON SHEET ONE OF THREE FOR EGYPT ROAD.
THERE'S NOTHING HERE TO LOOK AT.
UH, AND, AND I DON'T WANT TO SPEND, YOU KNOW, I DON'T WANT TO TAKE UP THE NEXT THREE HOURS FOR YOU.
UM, SO WE'LL FAST FORWARD TO A COUPLE OF THINGS THAT, THAT THERE IS SOME THINGS TO LOOK AT.
UM, SO SHEET 2 0 3, CONTINUING DOWN EGYPT ROAD, UM, YOU KNOW, NOTHING REALLY AT STATION AVENUE, WE GET TO MILL.
WE HAVE 18 CRASHES AT ONE INTERSECTION.
UM, HELP ME WHICH ONE'S MILL, RIGHT AT RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE.
RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE IT SAYS MILL ROAD.
YEAH, I KNOW
THAT, THAT SAYS YOU GO UP ON THE RIGHT HAND SIDE, EVENTUALLY THE LEFT HAND SIDE IS TARGET.
IT'S AT THE INTERSECTION, BUT I CAN GET AN IDEA WHERE MILL IS.
I DON'T, IT'S AT THE STARBUCKS INTERSECTION.
SO NOW WE'RE STARTING TO SEE, YOU KNOW, GOOD ONE, WE'RE STARTING TO SEE, YOU KNOW, MORE CRASHES.
WE'VE GOT 18 IN, IN A A FIVE YEAR PERIOD.
THERE ARE A COUPLE OF COMBINATIONS WHERE IT'S NOT JUST ONE-OFFS.
UM, BUT STILL, IT, IT IS, IT IS ONLY A COUPLE.
UM, WE DO SEE SOME RED LIGHT RUNNING NOW WE'VE GOT, YOU KNOW, A HANDFUL OF RED LIGHT RUNNING CRASHES.
BUT WHEN WE LOOK AT THE, THE INTERSECTION,
[01:05:01]
OUR, OUR TIMINGS FOR HOW LONG SHOULD THE RED LIGHT BE AND ALL THAT, THEY LOOK TO BE IN THE RIGHT SHAPE.UM, DO, DO YOU, DOES THE TOWNSHIP HAVE CONTROL OF THAT? YES.
SO THE TOWNSHIP CAN TELL TO STAY IN YOUR, YOUR THE LEFT TURN LIGHT IS TOO LONG, TOO SHORT, WHATEVER.
SO WE, WE CAN TELL 'EM THIS IS WHAT WE THINK.
WE HAVE TO PROVIDE THEM THE SUPPORTING DOCUMENTATION, AND AS LONG AS THEY AGREE, THEN WE CAN MAKE A CHANGE.
SO ALL OF ALL OF THE TRAFFIC SIGNALS WITHIN THE TOWNSHIP ARE ACTUALLY OWNED AND OPERATED AND MAINTAINED BY THE TOWNSHIP.
I'M NOT THE ONE THAT'S BURNED OUT WHEN YOU MAKE THE LEFT HAND TURN AND GET ON FROM 22.
BUT WE DON'T CONTROL THE TIMINGS OR THOSE TYPES OF THINGS.
UH, WELL WE, WE, WE DO HAVE CONTROL, UH, IN THAT IF, IF THERE IS SOMETHING THAT IS A PROBLEM OR SOMETHING THAT ISN'T OPERATING THE WAY WE WOULD LIKE IT TO, WE CAN DOCUMENT IT AND GO TO PENDOT TO MAKE A CHANGE.
WE CAN'T JUST, WE CAN'T DO IT ON OUR OWN.
NOW WE, WE DO HAVE TO GET THEIR CONTROLLED, IF YOU WILL, AT THE END.
IF WE'RE, IF WE'RE MAINTAINING LIGHT, WE'RE CHANGING THE BOLTS OR WHATEVER THEY HAVE TO DO TO MAINTAIN 'EM, HOW WOULD THE STATE KNOW WE CHANGE THE THING THAT INSTEAD OF BEING 40 SECONDS OUT, 60 SECONDS.
SO HOW WOULD THEY KNOW, UM, HEATHER LIMIT
AS SOON AS YOU GOT, AS SOON AS WE GOT TO THE TECHNICAL, YOU'RE LIKE, I, THIS IS GONNA GET TO MONTCLAIR HERE PRETTY SOON.
SO THAT'S WHAT I WAS WAITING FOR TO THINK PRODUCE JUNCTION.
I ACTUALLY THINK THIS IS PRETTY INTERESTING.
WE DON'T HAVE A HIGH CRASH CORRIDOR DOWN IN THE MONTCLAIR AREA.
BUT WE, UM, SO AS FAR AS THE THE SIGNAL OPERATIONS YEAH.
HOW WOULD THEY KNOW? UH, THE, THE ANSWER REALLY IS ONLY WHEN THERE'S A PROBLEM.
AND SO PART OF IT IS THAT THE SIGNALS ARE TO BE OPERATED IN THE WAY PENTAGON HAS APPROVED IT.
IF THERE IS A CRASH AND THE TOWNSHIP GETS BROUGHT INTO LITIGATION BECAUSE WE'RE THE OWNER AND OPERATOR, AND THEY, SOMEBODY, SOME SMART ATTORNEY SAYS, HEY, IT'S NOT BEING OPERATED AS THE WAY IT SHOULD BE AND THE TOWNSHIP CAN GET PULLED INTO A, A LIABILITY LAWSUIT.
SO, WELL, I I, THAT MAKES SENSE OF SURE.
BUT I'M JUST SAYING IF YOU HAVE A LEFT TURN THAT MAYBE IS 10 SECONDS TOO LONG OR 10 SECONDS TOO SHORT, I MEAN OKAY, I GET YOU.
SO, SO, YOU KNOW, BUT AGAIN, WE CAN GO AND, AND MAKE RECOMMENDATIONS AND, AND GET CHANGES MADE.
HOW, HOW IS THAT, HOW IS THAT PERCEIVED BY PEN? SO WHEN THE TOWNSHIP COMES IN AND MAKES THAT PITCH? UM, THEY ARE VERY RECEPTIVE TO THAT.
UM, OBVIOUSLY THEY'RE LOOKING AND MAKING SURE THAT WE'RE, YOU KNOW, WE'RE FOLLOWING ALL OF THEIR RULES AND, AND GUIDELINES, BUT, UM, YOU GET A LOT MORE FLEXIBILITY FROM A TOWNSHIP MAKING THAT PITCH THAN IF A DEVELOPER COMES IN AND SAYS THEY WANT TO DO SOMETHING WHO KNOWS THE AREA BETTER.
REALLY, WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT IT.
AND HOW DO YOU GET THAT INFORMATION? WHO GIVES THAT INFORMATION TO JEFF? UH, SO ACTUALLY WE, WE DO TALK ABOUT IT, UH, AT NO, I MEAN, I MEAN, NOT YOU, NOT YOU AND JEFF.
I MEAN, HOW DOES, IF A FIVE, I TRAVEL THAT INTERSECTION EVERY DAY AND I DON'T LIKE THAT TURNING LANE.
IT'S NOT LETTING MY CAR GET, WHO DO I TELL THAT TO? FROM ATTENTION'S PERSPECTIVE, WE HAVE ON OUR WEBSITE A REPORTED CONCERN WHERE IF, IF YOU AS A RESIDENT SEE SOMETHING THAT YOU DON'T LIKE OR HAVE A QUESTION ABOUT, YOU CAN GO IN THERE AND YOU CAN PUT IN TOM WRIGHT.
I LIVE AT THIS AND YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE A RESIDENT TO USE IT, BUT I WAS AT THE INTERSECTION OF MILL AND EGYPT ROAD, NOTICED THAT THE LIGHT WAS WAY TOO LONG, PLEASE ADDRESS OR PLEASE LOOK AT, AND THAT WILL GET SENT IN AND IT WILL GET FILTERED OUT TO THE RIGHT DEPARTMENT.
