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[Planning Commission on May 21, 2025.]
COMMISSION FOR UPPER PROVIDENCE TOWNSHIP FOR MAY 21ST, 2025.AND THIS YEAR IS BLOWING BY LIKE THEY ALL DO.
UM, SO WE, UM, DON'T HAVE ANY APPLICANTS HERE TONIGHT.
UM, WE JUST ARE GONNA TALK ABOUT INTERNAL THINGS, UM, AND, UH, THINGS WE'RE WORKING ON FOR UPDATING SOME OF OUR DOCUMENTS.
BUT IN THE MEANTIME, I'LL TAKE PUBLIC COMMENT FOR ANY NON AGENDA ITEMS SINCE WE HAVE TWO LADIES SITTING OUT THERE.
THIS WOULD BE YOUR OPPORTUNITY TO TALK ABOUT WHATEVER.
JUST IDENTIFY YOURSELF AND ADDRESS AND, UM, ACTUALLY, I'M SORRY, WE HAVE TO APPROVE THE AGENDA, PLEASE.
UH, EVERYBODY APPROVE THE, ANY PROBLEMS WITH THE AGENDA, GET A MOTION TO APPROVE IT.
I'LL MAKE A MOTION TO APPROVE THE AGENDA, UH, FOR MAY 21ST.
ALRIGHT, MA'AM, JUST STAND UP THERE AND GIVE YOUR NAME AND ADDRESS AND CINDY, 1 35 WHITAKER AVENUE.
I HAVE A QUESTION THAT MAY MAKE MY, A LITTLE, I'M CONCERNED ABOUT THE AVENUE ACTUALLY GONNA BE TALKING ABOUT THAT.
AND IF YOU SAY JUNE 4TH, THIS IS, THAT'S WHY I'M GONNA SAY MORE, BECAUSE THAT'S WHY, WE'LL, I DON'T THINK IT'S GONNA BE JUNE 4TH.
I DON'T KNOW WHEN I, I CAN'T BE A HUNDRED PERCENT SURE IT'S NOT JUNE 4TH, BUT I I DON'T THINK IT'S GOING TO BE JUNE 4TH BECAUSE THERE'S STILL SOME CONVERSATION GOING ON WITH THE APPLICANT AND STUFF LIKE THAT.
SO, SO THAT WAS MY MAIN THINGS.
WERE GONNA BE SPECIFIC THINGS ABOUT ONE 40, BUT I HAVE A GENERAL QUESTION THAT I JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND, AND I WISH ONE 40 A ZONE COMMERCIAL AND HOW CAN RESIDENTIAL PROPERTY BE FIT THERE? AND I KNOW YOU'LL, YOU'LL EXPLAIN, BUT HOW CAN THAT HAPPEN? THERE'S ALL KINDS OF BLAH, BLAH, BLAH, UNPRECEDENTED BLAH, BLAH, BLAH AND ALL THAT, BUT REALLY DOESN'T GO AGAINST ZONING.
I THINK THAT'S ONE OF THE ISSUES THAT ARE GOING ON RIGHT.
WHY IT, IT'S NOT HERE YET, BUT JEFF CAN EXPLAIN.
WELL, THE PROCESS FOR, I KNOW FOR CHANGING IT, HE'S EXPLAINED IT TO ME AND I, I GET WHAT YOU'RE SAYING, BUT I DON'T UNDERSTAND THE LOGIC BEHIND IT OR THE REASON BEHIND IT.
AND THE WHOLE IDEA ABOUT ZONING AND HAVE ZONING CLASSIFICATIONS.
YOU GO BY THE CLASSIFICATIONS NOT HAVE THAT CLASSIFICATION AND SAY, OH, WELL WE CAN, WELL, I CAN'T SPEAK FOR WHEN IT WAS WRITTEN BACK IN THE MID EIGHTIES, BECAUSE I WASN'T OBVIOUSLY HERE, HERE, HERE,
BUT MY PROFESSIONAL ASSUMPTION ON HOW THIS WAS WRITTEN WAS THAT IT WAS WRITTEN TO HAVE A MIXED USE PROFESSIONAL BUSINESS SLASH TOWNHOUSE SORT OF DEVELOPMENT IN THE PBO FOR CERTAIN AREAS.
MA'AM? I, I'M, YOU ASKED MY OPINION.
I'M TELLING YOU WHY I THINK THE TOWNHOUSES ARE IN THERE.
THAT, THAT YOU HAVE THE OPTION FOR THE TOWNHOUSES, THAT IT WAS JUST AN OPTION TO MAYBE MAKE A MIXED USE COMMUNITY, NOT NECESSARILY FOR YOUR DEVELOPMENT, BUT FOR OTHER PROPERTIES DEVELOPED UNDER PROFESSIONAL BUSINESS OFFICE.
I, I'M NOT SAYING I'M A HUNDRED PERCENT CORRECT, BUT I'VE WORKED WITH A LOT OF ZONING.
I CAN KIND OF GLEAN WHERE IT COMES FROM AND WHY IT'S WRITTEN THAT WAY.
I'M NOT WORRIED ABOUT BEING WRONG.
ALL I CAN TELL YOU IS THE OPTION TO BUILD TOWNHOUSES IS IN PBO.
WE'VE, WE'VE HAD ONE DEVELOPMENT OVER AT LEWIS AND VAUGHN THAT'S DEVELOPED UNDER THAT PROVISION IN THE PBO SECTION.
THE TOWNHOUSES THERE, THE 26TH PROFESSIONAL BUSINESS OFFICE.
SO SOMEWHERE, BUT THAT WASN'T LIKE THAT IN 1985.
ALL I CAN TELL YOU IS LIKE, I'VE LOOKED BACK AND I DON'T KNOW THE EXACT DATES, BUT I'VE LOOKED BACK TO WHEN PBO WAS THE NINETIES.
I DON'T THINK IT GOT SLIPPED IN.
NOTHING GETS SLIPPED IN, MA'AM.
I, I DON'T WANNA DEBATE SLIPPED IN OR NOT SLIPPED IN.
IT WAS PUT IN THE ORDINANCE AT SOME POINT DURING A PUBLIC PROCESS.
'CAUSE I NOTICED THIS GENTLEMAN IN EIGHTIES WHEN HE DID THIS, HE DID THAT AND THE LEASE AND THE WAY HE TOOK CARE OF THE SCHOOL AND BUILT THE SCHOOL AND MADE IT LOOK LIKE THE SCHOOL AND PUT THAT 99 YEAR LEASE IN BECAUSE HE DID NOT WANNA DISRUPT THE NEIGHBORHOOD.
AND HE WANTED IT TO STAY THAT WAY FOR 99 YEARS.
AND WHEN I WENT TO A MEETING, THAT'S WHERE HE SAYS IT'S GONNA
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BE LIKE THIS FOR 99 YEARS, I'M MAKING THE SCHOOL LOOK LIKE, JUST LIKE THE SCHOOL WE'RE HAVING THE PARKING IN THE BACK SO IT WON'T BE A DISRUPTION.HE EVEN HAD SPECIAL LAYING IN THERE.
SO IT, I DUNNO, IT GOES DOWN AND IT DOESN'T SHINE OUT A LOT.
AND HE TALKED ALL ABOUT THAT AND NOT DISTURBING THE NEIGHBORHOOD AND THE 99 YEAR LEASE ON THE OPEN SPACE, WAS IT TO BE OPEN SPACE TO FEEL LIKE IT WAS FOR 99 YEARS.
AND THAT'S HOW WE ALL THOUGHT IT WAS GONNA BE.
AND HE, I DON'T KNOW HIM WELL ENOUGH.
I SAW HIM UP A LOT AND YOU KNOW, BUT I'M SURE HIS ATTITUDE WAS TO HAVE THAT SCHOOL AND THAT OPEN SPACE FOR 99 YEARS AND PEOPLE IS NOT REALLY LIKE I I I UNDERSTAND ABSOLUTELY WHERE YOU'RE COMING FROM, BUT THE GENTLEMAN'S SON IS THE PERSON TRYING TO SELL IT.
AND WE CAN ONLY DEAL WITH THE HERE AND THE NOW, NOT WITH WHAT HE INTENDED AT THE 99 YEAR LEASE.
AND I APPRECIATE WHERE YOU'RE COMING FROM AND I WANT TO PRESERVE AS MUCH OPEN SPACE AS I POSSIBLY CAN.
I'M ON THE RECORD WITH THAT MULTIPLE, MULTIPLE, MULTIPLE YEARS.
BUT WE HAVE TO DEAL WITH WHAT WE HAVE, THE HERE AND THE NOW AND WHAT WE CAN DO LEGALLY.
AND THAT'S WHAT'S HAPPENING CURRENTLY.
I KNOW, I JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND HOW THE PDO SAYS COMMERCIAL CAN HAVE RESIDENTIAL.
WHY DO WE EVEN, WELL, YOU, YOU UNDERSTAND THAT THERE ARE OPPORTUNITIES, YOUR HONOR, THEY GO IN FRONT OF THE ZONING BOARD AND THEY CAN ASK FOR WAIVERS AND YOU KNOW, THEY CAN MAKE THEIR STATEMENT AND SHOW HERE'S WHAT WE'RE GONNA DO AND HERE'S WHAT WE'RE, AND THEY CAN ASK FOR THAT STUFF.
THAT DOESN'T MEAN THEY'RE GONNA GET IT.