WHETHER THAT'S BRIAN OR PUBLIC WORKS OR ME.
THAT'S HOW A RESIDENT WILL GO IN AND, AND LOOK AT THAT.
AND HOW, HOW, HOW MUCH OF THAT DOES THAT HACKED? HOW DOES THAT HAPPEN OFTEN? IS IT OH YEAH.
CONCERN IS, IS IS A WELL USED BUTTON.
UNFORTUNATELY, AT TIMES, UM, PEOPLE HAVE A BUNCH OF COMPLAINTS.
WELL, LOOK, WE, WE SEND PEOPLE THERE FOR ANYTHING.
IF YOU HAVE AN ISSUE WITH YOUR NEIGHBOR'S GRASS, IF YOU HAVE A POTHOLE OF MY STREET, A POTHOLE, MY STREET, IT MIGHT BE SOMETHING THAT WE CAN'T DO BECAUSE IT'S A PEN
[01:10:01]
KNOT ROAD, BUT AT LEAST WE GET IT TO THE RIGHT PEOPLE AND WE'RE AWARE OF IT.SO, UM, MILL ROAD, THE 4 22 EASTBOUND RANSOM AND, AND BLACKROCK ROAD.
AGAIN, THERE ARE SOME, YOU KNOW, WE'RE GETTING SOME CRASHES, BUT WHEN WE LOOK AT IT, THE CRASHES AREN'T OVERWHELMING OF A PARTICULAR TYPE AND WHERE THEY ARE.
UH, SO FOR EXAMPLE, AT BLACKROCK WE SEE A LOT OF THE EASTBOUND LEFT WITH THE WESTBOUND THROUGH THAT NUMBER 23, 24, 28, 29 30.
AND SO WE SEE FIVE CRASHES THERE ALL TOGETHER.
BUT WHAT WE HAVE IN PLACE IS, UH, OUR TERM IS PROTECTED, PROHIBITED.
SO THE LEFT TURNS SHOULD NOT BE CONFLICTING WITH THE THROUGH MOVEMENTS BASED ON THE WAY THE SIGNAL IS DESIGNED.
SO ALL OF THOSE ARE PEOPLE MAKING POOR CHOICES ON MAKING AN TURN.
SO WHAT YOU'RE SAYING IS THAT LIGHT WOULD SAY THE LEFT TURN, HAVE AN ARROW, LET YOU MAKE A LEFT TURN, AND THEN AFTER A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF TIME IT TURNS RED AND YOU CAN'T MAKE THAT LEFT TURN AGAIN.
AND THAT'S WHEN WE END UP WITH CRASHES.
SO AGAIN, THERE'S NOT AN ENGINEERING SOLUTION THAT IT IS ALREADY IN PLACE TO NOT HAVE THAT CONFLICT AND WE'RE NOT GETTING THAT.
ALL RIGHT, SO IF WE GO TO SHEET THREE, UH, YOU'RE GONNA SEE PROBABLY ONE OF THE MOST EGREGIOUS EXAMPLES THAT I'VE GOT FOR YOU TONIGHT.
AND IF YOU LOOK AT THE WESTBOUND RAMP INTERSECTION THERE FOR 4 22, YOU SEE 21 CRASHES IN A FIVE YEAR PERIOD THAT ARE THE EASTBOUND LEFT AND THE WESTBOUND THROUGH, UM, IT'S A LOT OF CARELESS TURNS.
IT'S A A COUPLE OF RED LIGHT RUNNING ISSUES.
UM, WE'VE GOT INJURIES, WE'VE GOT PROPERTY DAMAGE, WE'VE GOT, YOU KNOW, THAT'S A SIGNIFICANT ITEM.
AND SO, UM, YOU'VE SEEN, UH, THE, THE FLASHING YELLOW ARROW TYPE OF A TRAFFIC SIGNAL.
WHICH TELLS PEOPLE TO GO, WELL, WE CAUTION, OBVIOUSLY WE'D CAUTION, BUT IT COULD GO CORRECT.
UM, WHICH IS A LOT BETTER THAN WHAT'S CURRENTLY OUT HERE IS THE OLD DOGHOUSE STYLE WHERE YOU HAVE A RED AT THE TOP, YOU'VE GOT THE YELLOW AND GREEN CIRCLES AND THE YELLOW AND GREEN ARROWS.
AND WHAT HAPPENS IS WE USED TO USE THOSE TO ESSENTIALLY SAY THE SAME THING.
GREEN ARROW, YOU'RE PROTECTED, YOU CAN MAKE YOUR TURN, OH, THAT'S GOING AWAY WITH THE YELLOW ARROW.
AND THEN WE SHOW YOU A GREEN BALL.
AND THE DRIVERS OFTEN MISINTERPRET THAT AS, OH, IT'S GREEN, I DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT ANYTHING AND I CAN GO.
AND SO THAT YELLOW ARROW, IT STILL ALLOWS THE EXACT SAME OPERATION, BUT IT'S A DIFFERENT MESSAGE.
AND THIS IS A LOCATION WHERE SWITCHING THAT OUT YOU ARE, OR HAVE WE HAS NOT BEEN DONE RECOMMENDATION, BUT THAT'S A RECOMMENDATION THAT WE WOULD SWAP THOSE OUT TO DO.
IT REALLY DOESN'T CHANGE OVER OVERALL THE OPERATION, BUT IT'S A DIFFERENT MESSAGE TO THE DRIVER TO HOPEFULLY MAKE AN IMPACT AT, AT, AT ONE OF THE WORST CUSTOMERS.
DO YOU HAVE ANY, DO YOU HAVE ANY DATA OR, UH, EXPERIENCE, NOT DATA EXPERIENCE WITH THAT AS, 'CAUSE I'M NOT, I SEE THAT A LOT OF INTERSECTIONS NOW A LOT MORE THAN YOU USED TO.
THAT YELLOW, THAT YELLOW, UH, BLINKING.
UM, IS THAT WORKING SO FAR? THE STATISTICS, I I DON'T HAVE THOSE IN FRONT OF ME.
YOUR PROFESSION THINKS THAT'S WORKING.
THAT IS, THAT IS A, AN IMPROVEMENT FROM A SAFETY PERSPECTIVE OVER THE OLD STYLE.
AND SO THIS IS A, A MAJOR ONE, BUT THERE ARE A FEW OTHER LOCATIONS IN THE TOWNSHIP THAT WE'LL GET TO THAT IT'S THE SAME RECOMMENDATION.
THE, UH, SORRY, THE OTHER THING THAT IT DOES, UM, WE HAVE THE ABILITY TO UTILIZE THAT SIGNAL OPERATION DIFFERENTLY AT DIFFERENT TIMES OF THE DAY.
SO WE JUST TALKED ABOUT IT AND PREVIOUSLY THE PROTECTED PROHIBITED WHERE YOU COULD ONLY TURN WHEN YOU GOT THE GREEN ARROW.
AND IT DOESN'T GIVE YOU THAT OPTION TO TURN WHEN TRAFFIC IS COMING IN FRONT OF YOU WITH THE, THE FLASHING YELLOW ARROW SYSTEM.
WE COULD OPERATE THAT IN BOTH WAYS.
SO AT PEAK TIMES WHEN THERE'S A LOT OF TRAFFIC, WE COULD SAY
[01:15:01]
ONLY TURN WHEN WE GIVE YOU THE ARROW.'CAUSE WE, THE GREEN ARROW, GREEN ARROW, WHEN IT'S SAFE AND YOU'RE PROTECTED GO AT TWO IN THE MORNING WHEN THERE ISN'T ANYBODY ELSE COMING UP.
WE DON'T WANT YOU TO HAVE TO SIT AND WAIT THERE FOR NOBODY.