AND LIKE I'VE SAID, I THINK THEY'RE GOING THROUGH SOME OF THAT RIGHT NOW.
BUT, BUT YOU KNOW THAT THERE'S ALWAYS, I MEAN, I'M SURE YOU'RE FAMILIAR WITH THE WHOLE PARK HOUSE THING.
I'M, I MEAN, YOU KNOW, WE FOUGHT THAT FOR TWO YEARS.
I'M COMING IN, I'M LEARNING MORE.
I'M COMING TO AS MANY MEETINGS AS I CAN, BUT I JUST, IT SEEMS LIKE 51 TOWN HOMES AND COMMERCIAL ARE SO OPPOSITE IT, THERE SHOULD BE AN IN BETWEEN NOT SUCH AN OFFICER.
AND THAT ALL COME TO PARKHOUSE WHEN HE PUT IN A 700, EXCUSE ME, COME DOWN TO PARKHOUSE WHEN HE PUT 700 NEW UNITS IN.
WAS THAT ZONE COMMERCIAL? WELL, IT WAS ZONED A WHOLE BUNCH OF THINGS THAT CHANGED OVER THE YEARS.
AND THAT'S WHAT I'M SAYING, THINGS CHANGED.
BUT THAT'S ALL I, IF IT'S NOT GONNA BE JUNE 4TH, NOT CURRENTLY A AGAIN, I, THE, THE AGENDA DOESN'T GET SET TILL THE WEEK BEFORE.
IT'S, IT'S NOT ON MY RADAR TO, TO, TO MOVE IT FORWARD.
SO I, I'M NOT, MY MY PLAN IS NOT TO HAVE IT ON THERE.
AND WE'RE ACTUALLY GONNA BE TALKING ABOUT THAT AT THE END OF THE MEETING, ABOUT WHAT'LL BE ON THE AGENDA FOR JUNE 4TH AND JUNE 19TH, OR SORRY, JUNE 4TH, JUNE 18TH, AND THEN END OF JULY.
SO, AND DO YOU KNOW WHERE TO FIND THE AGENDA AHEAD OF TIME FOR THE FUTURE? EXCUSE ME? DO YOU KNOW WHERE TO FIND THE AGENDA FOR THE AHEAD OF TIME? AHEAD OF TIME FOR THE FUTURE SO YOU CAN SEE WHEN IT'S ON.
IT'S HARD FOR ME TO UNDERSTAND AND I'M HEARING IT.
OH, DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHERE TO GET THE AGENDA? OH, OKAY, GREAT.
YOU KNOW, KEEP LOOKING ON THE WEBSITE AND ALL THAT AND LOOKING FOR THE OH, OKAY.
I, THAT WAS NOT, THAT WASN'T A COMMENT OF, I JUST WANNA MAKE SURE YOU, YOU KNOW, KEVIN JUST WANTS TO MAKE SURE YOU ARE HERE WHEN WE REALLY DO TALK ABOUT THAT PROJECT.
ANYBODY ELSE? I JUST HAVE A QUICK QUESTION.
YOU HAVE TO IDENTIFY YOURSELF.
MY PROPERTY, THIS PROPERTY WE'RE TALKING ABOUT.
UM, AND MY QUESTION IS, IF THERE'S A WAIVER GRANTED IN ZONING FOR A PROJECT, DOES THAT CHANGE THAT ZONING FOR ALL PROJECTS? NO.
WAIVERS ARE GRANTED FROM SUBDIVISION LAND DEVELOPMENT REQUIREMENTS THAT ARE PHYSICAL REQUIREMENTS, PIPE SIZE, SIDEWALK WIDTH, THINGS LIKE THAT.
A VARIANCE CAN BE GRANTED TO A SPECIFIC PROPERTY, ALLOWING SOMEONE TO DO SOMETHING THAT ISN'T WITHIN THE PARAMETERS OF ZONING.
WHETHER THAT'S A LARGER HOUSE THAN IS, THAN IS ALLOWED OR A DIFFERENT USE.
UM, OR, UH, SOMETHING THAT SITS IN A SETBACK THAT ISN'T THERE.
SO THOSE ARE GRANTED THROUGH THE ZONING HEARING BOARD, NOT THIS ORGANIZATION.
IT'S, IT'S THE DIFFERENT ORGANIZATION.
EVERY ONE OF THOSE, THE WAIVER AND THE VARIANCES ARE ON A CASE BY CASE BASIS AND ONLY APPLY TO THAT SPECIFIC PARCEL.
SO MY UNDERSTANDING IS THAT THIS IS ALREADY A DONE DEAL.
HE HAS RIGHTS TO BUILD ON HIS PROPERTY.
JUST LIKE EVERYBODY HAS RIGHTS TO BUILD ON THEIR
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PROPERTY.WHAT THAT LOOKS LIKE, WHAT THAT IS HAS NOT BEEN DECIDED OR PROVE OR DISCUSSED OR PRESENTED TO US OR PRESENTED TO US.
IT HAS, WE DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY'RE GONNA DO.
IT'S JUST, IT, IT'S SOME, SOMETHING IS BEING PROPOSED.
MY BIGGEST CONCERN, I'LL SAY IT RIGHT NOW, AND I'LL SAY IT AGAIN WHEN HE DOES COME FORWARD, UH, IS WATER RUNOFF.
UH, I'VE BEEN THROUGH THIS BEFORE IN THIS AREA.
UM, WHEN MR. GILLIAN BUILT OR REBUILT THE OLD MON SCHOOL, HE PUT IN A CATCH BASIN BETWEEN THAT PROPERTY AND THE PRIVATE HOMES THAT ORDER THE PROPERTY.
UM, I DON'T, I DIDN'T SEE THAT IN PLANTS OR THIS NEW DEVELOPMENT.
AND MY CONCERN IS THE MORE CEMENT AND ASPHALT YOU'RE PUTTING IN UPPER AND MIDLOCK PLAYER, THE WORSE THING IS THE PEOPLE LOWER MOD PLAYER.
YOU HAVE, YOU HAVE A VERY VALID CONCERN.
UM, WE DON'T KNOW WHAT WE DON'T KNOW AT THIS POINT IN TERMS OF STORMWATER CONTROL AND ALL OF THAT.
THAT'S VERY EARLY IN THE PROCESS.
THE STEP THEY'RE AT NOW, IF THEY WERE TO GET APPROVAL IS REALLY JUST SORT OF A PROOF OF CONCEPT.
THE NUMBER OF UNITS, THE GENERAL LAYOUT, THE HARD ENGINEERING PART OF IT WHERE HE TELLS US THIS IS HOW BIG MY BASIN HAS TO BE OR WHERE MY BASINS ARE, HOW MY STORMWATER IS CONTROLLED, COMES AT THE PRELIMINARY PLAN STAGE.
THAT'S THE SECOND STAGE OF OUR APPROVAL PROCESS.
THAT'S EITHER WHAT YOU'RE LOOKING AT, WHATEVER PLAN YOU'RE LOOKING AT, THAT'S PROBABLY GONNA CHANGE A HUNDRED TIMES BEFORE IT GETS TO A FINAL.
I WAS LOOKING AT THE PLAN THAT WAS PRESENTED TOMORROW.
YEAH, THAT'S JUST A PRELIMINARY.
HERE'S WHAT I'M LOOKING TO DO.
THEY THEY COULD ACTUALLY MAYBE BUILD, UH, AN OFFICE BUILDING THERE.
ISN'T THAT AN OFFICE BUILDING NOW? WELL, IT, IT, IT IS OLD.
SO, SO THEY COULD SOMEHOW IMPROVE THAT AS AN OFFICE FACILITY.
UH, WHAT, I MEAN, WE'RE REALLY AT THE VERY, VERY EARLY STAGES OF WHAT'S POTENTIALLY GONNA BE BUILT THERE.
AND AS MR. GRACE TALKED, YOU KNOW, WE'VE GOTTA GO THROUGH ALL KINDS OF PRELIMINARY REVIEWS WITH OUR CONSULTANTS, YOU KNOW, ET CETERA, ET CETERA.
UH, IT'S NOT REALLY FROM A PLANNING COMMISSION PERSPECTIVE, YOU KNOW, WE'RE WAY BACK IN THE PROCESS.
THE LOTS HAS TO HAPPEN BEFORE WE GET TO THE ACTUAL DEVELOPMENT OF WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN.
IF IT MAKES YOU FEEL ANY BETTER, I LIVE EVEN LOWER IN MONTCLAIR THAN YOU DO.
CAN I, BUT WHAT THE PRELIMINARY PLANS ARE THAT DOES NOT NEED A VARIANCE OR WAIVER.
WELL, THEY, THEY RIGHT NOW TO MY AND JEFF, THERE ARE NO PRELIMINARY PLANS.
WE DON'T HAVE PRELIMINARY PLANS.
WE DON'T HAVE TENTATIVE PLANS.
I JUST SAY WHATEVER YOU'RE LOOKING AT.
THEY, THEY PRESENTED SOMETHING, THEY PRESENTED A PLAN TO US.
THEY PRESENTED, I THINK, THREE ITERATIONS OF A PLAN TO US.
I THINK, I THINK JEFF MAYBE A CONCEPT RATHER THAN A PLAN.
IT'S AN IDEA OF HOW IT CAN WORK, BUT WE DON'T KNOW IF THEY NEED RELIEF FROM THAT PLAN.
AND THAT'S THE GLOBAL TERM RELIEF FROM THE PLAN IS THE TERM WE USE.