WE CAN GIVE YOU THE FLASHING YELLOW, YELLOW ARROW.
SO THAT IS SOMETHING THAT THAT OPERATIONAL SIGNAL OPERATION GIVES US FLEXIBILITY TO DO THAT WE DON'T HAVE WITH WHAT'S OUT THERE TODAY.
CAN YOU, CAN YOU GO, CAN YOU, CAN YOU MAKE THESE RECOMMENDATIONS WITHOUT APPROVAL? I MEAN, CAN YOU JUST, I MEAN, ARE WHAT YOU, THIS IS GREAT INFORMATION.
ARE WE, DO WE NEED TO DO SOMETHING TO MAKE IT HAPPEN? SO, UM, WHAT, WHAT REALLY NEEDS TO HAPPEN FOR, TO MAKE IT MAKE THAT PITCH TO DEPEND ON IS WE GOTTA SPEND SOME MONEY NOW I HAVE TO PUT A REPORT TOGETHER, I'M GONNA MAKE THE APPLICATION TO DEPEND ON.
AND SO AT SOME POINT SOMEBODY HAS TO PAY US TO DO THAT FROM THE TOWNSHIP.
FROM A LOGISTICS STANDPOINT, I DON'T NEED ANYTHING, UM, YOU KNOW, AUTHORIZATION WISE FROM THE PLANNING COMMISSION OR THE BOARD.
WE, THAT HAS TO COME FROM THE SUPERVISOR.
BUT I, I I THINK THE, IF I'M NOT MISTAKEN, JEFF, THE WHOLE IDEA WAS, YOU KNOW, WE, YOU GUYS ARE WORKING ON THIS RECOMMENDATION PACKAGE.
AND THEN SUGGESTING TO THE BOARD COLLECTIVELY, HEY, THIS IS PART OF THE COMP PLAN, THIS IS SOMETHING WE WANT TO MOVE FORWARD.
BRIAN, YOU KNOW, GILMORE NEEDS X AMOUNT OF DOLLARS IN ORDER TO MOVE THIS FORWARD TO PENDO TO TRY AND MITIGATE THESE ITEMS. SO THAT, THAT'S WHERE, THAT'S WHERE I WAS GOING.
I WAS GONNA ASK A QUESTION ABOUT THAT, BUT THAT, THAT'S REALLY OUT OF MY, MY ZONE, SO I'M NOT GONNA GO.
BUT QUESTION BEFORE THAT, WHAT, WHAT, UM, WHEN, WHEN YOU GUYS MAKE A CHANGE LIKE THAT, WHOEVER COME UP WITH A PEN ON, OR CONSULTANTS LIKE YOU WENT TO PEN ON SAY, HEY, WE GOT THIS NEW SYSTEM, IT'S GONNA BE A YELLOW FLASHING LIGHT, WHICH HOW DOES THEY GET EDUCATED? UM, QUESTION.
UH, SO PENDOT PUT TOGETHER, UH, SOME PUBLICITY INFORMATION TO IDENTIFY WHAT IT IS, HOW DOES IT WORK.
UM, OBVIOUSLY IT, IT IS BEEN INCORPORATED INTO THE DRIVER'S MANUAL.
SO OUR NEWER DRIVERS ARE SEEING THAT.
BUT THOSE OF US THAT HAVE HAD OUR LICENSE FOR A NUMBER OF YEARS, YEAH.
IT'S LIKE, WHAT IS THAT? WHAT IS THAT? WHAT AM I SUPPOSED TO DO WITH THAT? UM, AND SO PENDO DID PUT SOME, SOME, UH, INFORMATIONAL MATERIAL UP TOGETHER.
UM, CERTAINLY IF IT'S SOMETHING, I MEAN THE TOWNSHIP HAS THEM, THERE ARE A COUPLE ALREADY IN THE TOWNSHIP.
UM, BUT IF WE'RE GOING TO MAKE A RECOMMENDATION AND, AND MOVE FORWARD WITH CHANGING OUT TO, I THINK I'VE GOT FOUR OR FIVE DIFFERENT INTERSECTIONS WHERE THAT'S A RECOMMENDATION.
YOU KNOW, THAT MIGHT BE SOMETHING THAT WE, YOU KNOW, PUT TO TAKE PENNDOT'S INFORMATION, CUSTOMIZE IT FOR WHERE ARE WE PUTTING THESE NEW ONES IN AND, AND, YOU KNOW, MAKE, MAKE THAT AVAILABLE.
ONE OF THE THINGS THAT COMES TO MIND IS SINCE THESE ARE SORT OF, UH, TOWNSHIP INSTIGATED CHANGES, IT WOULD BE, UH, PUBLISHED NUMBER ONE ON THE WEBSITE, BUT TWO IN THE, IN THE NEWSLETTER GOES OUT.
BUT UNFORTUNATELY, RIDGE PIKE OR OR TOWNSHIP LINE ROAD, THERE'S A LOT OF PEOPLE THAT DON'T LIVE IN THIS TOWNSHIP.
YOU'RE, YOU'RE THAT'S A GREAT POINT.
AND, AND I'M JUST SAYING I THINK, YOU KNOW, AND I DON'T KNOW WHAT THAT METHOD IS, BUT IT SOUNDS LIKE SOMETHING WHEN YOU MAKE, I THINK THAT'S A PRETTY MAJOR CHANGE.
I'M NOT SAYING IT'S A BAD, I THINK IT'S A VERY GOOD CHANGE, BUT IT'S STILL A MAJOR CHANGE.
I THINK IT'S PENOC RESPONSIBILITY SOMEHOW TO GET THAT MESSAGE OUT THERE TO ALL LICENSED DRIVERS THAT HEY, YOU'RE GONNA SEE THIS NEW SIGNAL NO MATTER WHERE IT'S AT.
YOU'RE POINT ARE TRAVERSING THROUGH THE TOWNSHIP, YOU'RE COMING FROM WHEREVER, WHEREVER.
IT HAS TO GET A BROADER MESSAGE I'M SEEING IN OTHER PLACES OTHER THAN OUR TOWNSHIP TOO.
SO YOU REALLY WONDER, WHAT AM I SUPPOSED TO DO HERE? YEAH, YEAH.
UM, SO THAT, THAT'S, UH, 4 22 WESTBOUND AT, AT CIDER MILL AND NEW MILL.
UM, AGAIN, IT, YOU DON'T SEE THE CONCENTRATION OF CRASHES HERE, BUT IT HAS A VERY SIMILAR OPERATION.
AND SO BECAUSE WE'RE AT ADJACENT INTERSECTIONS, MAKING IT A UNIFORM THING, UM, IS CERTAINLY SOMETHING TO LOOK AT.
UM, AND THEN THE OTHER THING WE NOTICED HERE, UM, I IS, THERE'S SOME, SOME WEAVING HAPPENING.
UH, YOU SEE CRASH NUMBER 34 THERE WHERE YOU'VE GOT, YOU KNOW, KIND OF SIDESWIPE WHERE YOU HAVE A VEHICLE COMING INTO
[01:20:01]
THE SIDE OF ANOTHER VEHICLE.UM, WHEN WE LOOKED AT THAT, IT'S TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHERE AM I SUPPOSED TO BE SURE.
AND, AND GETTING THE CORRECT LANE PLACEMENT.
SO, SO ADDING SOME ADDITIONAL SIGNING OVER, UM, YOU KNOW, OVER IN LOWER PROVIDENCE TO COMMUNICATE THAT AS YOU APPROACH THAT SIGNAL.
UM, IS, IS SOMETHING WE'D WANT TO LOOK AT.
UM, THIS IS, THIS IS REALLY NICE WORK'S.
THANK YOU SO, SO MUCH FOR DOING THIS.
AND IT'S, IT'S REALLY EYEOPENING FOR SURE.