WHETHER THAT'S A WAIVER IN TERMS OF SOMETHING BEING BUILT OR A VARIANCE IN TERMS OF THE DIMENSIONAL REQUIREMENTS.
IF THEY DON'T MEET THE DIMENSIONAL REQUIREMENTS OF THE ZONING ORDINANCE, THEY CAN ASK FOR A VARIANCE.
THEY HAVEN'T PUT ANY OF THAT DOWN ON PAPER.
WE HAVEN'T REVIEWED IT TO SAY WHETHER OR NOT THEY DO NEED THAT YET.
THE BIGGEST QUESTION WE HAVE IS THIS LEASE AND HOW IT AFFECTS THE DEVELOPMENT, THE FUTURE DEVELOPMENT OF THE PROPERTY.
THAT'S WHAT THE LAWYERS ARE KIND OF WORKING ON BEHIND THE SCENES.
IT'S A, THERE'S SOME LEGAL QUESTIONS OUT THERE.
THERE'S SOME DISCUSSIONS GOING ON OF WHAT LEGALLY CAN AND CAN'T BE DONE ON THIS LEASE AND WHAT THE BOARD OF SUPERVISORS IS WILLING TO LET THEM DO.
BUT IS THE LEASE THE OPEN SPACE? THE LEASE IS FOR EVERYTHING.
THE LEASE BASICALLY SAYS THAT THE BUILDING IS ALLOWED TO CONVERT TO A PROFESSIONAL BUSINESS OFFICE USE.
THE ZONING IS IN PLACE OF THE ENTIRE PARCEL FOR PROFESSIONAL BUSINESS OFFICE.
3.65 ACRES HAVE TO BE SET ASIDE AS OPEN SPACE UNDER A 99 YEAR LEASE FOR THE TOWNSHIP WITH AN 11,700 OR 11,007 SQUARE FOOT AREA FOR A PLAYGROUND.
THAT ALL HAS TO BE MAINTAINED BY THE PROPERTY OWNER.
I, I, YOU KNOW, IF YOU NEED TO READ IT, YOU CAN ASK FOR A RIGHT TO KNOW REQUEST.
AND IF YOU HAVEN'T ALREADY SEEN IT, WE CAN GIVE YOU A COPY.
SO THAT'S THE, THAT'S WHAT THEY'RE KIND OF DISCUSSING
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OF WHAT THE LEASE LANGUAGE MEANS.IT'S, THERE'S A LOT OF WHEREFORES AND 3.6 ACRES.
THEY CAN KIND OF FOLLOW THE WAY IT'S ZONED RIGHT NOW, WHICH IS ACCORDING TO THE LEASE, THE 3.65 ACRES HAS TO REMAIN OPEN SPACE.
THERE'S LANGUAGE IN THE LEASE THAT CAN BE BROKEN.
I'M NOT GOING TO INTERPRET THAT FOR YOU OR EXPLAIN THAT BECAUSE I'M GOING TO, I'M GOING TO EXPLAIN IT WRONG.
AND I DON'T WANT TO PUT ZONE 3.6 ACRES IS ZONED WHATEVER IS ZONED PROFESSIONAL BUSINESS OFFICE WITH THE, WHICH ALLOWS FOR THE RE THE RESIDENTIAL USE IN THAT AREA.
KEEP, AS KEVIN STATED, KEEP LOOKING AT THE AJE.
YOU KNOW, WHEN JEFF POSTS THEM USUALLY A WEEK BEFORE.
'CAUSE THAT'S, YOU NEED TO BE HERE FOR ALL THAT.
DO WE HAVE TO PROVE THE MINUTES FROM APRIL 2ND? YEAH, THAT'S WHERE WE'D BE AT NOW.
DID WE GET HER NAME THE SECOND? BETSY EDGAR.
YEAH, NO, I USED TO WORK WITH HER.
BELIEVE ME, I'M NOT THAT GOOD.
I CAN'T EVEN REMEMBER MY OWN NAME MOST OF THE TIME.
UM, SO, UH, IF YOU LOOK AT YOUR, UH, PACKET HERE, UH, OR A PACKET OF STUFF, THE NEXT THING IS THE MINUTES FROM APRIL 2ND.
UM, AND WE NEED TO, UH, REVIEW THAT REAL QUICKLY AND, UH, TAKE A MOTION TO APPROVE THE MINUTES FROM APRIL 2ND.
I MAKE A MOTION TO APPROVE THE PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES FROM APRIL 2ND AND APRIL 16TH, 2025.
SO WE GOT A MOTION TO APPROVE THE MINUTES FROM TWO AND 16TH.
ANYBODY WANNA SECOND THAT? UH, I'LL, I'LL SECOND THAT FOR BOTH OF THOSE, UH, MEETING MINUTES.