WHAT KIND OF TIMEFRAME DO YOU WANNA PUT ON THIS? I, I PROBABLY, I CAN, I CAN GET THROUGH THINGS PROBABLY IN ANOTHER 15 MINUTES.
DOES THAT WORK FOR YOU GUYS? YEAH, I, I WOULD LIKE TO, I WOULD SAY QUARTER TO NINE.
WE CAN DO IT SOONER THAN QUARTER TO NINE.
IS THAT ALL RIGHT WITH YOU JIM? UH, I'M HERE.
I DON'T THINK ANYBODY WANTS TO STAY MUCH LATER.
I THINK WE GET THE GIST OF IT.
AND I WANT CONTINUE TO TALK ABOUT IT, BUT MAYBE WE NEED TO SHIFT IT TO OUR NEXT MEETING TOO.
PUT IT FIRST ON THE AGENDA AND, UH, 'CAUSE IT, IT'S CERTAINLY, IT'S VERY EYEOPENING, ISN'T IT? BUT IT VERY, IT'S VERY INTERESTING.
YOU'VE TAKEN A LOT OF COMPLEX INFORMATION AND MADE IT VERY CLEAR IN YOUR SIMPLE AND YOU'RE, YOU KNOW, WE REALLY APPRECIATE THAT.
WELL, I CERTAINLY APPRECIATE THAT WE, UH, YEAH, WE WORKED HARD TO TRY AND COME UP WITH A SYSTEM.
THAT WOULD BE, YOU KNOW, YOU'RE RIGHT.
THERE'S A LOT OF DATA FOR EACH ONE OF THESE CRASHES.
AND THEN TRY AND BREAK IT DOWN SO THAT IT'S, IT'S GENERAL, YOU KNOW, GENERALIZED SPECIFIC.
THE REASON I ASK ABOUT THE TIME IS BECAUSE I THINK WE COULD PROBABLY SPEND 10 MINUTES ON EACH ONE OF THESE PAGES.
WE'RE ASKING QUESTIONS, YOU KNOW.
UM, SO THE NEXT QUARTER THAT WE LOOKED AT WAS THE ROUTE 29 CORRIDOR STARTING AT 4 22 AND HEADING NORTH.
UM, SO AT THE WESTBOUND RAMPS AND AT TOWN CENTER DRIVE, UM, REALLY NO RECOMMENDATIONS ON, ON IMPROVEMENTS.
IF YOU FLIP TO SHEET TWO, UM, YOU GET TO OUR COLA ROAD, THAT'S NOT ONE THING.
ONE THING ABOUT THAT, AND I'M SORRY, I, I SAID I CAN ASK QUESTION EVERY ONE OF THESE ON THAT TOWN CENTER DRIVE, UM, BACK ON THAT PA THAT PAGE.
UM, THERE'S A LOT OF PEOPLE, NOT A LOT OF PEOPLE, BUT THERE'S A QUITE A FEW ACCIDENTS THERE THAT ARE HITTING STUFF.
WHO ARE THEY HITTING? WELL, YOU, UNFORTUNATELY, THE, THE, UNFORTUNATELY THE CRASH DATA THAT WE GET FROM PDOT, ALL WE GET IS THAT THEY HIT A FIXED OBJECT.
BUT, AND IT IS NOT EVEN LIKE ONE PLACE.
IT'S A NO IN DIFFERENT DIRECTIONS.
IT'S STILL ONE, IT COULD BE THE CURVE, RIGHT? IT COULD BE THE, IT COULD BE THE CURB, IT COULD BE A GUIDE RAIL.
BUT LIKE 13, I MEAN, WHAT DID HE HIT? 'CAUSE HE'S INJURED, THERE'S INJURIES.
SO HE HIT CURB INJURY, HE RAN A RED LIGHT, BUT HIT SOMETHING.
SO MY GUESS IS IF I HAD TO, YOU KNOW, GO OUT ON A LIMB, MY GUESS IS THEY RAN THE RED LIGHT.
SOMEBODY WAS PULLING OUT, THEY SWERVED TO AVOID SOMEBODY HITTING COMING OUT AND THEY WENT UP ON THE, THE CURB AND, AND HIT SOMETHING ON OFF THE SHOULDER.
I MEAN, HAVE THREE RIGHT BACK INTERSECTION AND WHAT ARE THEY, WHAT ARE THESE PEOPLE HITTING? YEAH.
UH, SO SHEET TWO OF TWO, WE GET TO OUR KOHL ROAD.
UM, WHAT WE'VE NOTICED IS IF YOU LOOK, ALL OF THE RED LIGHT RUNNING INVOLVES A NORTHBOUND THROUGH RED LIGHT RUNNER.
AND SO, UM, THERE ARE, THERE ARE DETECTORS IN THE ROAD RIGHT NOW THAT ARE TRYING TO PREVENT THAT FROM HAPPENING.
BUT THERE'S WHAT YOU MEAN BY DETECTOR.
SO THERE'S A, THERE'S A SENSOR IN THE ROAD, UM, A COUPLE OF HUNDRED FEET IN ADVANCE OF THE ROAD.
AND WHAT HAPPENS IS WHEN THAT, WHEN A VEHICLE PASSES OVER, THAT, THAT'S ACKNOWLEDGED.
AND WHAT WE TRY NOT TO DO IS TURN THE LIGHT YELLOW AND RED AT THE WRONG TIME.
THAT THAT PERSON WOULD BE CAUGHT IN A, OH, SHOULD I GO, SHOULD I STOP? AND, AND RIGHT.
AND MOST OF THE TIME IT'S GOOD.
BUT WHAT IS OUT THERE IS AN OLDER TECHNOLOGY.
IT'S A LOOP THAT'S LOCATED AT A PARTICULAR DISTANCE AWAY.
AND THAT'S A FIXED POINT OF INFORMATION
[01:25:01]
FOR THE, THE TRAFFIC SIGNAL TO RE TO REACT TO.THERE'S A NEWER TECHNOLOGY OUT THERE THAT LOOKS AT THE ENTIRE APPROACH AND BASICALLY EVALUATES WHERE ARE THEY, HOW FAST ARE THEY GOING? AND THEN I'M GONNA CHANGE WHAT I DO AT MY, AT THE TRAFFIC LIGHT TO TRY AND KEEP THEM FROM GETTING A RED LIGHT RUNNING SITUATION.
SO HERE'S A LOCATION WHERE, UH, YOU KNOW, UPGRADING THAT TECHNOLOGY TO LOOK BETTER AT APPROACHING CARS BECAUSE WE OBVIOUSLY HAVE A PROBLEM, RIGHT? SO WE'VE GOT SIX RED LIGHT RUNNING CRASHES.
WHAT ABOUT THE TECHNOLOGY THAT'S OUT THERE NOW? AND THEY USE IT MOSTLY FOR SPEED, BUT COULD YOU USE IT FOR PEOPLE RUNNING RED LIGHTS A CAMERA? OKAY.
UM, SO YOU, YOU FLIP TO PAGE SIX OF MY SUMMARY
A PERFECT PLACE WHERE A CAMERA MIGHT HELP US ABSOLUTELY.
CATCH PEOPLE START GETTING OUT TICKETS, PEOPLE, THAT WORD GETS OUT.
AND, AND IT IS MORE FOR A DETERRENT THAN IT IS.
YOU KNOW, A A REVENUE GENERATOR, RIGHT? EXACTLY.
SO THE RED LIGHT RUNNING CAMERA SITUATION STARTED OFF IN THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA AND THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA WAS THE ONLY LOCATION THAT THEY WERE PERMITTED.
THE STATE WOULD ONLY, THAT WAS THE ONLY LOCATION THE STATE WOULD ALLOW THEM TO BE.
AND NOW ANY MUNICIPALITY CAN COME IN AND WORK WITH THE DEPARTMENT TO GET RED LIGHT RUNNING CAMERAS.