AND SO I WAS HEARING THAT I HAVE NO, NO.
WHAT CHANGES AT ALL FAVOR SAY AYE.
SO THAT BRINGS US TO OUR MEET OF OUR AGENDA, WHICH IS THE, UH, MAP THAT WE TALKED ABOUT, ABOUT A MONTH AGO.
WAS THAT ABOUT A MONTH AGO? YES.
UM, AND WE WERE SUPPOSED TO REVIEW THOSE AND KIND OF, YOU KNOW, COME UP WITH THIS FINAL MAP OF OUR, UM, OF OUR, UH, TOWNSHIP HERE.
SO, UH, I THINK THAT'S ON THE BACK.
IT'S ON THE BACK OF EVERYBODY'S PACKET, THE LAST PAGE.
SO JEFF RE RE RE UM, RE UH, UM, INTRODUCE WHAT WE'RE OKAY.
WELL, CAN I MAY JUST MAKE A COMMENT THAT THIS HAS A, MY UNDERSTANDING, JEFF AND HELP ME, IS THAT THIS HAS NOT CHANGED FROM THE LAST ONE WE SAW ON APRIL 16TH.
SO THIS IS THE SAME ONE WE SAW LAST TIME.
THERE WERE SOME QUESTIONS AT, WELL, TO BACK UP REAL QUICK.
THE OFFICIAL MAP IS JUST, IT'S A GUIDING DOCUMENT.
IT'S SORT OF A VISUAL REPRESENTATION OF WHAT THE COMPREHENSIVE PLAN HAS AS ACTION ITEMS, AS RECOMMENDATIONS, AS POLICY, AS THINGS LIKE THAT.
THIS MAP SHOWS A LOT OF OPEN SPACE, A LOT OF TRAILS, YOU KNOW, SOME ROAD CONNECT, SOME ROAD IMPROVEMENTS, THINGS LIKE THAT.
THE IDEA IS TO SORT OF ENCAPSULATE EVERYTHING INTO ONE MAP SO THAT WHEN SOMEONE COMES IN TO LOOK AT THE TOWNSHIP, WHETHER IT'S A DEVELOPER OR ANYTHING ELSE, THEY, THERE'S, THERE'S SOME DOCUMENT THAT'S EASY TO READ.
THE HOPE IS THAT WE CAN RUN, WE CAN GET THIS MOVING IN TERMS OF GETTING IT APPROVED.
I THINK WHERE WE LEFT IT WAS THERE WAS SOME QUESTION ON WHETHER OR NOT WE WANTED TO INCLUDE MORE OPEN SPACE.
UM, IF THERE WERE SOME OTHER PROPERTIES WE WANTED TO IDENTIFY FOR POTENTIAL ACQUISITION, OTHER TRAIL CONNECTIONS, THINGS LIKE THAT THROUGH, UH, THAT'S WHAT THE PLANNING COMMISSION WAS GONNA LOOK AT.
WE WERE SUPPOSED TO COME BACK WITH OUR IDEAS OR YEAH.
WISHLIST, MAYBE THAT'S A BETTER WORD.
OF PROPERTIES THAT WE HAVE RECOGNIZED IN THE TOWNSHIP THAT WE WOULD LIKE TO SEE IF THEY'RE NOT ALREADY UNDER SOME PROGRAM.
UM, IS IT POSSIBLE FOR US TO, UH, TO SECURE THAT PROPERTY IN SOME WAY FOR OPEN SPACE? SO, IN SAYING THAT, HAS ANYBODY GOT ANY SUGGESTIONS, UH, OR RECOMMENDATIONS OR WISHLIST OF PROPERTIES? UM, CAN I ASK A COUPLE QUESTIONS FIRST ON? SURE, OF COURSE.
UM, THAT'S WHAT THIS IS ALL ABOUT.
THIS IS TOTALLY NITPICKY, I APOLOGIZE, BUT I WAS RAISED BY SOMEONE WHO AT ONE POINT WAS ON THE BOARD OF THE AMERICAN SOCIETY OF COPY EDITORS.
BUT THE STREET KEY IS JUST LIKE RANDOMLY HANGING OUT IN THE MIDDLE OF THE MAP.
OH, YOU KNOW THAT, THAT'S BECAUSE I THINK I TURNED OFF THE STREET LAYER.
THEY'RE NUMBERS WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE OTHER MAP.
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SO THIS ISN'T, THIS ISN'T THE FINAL DRAFT.I APPRECIATE YOU POINTING THAT OUT BECAUSE THERE'S PROBABLY A COUPLE OF THEM THAT, THAT ARE LIKE THAT.
'CAUSE THERE'S SUCH DENSE AREAS.
THE THE ROAD NAMES DON'T POP OUT WITH GIS VERY EASILY.