UM, THE WAY THAT WORKS, IT REALLY DOESN'T GENERATE A LOT OF INCOME FOR THE MUNICIPALITY.
UM, SO THE TICKETS THAT ARE GENERATED FROM THAT SYSTEM, THE FIRST THING THEY DO IS GO TO PAY FOR THE OPERATION OF THE CAMERA ITSELF.
YOU KNOW, SO THERE'S SOME COSTS ASSOCIATED WITH THAT, UH, MAINTENANCE OF THE EQUIPMENT, UM, YOU KNOW, THE PROCESSING OF, OF GENERATING THE TICKETS AND ALL OF THAT.
THE REST OF THE REVENUE FROM THE TICKETS GOES INTO A STATEWIDE FUND, WHICH YOU'VE PROBABLY HEARD ABOUT, IS CALLED THE AUTOMATED RED LIGHT ENFORCEMENT FUND, THE A RLE.
AND THE REASON YOU'VE PROBABLY HEARD ABOUT IT IS BECAUSE THE TOWNSHIP GOES FOR GRANTS THAT ARE FUNDED FROM THAT SOURCE.
NOW HERE, HERE'S THE, THE, THE TRICK.
IF UPPER PROVIDENCE WANTED TO MOVE FORWARD WITH RED LIGHT RUNNING CAMERAS, AND THERE ARE A COUPLE OF LOCATIONS WHERE THEY, IT MIGHT MAKE A LOT OF SENSE, THIS BEING ONE OF THEM, THE TOWNSHIP THEN GETS PRIORITY FOR THOSE GRANTS BECAUSE WE'RE ESSENTIALLY ONE OF THE LOCATIONS THAT'S PUTTING MONEY INTO THE POT.
SO WE GET PRIORITY TO GET MONEY OUT OF THE POT.
THERE'S ALWAYS A COST TO EVERYTHING.
WHAT, WHAT, WHAT, YOU KNOW, BUT I SEE, YOU KNOW, I'M LOOKING AT THIS.
I SEE, UH, YOU KNOW, ALMOST ALL OF 'EM EXCEPT FOR A COUPLE, AT LEAST TWO, I DON'T SEE SOMEBODY WAS HURT.
SO WHAT, WHAT COST DO YOU PUT TO THAT? I DON'T DISAGREE.
I MEAN, I, IF, IF IT IS SOME DRUNK GUY RUNNING, YOU KNOW, THAT'S ONE THING.
BUT IF, IF HE'S HITTING A KID, THE KID IS HURT, THE COST IS IRRELEVANT.
UM, BUT I'M NOT SAYING THAT'S GONNA STOP WITH DRUNK ANYHOW.
I DON'T KNOW OTHER THAN HE WOULD GET CAUGHT.
SO BRIAN, THERE, THERE'S A, THERE'S AN INITIAL COST RIGHT? OF GETTING THEM INSTALLED AND YES.
AND ALL OF THAT, THE COST OF THE EQUIPMENT, AND THEN THERE'S AN ONGOING OPERATIONAL COST FOR THE MONITORING AND PROCESSING RIGHT.
BUT THE ONGOING OPERATIONAL COST IS COVERED BY THE TICKET REVENUE THAT'S GENERATED.
WHO, WHO DOES THE MONITORING? THE, THE STATE DOES.
I, I'VE BEEN TRAVELING BACK AND FORTH TO, TO MARYLAND IN THE LAST FEW WEEKS AND IT'S AMAZING ON, ON THE GPS HOW MANY TIMES THEY'LL SAY APPROACHING RED LIGHT COUNTY.
I MEAN, IT, IT'S ALL OVER THE PLACE.
WELL IN MARYLAND WHERE DEPENDS PENNSYLVANIA BETWEEN HERE AND SO IN, IN PENNSYLVANIA AND MARYLAND, A LONG WAY.
AND THE BENEFIT THERE REALLY IS THAT, AGAIN, THIS IS NOT MEANT TO BE REVENUE GENERATOR.
IT'S MEANT TO ENCOURAGE PEOPLE IF YOU CAN SAFELY STOP, STOP, STOP.
AND SO TO HAVE THAT MENTALITY REINFORCED, WHETHER IT'S THROUGH A GPS OR THE SIGNS
[01:30:01]
THAT WE GOT OUT, YOU KNOW, THEY GET PUT OUT THERE, ALL OF THAT, THAT HELPS.UM, THE OTHER THING, JUST TO LET YOU KNOW, UM, AT ARCOLA THERE IS A PEDESTRIAN UPGRADE THAT IS, HAS BEEN APPROVED BY
WE'RE WAITING TO SEE IF, IF THAT'S AWARDED.
SO THAT'S SOMETHING THAT WILL BE COMING TO OUR COLA.
UM, AND THEN AT HOPWOOD, UM, THERE HAVE BEEN A COUPLE OF CRASHES.
OUR RECOMMENDATION THOUGH IS THAT'S GONNA BE SIGNALED AS PART OF THE YERKEY STATION.
SO DON'T, UH, WE WOULDN'T DO ANYTHING THERE.
WE WOULD LET THAT I'M SURPRISED, SURPRISED, I'M SURPRISED OF THE LIMITED NUMBER.
IT, IT WAS A LOT LESS THAN WE THOUGHT IT WOULD BE THERE BECAUSE THAT IS SUCH A DANGER, ESPECIALLY SOMEBODY MAKING A LEFT TURN.
ALRIGHT, SO IF WE MOVE ON TO TOWNSHIP WINE, UM, REALLY NOTHING AT RITEN HOUSE, UM, AT LINFIELD TRAP, YOU'LL NOTICE THERE'S A NUMBER OF CRASHES IN BETWEEN THE TWO INTERSECTIONS.
UM, SO IT'S A DISCUSSION ITEM THAT, THAT I'D LIKE TO, TO PURSUE WITH PENDO.
YEARS AGO THERE WAS A RED LIGHT AHEAD WARNING SIGN AS YOU CAME NORTHBOUND BECAUSE OF THE CREST VERTICAL.
AND THAT WAS RECENTLY CHANGED TO A WATCH FOR STOP VEHICLES.
AND THAT'S PENNDOT'S PREFERRED WHEN, WHEN YOU ARE CONCERNED ABOUT COMING OVER AND, AND HAVING A, A QUEUE, WHICH IS WHERE WE THINK WE WE'RE SEEING A BUNCH OF THESE REAR END CRASHES.
PEOPLE COME UP OVER THE HILL AND, UH, YOU KNOW, ENCOUNTER THE QUEUE AND THEY'RE NOT PAYING ATTENTION.
UM, OR JUST BECAUSE THEY'RE GOING TOO FAST AND THEN THEY GET SURPRISED.
UH, SO PENNDOT'S PREFERRED IS THAT WATCH FOR STOP VEHICLES, BUT OBVIOUSLY THAT'S NOT WORKING.
AND SO IS THERE SOME OTHER MECHANISMS THAT WE CAN EMPLOY TO, TO HELP IMPROVE THAT? UM, THAT'S MORE GONNA BE A DIALOGUE WITH PENNDOT AS FAR AS WHAT'S THE SOLUTION THERE ON THEIR ROAD.
UM, SO THAT'S KIND OF IN BETWEEN THAT WHOLE, THAT WHOLE TOWNSHIP LINE ROAD IS A MESS BECAUSE IT'S NOT, IT'S NOT WIDE ENOUGH.
THAT'S WHAT REALLY NEEDS TO HAPPEN THERE.
IT NEEDS TO BE, YEAH, IT NEEDS TO BE FOUR LANES THERE, BUT FOR THE AMOUNT OF TRAFFIC, IT'S ON THAT ROAD AND THE SCHOOL AND THE SHOPPING CENTER AND ALL THIS STUFF.
S YEAH, IT'S SRES IT'S JUST A ROAD, YOU KNOW, AGAIN, I'M NOT SURE YOU'RE GONNA FIX IT BECAUSE IT'S JUST A ROAD ISSUE.
THAT DEFINITELY IS A ROAD ISSUE.
THAT'S THE OTHER TOWN CENTER TOO, RIGHT? IT'S SHARED RIGHT? YEAH.
WE'RE, WE'RE ON, WE'RE ON ONE SIDE AND YEP.
UM, ON SHEET 2 0 2, YOU'VE GOT UPPER PROVIDENCE AT THE SHOPPING CENTER THERE.
UM, THIS IS ANOTHER ONE OF THOSE FLASHING YELLOW ARROW LOCATIONS AND LOOKING AT, AT POTENTIAL UPGRADES TO OUR DILEMMA ZONES.
UM, AND THEN UP AT RIDGE PIKE, UM, THAT'S, THERE'S A BIG CLUSTER, UH, OF, OF CRASHES AT RIDGE PIKE.
UM, CAN, CAN USE THAT FLASHING YELLOW ARROW UPGRADE.
ALL FOUR OF THEM HAVE THE, THE TRADITIONAL DOGHOUSE AND, AND MAKING THAT IMPROVEMENT.
UM, AND WE'VE GOT SOME RED LIGHT, UM, I'M CONFUSED.
SO, UH, ESSENTIALLY YOU GOT VEHICLE IN, IN TWO LANES AND THEY, THEY CAME TOGETHER.
UM, SO I, YOU KNOW, ONE, ONE, YOU KNOW, BASICALLY HIT OFF THE SIDE.
UM, AND, AND ADMITTEDLY, YOU KNOW, WE'RE GETTING, WE JUST HAVE A VERY LIMITED AMOUNT.
WE DON'T GET THE FULL POLICE NARRATIVE.
UM, SO SOME OF THESE, IT'S US TRYING TO INTERPRET AND MOST OF THESE AT, AT THAT INTERSECTION, IF YOU LOOK AT IT, MOST OF THEM ARE MINOR ACCIDENTS, RIGHT? UH, YEAH, THERE'S A FEW WITH INJURIES, BUT MOST OF THEM ARE, MOST OF 'EM ARE, ARE THE MINOR.
SO THAT TELLS ME PEOPLE ARE CONFUSED MAYBE ABOUT WHAT LANE THEY SHOULD BE IN, WHERE THEY'RE GOING, YOU KNOW, I WANNA GO TO THE SHOPPING CENTER, HOW I'M IN THE WRONG LANE, I GOTTA GET OVER WHATEVER.
THIS IS THE, THE CORNER, THE WAWA'S ON.
CHUNK OF THESE ARE THE GOING INTO THE DRIVEWAY A WAWA, WHICH IS IN MY OPINION TOO CLOSE TO THE INTERSECTION.
BUT WAWA'S, OUR WAWA'S IS ANOTHER HOLE.
WE SHOULD STILL, THERE'S STILL EIGHT, THERE'S STILL EIGHT INJURIES HERE.
I MEAN THERE'S STILL A LOT, BUT I'M JUST SAYING THERE WAS, IT SEEMS TO BE A LOT OF PEOPLE LOOKING AT THE LEGEND, THEY DON'T KNOW WHERE THEY'RE GOING.
[01:35:01]
THEY'RE TURNING ALL BECAUSE THEY'RE TRYING TO GET SOMEWHERE.UM, MOVING TO RIDGE PIKE, GETTING CLOSE TO THE END.
UM, REALLY, UH, SO THIS IS KIND OF BACKWARDS FROM THE WAY WE'VE BEEN DOING.
WE'VE BEEN GOING LEFT TO RIGHT NOW BECAUSE OF THE WAY I ORIENTED THINGS.
SO, UH, NOTHING REALLY SIGNIFICANT AT KLEIN.
UH, THEN YOU GET TO THE COURT AT UPPER PROVIDENCE AND THE SHOPS AT UPPER PROVIDENCE, THIS IS ANOTHER FLASHING YELLOW ARROW, UM, CONSIDERATION.
YOU SEE SOME CONCENTRATIONS OF, UM, BOTH NORTH AND SOUTH OF, OF, YOU KNOW, NINE OF THOSE CRASHES INVOLVE THOSE TWO LEFT TURN MOVEMENT.
UM, AND NOW WE'RE GONNA PUT A CAR WASH SO PEOPLE ARE GONNA BE TURNING INTO.
SO THOSE, THOSE ARE ALSO THINGS THAT WE KIND OF NEED TO WORK, I'LL WORK WITH JEFF ON IS, YOU KNOW, SOME OF THOSE DEVELOPMENTS THAT I'M JUST NOT AWARE OF YET.
NOW THAT I KNOW THE CAR WASH THERE, YOU KNOW, IF THAT'S SOMETHING THAT'S COMING IN, IS THAT SOMETHING THAT WE CAN GET A DEVELOPER TO, TO DO AS OPPOSED TO THE TOWNSHIP? YOU KNOW, IT'S, WE'RE NOT ASKING THEM TO BUILD LANES.
WE'RE NOT ASKING THEM TO DO A SIGNIFICANT ROAD PROJECT, BUT HERE'S SOMETHING THAT THEY COULD DO BECAUSE WE'VE IDENTIFIED IT AS SOMETHING TO CONSIDER.
SO, UH, AND THEN THE OTHER POINT THAT I WANT TO MAKE ON RIDGE PIPE, UM, IF YOU LOOK ON THE LEFT HAND SIDE THERE, THERE ARE TWO PEDESTRIAN CRASHES, ONE OF WHICH WAS FATAL.
AND WHAT WE'RE NOTICING IS THAT LOCATION SEEMS TO BE CORRELATING PRETTY WELL WITH THE SET.
I WAS GONNA SAY THE BUS STOP, RIGHT? THE BUS STOP.
AND SO IF YOU LOOK AT CRASH 20 UP IN THE, THE UPPER LEFT HAND CORNER, YOU'LL NOTICE THAT WAS SEPTEMBER AT ALMOST 8:00 PM SEPTEMBER AT 8:00 PM IT'S GETTING DARK.
SO WHAT DO YOU THINK HAPPENED? SOMEBODY STEPPED OFF THE CURB OR BEFORE THE BUS GOT THERE OR? I I, I, MY GUESS IS EITHER ONE OF TWO WAYS.
EITHER THEY WERE RUSHING TO GET ACROSS SO THAT THEY'D BE THERE WHEN THE BUS GOT THERE.
'CAUSE THEY SAW IT AND THEY, YOU KNOW, MADE A POOR ADJUSTMENT.
OR AFTER THEY GOT DROPPED OFF, THEY WERE HEADING TO THE OTHER SIDE OF THE ROAD AND DIDN'T WALK DOWN TO THE INTERSECTION WHERE WE HAVE PROTECTIONS.
BUT THE OTHER THING THAT WE'VE NOTICED IS IT'S DARK IN THAT AREA.
THERE ARE NO STREET LIGHTS IN THAT AREA.
SO WITH THE PEDESTRIANS, WE NOW HAVE THE BIKE LANES THAT PENNDOT PUT IN, IN THAT AREA.
SO NOW YOU'RE ENCOURAGING NON-MOTORIZED VEHICLES, YOU KNOW, GETTING SOME STREETLIGHT ALONG THAT CORRIDOR.
IT IT IS A COMMERCIAL AREA, YOU KNOW, IT'S NOT LIKE WE'RE, WE'RE IN A RESIDENTIAL AREA WHERE YOU DON'T WANT STREETLIGHTS LIGHTING UP EVERYBODY'S HOUSES.