SO MY OTHER QUESTION, WHICH IS MORE SUBSTANTIAL IS, YOU KNOW, I KNOW GENERALLY THIS MAP ALREADY REFLECTS THE DESIRE TO PRESERVE LAND ALONG THE RIVER, RIGHT? AND THEN THAT'S NOT ALREADY PRESERVED IN SOME WAY.
AND THEN THERE ARE, I BELIEVE, ARE SOME ACTIVE TRANSPORTATION TRAIL SYSTEMS THAT ARE IDENTIFIED AS PRIORITY IN THE, THE, THE PRIOR PLAN.
DOES THIS ALSO REFLECT THAT? LIKE, I THINK THERE'S ONE THAT CUTS THROUGH THE MIDDLE OF THE TOWNSHIP AND KIND OF CONNECTS THE, UM, THE TRAILS NOTED ON HERE THAT THE BLUE LINES ARE, THE BLUE DASH LINES ARE FROM OUR CURRENT AND OUR, OUR ADOPTED TRAIL PLAN.
THAT DOES REFLECT WHAT'S IN THE ACTIVE TRANSPORTATION PLAN.
UM, I WILL SAY THAT THEY'RE ON THERE NOW.
WE HAVE A GRANT FROM THE STATE TO DO A, A TRAIL MASTER PLAN THAT RFP SHOULD BE COMING OUT IN THE NEXT TWO OR THREE MONTHS.
UM, WE'VE TALKED INTERNALLY THAT I'VE BEEN BEATING TRAILS AGAINST THE WALL FOR ABOUT EIGHT TO 10 YEARS NOW.
GILMORE'S HELPED OUT BOWMAN WHEN THEY WERE HERE.
WE'VE ALL KIND OF HIT THE WALL ON WHERE TRAILS CAN GO IN AND WHAT WORKS.
SO WE WENT TO OUR GRANT COMPANY AND OUR GRANT CONSULTANT AND SAID, LOOK, WE WANT TO GET A TRAIL GRANT TO DO PLANNING AND WE WANNA DO SOMETHING COMPLETELY OUTSIDE OF THE THREE CONSULTANTS.
WELL, TWO AND A HALF CONSULTANTS, LET'S SAY.
NOW THAT
SO WE ARE LOOKING AT PUTTING THAT RFP OUT AND REDOING THE TRAILS.
THEY NEED TO BE ON THIS MAP AS, AS THEY'RE SHOWN NOW.
'CAUSE THAT'S OUR CURRENTLY ADOPTED TRAIL PLAN PER OUR LAST ADOPTED REC PLAN.
AND, BUT MY GUESS IS THAT THEY WILL CHANGE SOMEWHAT.
AND KEVIN, I AM STILL LOOKING FOR THE 2006 PLAN FOR YOU.
I THOUGHT THE COUNTY WAS GONNA SCAN ME A COPY AND THEY HAVE YET TO DO IT.
I WOULD, I WOULD JUST SAY, YOU KNOW, IF, MAYBE IF YOU COULD SPEAK TO WHAT YOU WOULD WANT THE, IF YOU'RE ALLOWED TO, LIKE WHAT, WHAT WE WOULD WANT THE MA THE NEW UPDATED MASTER PLAN TO DIFFER FROM WHAT'S HERE.
'CAUSE I THINK THAT WOULD INFORM, AT LEAST FOR ME, YOU KNOW, WHICH PROPERTIES WOULD BE, WOULD BE A PRIORITY WOULD BE THAT THEY ALIGN WITH WHERE WE WANT THE, THE TRAIL SYSTEM.
OUR ISSUE WITH THE TRAILS AS THEY'RE SHOWN NOW IS THAT THEY'RE NOT THAT FEASIBLE.
I MEAN, IF YOU LOOK AT THE ONE THAT'S ALONG ONE 13 JEN'S OFFICE DID A STUDY, AND I WON'T SPEAK TO THE FULL DEVELOPMENT OF IT, BUT SHE DID A STUDY OF EVERYTHING BETWEEN BASICALLY BLACKROCK ROAD AND ANDERSON FARM PARK.
AND TO COMPLETE THAT TRAIL WOULD'VE BEEN ACQUIRING A LOT OF, A LOT OF RIGHT OF WAY GOING ON THE ROAD, CROSSING THE ROAD MULTIPLE TIMES.
BUT CONNECTING BLACKROCK PARK TO ANDERSON FARM PARK IS STILL A PRIORITY.
WE NEED SOMEONE ELSE TO LOOK AT IT AND SAY, HOW CAN WE, HOW CAN WE DO THIS? WE'VE THOUGHT ALL WE CAN, AND I'M SURE IF, I GUESS IF WE SAT DOWN, WE COULD PROBABLY THINK OF A DIFFERENT WAY TO DO IT.
BUT SOMETHING THAT'S A LITTLE BIT MORE FEASIBLE.