SO YOU WOULD THINK ON ONE HAND, MAYBE IT'S LIGHT ENOUGH, BUT DO WE GET THAT SPILL SPILL OUT ONTO THE ROADWAY AREA? SO THAT'S, THAT'S AN AREA THAT WE WANT TO, TO LOOK AT A LITTLE BIT FURTHER.
SO THIS, THOSE TWO ACCIDENTS OF PEDESTRIANS, THAT'S BEFORE YOU GET TO TOWNSHIP LINE, RIGHT? IS BETWEEN THE YES.
GETTING INTO THE SHOPPING CENTER.
BETWEEN THE SHOPPING CENTER AND TOWN LINE ROAD.
SO THEY'RE RUNNING THE WAWA OR SOMETHING TOO.
AND THEN FINALLY BLACKROCK ROAD.
UM, AND IF YOU LOOK AT, UM, 29 HERE, UM, WE'VE GOT A TON OF CRASHES THAT INVOLVE ROUTE 29, LEFT TURN MOVEMENT NORTHBOUND.
UM, THAT'S ACTUALLY GOING TO BE ADDRESSED BY QUEST.
UM, THAT'S SOMETHING THAT PENDOT IS, IS MAKING THEM DO AS PART OF THEIR DEVELOPMENT IS TO CHANGE THAT TO A PROTECTED, PROHIBITED LEFT TURN MOVEMENT.
UM, SO THEY WILL ONLY BE ABLE TO TURN LEFT WHEN THEY'VE GOT A PROTECTED ARROW.
UM, THAT SHOULD SIGNIFICANTLY REDUCE THAT CRASH POTENTIAL.
'CAUSE THEN DRIVERS AREN'T MAKING A, A SAFETY DECISION.
THEY'RE, THEY'RE UNDER CONTROL.
IS THAT A YELLOW FLASHING THERE NOW OR IS THAT A
[01:40:01]
GREEN LIGHT PROTECTED RIGHT NOW? IT IT IS THE DOG HOUSE.NOT TO A FLASHING YELLOW ARROW, BUT A PERMANENT, UH, THE LITTLE GREEN GREEN ARROW ONLY.
UM, BUT THE FLASHING YELLOW ARROW IS SOMETHING THAT WE WOULD LOOK TO SUGGEST.
UM, FOR THE BLACKROCK ROAD APPROACHES.
UH, YOU SEE THERE'S A, A FEW, NOT AS MANY, BUT THERE ARE, YOU KNOW, THERE'S STILL A HANDFUL OF THOSE.
AND AGAIN, JUST MAKING THAT DOGHOUSE TO FLASHING YELLOW ARROW IMPROVEMENT, UH, CAN BE A SIGNIFICANT BENEFIT.
I'M STILL AMAZED EVERY ONE OF THESE PEOPLE DRIVING INTO STUFF.
I'M JUST, I WOULD LOVE TO KNOW WHAT THAT'S ALL ABOUT.
BUT EVERY ONE OF THESE YOU HAVE SOMEBODY JUST RUNNING INTO SOMETHING.
SO, UH, THE LAST PAGE OF, OF YOUR, YOU CAN'T FIX THAT
AND THAT'S STILL GONNA BE A, A LITTLE OBJECT.
UH, SO JUST TO, TO WRAP UP ON, ON PAGE SIX OF YOUR EIGHT AND A HALF BY 11 SHEET, UM, WE TALKED ABOUT THE RED LIGHT CAMERAS.
SO THAT'S SOMETHING THAT WE MAY WANT TO CONSIDER, UH, AT, AT SEVERAL OF THE INTERSECTIONS.
UM, THE FLASHING YELLOW ARROW INSTALLATIONS, UH, I THINK WE'VE GOT FIVE INTERSECTIONS THAT THOSE MAKE SENSE TO, TO GO AFTER.
AND THEN THE LAST PART THERE IS THE, UH, THE STREET LIGHT IN THE, UH, IN THE RIDGE PIKE AREA THERE IN THE COMMERCIAL SECTION WHERE WE'VE SEEN A COUPLE OF PEDESTRIAN CRASHES.
UM, SO THOSE WOULD BE BE THE OVERALL CONSIDERATIONS.
UM, YOU KNOW, WE, WE CAN PUT A KIND OF A, AN OVERALL PROPOSAL TOGETHER OF, YOU KNOW, WHAT WOULD IT TAKE TO ADDRESS PARTS OF THIS.
AND WE CAN KIND OF PICK AND CHOOSE AND, AND MAKE A RECOMMENDATION AND SEE HOW THAT WORKS OUT WITH, UM, COMING UP ON BUDGET SEASON.
UM, YOU KNOW, TRY AND, AND SEE IF WE CAN GET SOME OF THAT INTO THE NEXT YEAR'S BUDGET AND THEN START TO, TO GET SOME OF THESE IMPLEMENTED.
I THINK THAT'S REALLY THE, THE BEST PATH FORWARD IS BY THIS MEETING NEXT MONTH, BY THIS MEETING NEXT MONTH, TO HAVE A MEMO FROM BRIAN OUTLINING THOSE THINGS.
BECAUSE I THINK IT'S THE 20TH, THE 25TH, AND THEN THE FIRST WEEKEND OF OCTOBER HAVING BUDGET SESSIONS WHERE IT'S A WORKSHOP.
SO IF WE, IF BRIAN PUTS THAT TOGETHER AND WE PUT IT ON OUR AGENDA FOR SOME TIME IN SEPTEMBER, YOU CAN MAKE THAT RECOMMENDATION, THEN WE CAN TAKE IT TO THE BOARD AT ONE OF THOSE MEETINGS.
'CAUSE GILMORE IS ALWAYS INCLUDED IN THOSE MEETINGS.
WE CAN TAKE IT TO THE BOARD AND SAY, HERE'S SOME THINGS THAT THE, THAT THE PLANNING COMMISSION RECOMMENDS BASED ON TRAFFIC SAFETY, HERE'S THE GENERAL COST OF IT.
AND WE CAN FOLD THAT INTO, HOPEFULLY FOLD THAT INTO SOMEBODY'S BUDGET.
THAT SOMEONE ELSE I THINK, I THINK IT IS.
I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, LIKE I SAY, I THINK YOU'VE OPENED OUR EYES HERE, BRIAN.
SO THAT'LL BE OUR PLAN OF ACTION BY THE, THE MIDDLE MEETING OF THE MONTH, THE SECOND MEETING OF SEPTEMBER.
WE'LL HAVE A MEMO FOR YOU TO GO OVER AND LOOK AT AND, UM, MAKE A RECOMMENDATION.
THAT'S, THAT'S JUST TERRIFIC BRIAN.
THAT'S REALLY, YEAH, THIS IS WELL DONE.
[DISCUSSION: FUTURE AGENDA ITEMS]
LOOK FOR YOUR NEXT JOB.BRIAN, I NEED YOU TO GO OUT TO THESE INTERSECTIONS AND SEE WHAT THE HELL THESE PEOPLE ARE RUNNING INTO PICTURES.
WE, I WANT SEE WHAT THESE PEOPLE, HEY, HOW MANY CURVE VERSUS, ALRIGHT, SO TO WRAP THIS UP IN THE MINUTE AND A HALF THAT I, I HAVE LEFT ON BY TOM'S CLOCK.
I DON'T MEAN TO BE NO, I'M JUST GIVING YOU A HARD TIME, TOM.
SEPTEMBER 3RD, OUR NEXT MEETING WE'RE GONNA HAVE EMERY MANOR.
THEY HAVE A PRELIMINARY PLAN IN.
WE'LL HAVE THAT AS OUR, OUR, ONE OF OUR DISCUSSIONS.
IT'S THE SEVEN LOT SUBDIVISION ON, ON ONE 13.
UM, AND THEN 5 92 SOUTH MENNONITE ROAD, THE AG RETAINMENT PORTION OF THAT WILL COME BEFORE YOU FOR DISCUSSION OF THE CONDITIONAL USE AND THE TENTATIVE PLAN.
UM, SEPTEMBER 17TH IT SAYS TO BE DETERMINED, BUT NOW WE HAVE SOMETHING FOR THAT AGENDA.
UM, AND THEN, UH, WE'LL SEE WHAT ELSE POPS UP.
WE DON'T REALLY HAVE MUCH LAND DEVELOPMENT THAT NEEDS TO BE, NOTHING NEEDS TO BE ON THAT AGENDA, BUT WE WILL MAYBE WE'LL WORK TOWARDS SOME RICH
[01:45:01]
PIKE STUFF.AND OBVIOUSLY THIS CRASH MEMO, WHAT HAPPENED TO, UH, HESSON ROAD? UM, BUT THEY WERE ON THE AGENDA THEN THEY BACK NOT, DIDN'T THEY? OR NO, THEY'RE STILL ON THE AGENDA.
UM, THAT MIGHT HAVE TO GO ON SEPTEMBER 3RD TOO, NOW THAT I THINK ABOUT IT.
BUT YEAH, SO WE'LL HAVE TO HAVE, I'LL HAVE TO WORK THAT OUT.
AND THEN THE ENVIRONMENTAL ADVISORY COUNCIL MEETINGS ON THE 17TH, UM, AGENDA TO BE DETERMINED.
WE MIGHT TALK ABOUT MOVING THAT MEETING BECAUSE THERE, THERE'S A CHANCE WE COULD DO IT AS A JOINT MEETING WITH AN EDUCATIONAL DISCUSSION ABOUT THE OPEN SPACE REFERENDUM IN OCTOBER.
WE'RE KIND OF WORKING OUT THROUGH SOME OF THAT WITH, UM, KATE FROM NATURAL LANDS TRUST.
SO OTHER THAN THAT I'M, WE'RE GOOD TO GO.
UM, ANY OTHER QUESTIONS FOR JEFF OR COMMENTS OR SUGGESTIONS OR, UH, JUST AS IDEAS AS PART OF, AS PART OF THE PACKET THAT, THAT WE RECEIVED, DOES THIS, UH, RULES AND REGULATION FOR PUBLIC BE OH, OH YES.
I I DIDN'T TALK ABOUT THAT BECAUSE YES, MY AGENDA IS ALL JACKED OFF.
UM, TABLE THAT IF IF YEAH, WON'T EVERYBODY COULD HAVE SEEN IT.
WON'T EVERYBODY KIND OF LOOK AT IT? WE CAN TALK ON EMAIL TOO.
WE CAN THROW SOME IDEAS OUT OR THOUGHTS.
CAN WE DO THAT? YES, THAT'S PERFECTLY FINE.
AND AND IT IS, IT IS NOT MEANT TO BE.
WE HAVE TO STICK TO THESE RULES.
IT, IT REALLY COMES DOWN TO THAT IN THE, YOU KNOW, WHEN WE HAVE A MEETING LIKE WE DID THE LAST MEETING WHERE THINGS ARE GETTING REPETITIVE AND THINGS ARE GOING REALLY LONG, THAT WE HAVE A WAY TO ENFORCE SOME RULES.
IF WE AT A MEETING LIKE TONIGHT, WE, WE DON'T NEED TO LIMIT MRS. RAKI OR, AND I MISS THE OTHER WOMAN'S NAME.
WE DON'T NEED TO LIMIT THEM TO THREE MINUTES BECAUSE IT'S PRETTY INFORMAL.
BUT IF WE HAVE A ROOM FULL OF PEOPLE AND WE, WE WANT TO FALL BACK TO THE RULES, WE CERTAINLY CAN.
I THINK THAT'S PROBABLY A BETTER IDEA THAN WE HAD TO.
WE GOTTA GET A LITTLE BIT BETTER CONTROL, UH, ON, ON THOSE LARGER, UM, PROJECTS.
IT JUST GIVES US SOMETHING TO FALL BACK.
MAYBE WHEN UH, WE INVITE THEM UP AND THEY INTRODUCE THEMSELVES, WE ADVISE THEM IF THERE'S THREE MINUTES.
WELL, AND, AND AT THE SUPERVISOR'S MEETING, I DO HAVE A CLOCK.
AND, AND IF THAT'S WHAT THE BOARD, IF, IF YOU DECIDE AT THE BEGINNING OF THE MEETING THAT, LOOK, WE HAVE ENOUGH PEOPLE IN THE AUDIENCE, WE FEEL WE'RE GONNA HAVE ENOUGH PUBLIC COMMENT.
WE'RE IN TWO TO THREE MINUTE CLOCK.
THAT'S A QUESTION FOR ZACH, HOW THAT GETS DONE.
BUT THAT'S, THAT'S SOMETHING LIKE WE HAD TWO PEOPLE HERE.
I MEAN, I THINK GIVE THEM THEIR TIME WAS REASONABLE.
I THINK WE ALL DISCUSSED THINGS AND WE ALL, BUT AS JEFF SAYS, IF WE'VE GOT A ROOM FULL OF PEOPLE WE KNOW WE'RE GOING GET, AND THE PROBLEM IS A LOT OF IT TURNS OUT TO BE REPETITIVE.
AND THAT, BUT THAT'S HARD TO CONTROL BECAUSE I UNDERSTAND THAT SOMEBODY COMES UP, YOU HAVE TO LET 'EM SPEAK.
BUT THAT'S THE POINT THOUGH, IS IF, IF YOU GIVE THEM A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF TIME TO LET 'EM, LET 'EM BE REPETITIVE, BUT THEN, OKAY, YOU'VE SAID, YOU'RE SAYING WE'VE HEARD IT, THAT YOU GOODBYE BECAUSE WE TELL, WE TOLD HIM THAT LAST FEW.
I THINK YOU HAVE TO LET THEM SAY SOMETHING NEW.
OTHERWISE ONLY HAD ONE PERSON WITH ONE THING.
WE WOULDN'T REACT TO THAT EVER CUT ANYBODY OFF FROM COMING UP AND IT'S A, THAT'S A COVER.
WELL, AND EVEN WITH A THREE MINUTE TIME LIMIT ON MONDAY, WE STILL HAD ALMOST A FULL HOUR OF RESIDENT COMMENT.
AND THERE WERE ONLY TWO PEOPLE THAT MADE THAT CAME UP TWICE.
AND AND THE CHAIRMAN PUT A STOP TO THAT AS SOON AS THE SECOND PERSON.
LIKE, NO, WE'RE NOT, WE'RE NOT GETTING A SECOND BITE AT THE APPLE THAT WERE STOPPING THAT.
AND THAT'S UP, THAT'S UP TO THE CHAIR.
WE HAVE TO DECIDE THAT WE AIN'T GOTTA LET PEOPLE COME UP HERE AND YOU KNOW, SAY IT AGAIN.
OR, YOU KNOW, ESPECIALLY AFTER SOMEBODY THINKS A POSITIVE COMMENT LIKE AL DID NOW ACKNOW.
AND THEN SOMEBODY SAY, OH I GUY'S CRAZY.
I MEAN, THAT THING, YOU KNOW, WE GONNA STOP IT.
SO EVERYBODY KIND OF LOOK AT THAT DOCUMENT AND WE CAN TALK ON EMAIL.
PUT THAT ON THE AGENDA FOR THE 17TH 17.
WE DIDN'T GET THAT COPY ALREADY, DID WE? IT SHOULD BE IN THE PACKET.
IT'S NOT IN THE PACKET I PRINTED BECAUSE I SENT THAT OUT AND I DIDN'T GET YOUR OTHER ONE.
I I WILL SEND IT AGAIN TOMORROW INDIVIDUALLY.
ALRIGHT, I'LL TAKE A MOTION TO ADJOURN.
I'LL MAKE A MOTION THAT WE ADJOURN THIS MEETING.