SOMEBODY, YOU KNOW, WE WANNA GET AN ORGANIZATION THAT'S A LITTLE BIT MORE TRAIL FOCUSED.
JEN'S VERY GOOD AT, JEN'S FIRM IS VERY GOOD AT OPEN SPACE AND TRAILS, BUT WE WANNA LOOK AT, AT A FRESH SET OF EYES TO LOOK AT IT.
SAME THING WITH, UM, THERE'S A TRAIL HERE THAT'S IN THE, THE, THAT RUNS ALONG.
AND WE WOULD LOVE TO GET THAT.
WE'VE BEAT OUR HEAD AGAINST A WALL WITH PENDOT.
I MEAN, I CAN'T TELL YOU THE NUMBER OF CONVERSATIONS I'VE HAD WITH THEM, WHETHER THEY KNOW, THEY, THEY, THEY SAY WE DON'T OWN IT.
AND I'VE TALKED TO THE PERSON THAT SITS AT THIS CHAIR AND SAYS, I DON'T OWN IT.
MY DAD SOLD IT WHEN, WHEN I WAS 15 YEARS OLD.
SO HE KNOWS HE DOESN'T OWN IT.
PENDOT KNOWS THEY DON'T OWN IT.
SO IT'S TRAILS LIKE THAT THAT WE NEED TO FIGURE OUT FOR ME, AND I WON'T SPEAK TO WHAT THE TRAIL PLAN WILL DO, THE OVERRIDING GOAL IS STILL TO CONNECT THE INTERNAL PART OF THE TOWNSHIP TO THE EXTERNAL TRAILS.
TO THE EXTERNAL, TO THE EXTERNAL, TO THE, TO THE REGIONAL TRAILS, WHAT I CALL EXTERNAL TRAILS, THE PERM AND TRAIL AND THE SKER RIVER TRAIL.
'CAUSE I THINK THE, WHICH WOULD BE GREAT, RIGHT? RIGHT.
THE, YOU KNOW, YOU SEE A LOT OF PEOPLE THAT WILL DRIVE FROM THE NEWER DEVELOPMENTS DOWN TO THE CANAL, YOU KNOW, THERE'S NOT REALLY A TON OF PARKING THERE.
AND THEN TAKE THEIR BIKE OFF AND GO ON THE TRAILS.
AND IT'D BE GREAT IF THEY COULD JUST, YOU KNOW, ABSOLUTELY
I, I HAVE A, I HAVE A MESSAGE I NEED TO GET BACK TO HELENE ON, ON WHERE SHE PARKS OVER BY SEI YEAH.
AND THE TRAIL PARKING THEY HAVE THERE.
SO HERE THEN, YOU KNOW, OUR, THE, THIS MAP AS IT CURRENTLY EXISTS REFLECTS THE RIVER AND THEN LARGER, CURRENTLY VACANT
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PARCELS.LIKE THE ONE BY, UM, THE PACKAGING FACTORY GLOBAL.
SO, SO LOOKING AT THIS MAP, JEFF, THE YELLOW IS THE POTENTIALLY OPEN SPACE.
YOU KNOW, IS IT TOO FLIPPANT FOR ME TO SAY THAT I WANT ALL OF IT
AND THAT THAT'S YOUR PRIORITY.
THE, THE CHALLENGE IS THAT WE CAN'T FORCE SOMEONE TO SELL THEIR PROPERTY.
UM, WHAT THIS MAP DOES IS IT LETS US APPROACH THOSE OWNERS TO SAY, HEY, WE WANT TO BUY, WE WANT TO SOMEHOW ACQUIRE OR SOMEHOW KEEP THIS PROPERTY AS OPEN SPACE, WHETHER THAT'S DEVELOPMENT RIGHTS OR BUYING IT OUTRIGHT OR SOME OTHER SORT OF AGREEMENT.
THIS ALLOWS US TO IDENTIFY THOSE PARCELS.
AND FOR YOU AND FOR THE BOARD OF SUPERVISORS TO TELL DIRECT STAFF TO GO OUT AND SAY, ALRIGHT, MAKE CONTACT.
AND IF WE FIND SOMEONE WHO GOES, YEAH, I'M INTERESTED IN DOING IT, TAKING IT TO THE NEXT STEP AND SAYING, WELL, WOULD THAT BE THE PRIORITY IN THE, IN THE YELLOW? YES.
IF YOU MAKE THOSE CALLS OR CONTACT AND PEOPLE SAY, YEAH, I'M INTERESTED, THAT WOULD BE THE PRIORITY.
AND IF SOMEBODY SAYS, I DON'T KNOW WHAT I WANNA DO.
OKAY, WELL, YOU GO DOWN FURTHER ON THE LIST, RIGHT.
MAYBE A YEAR FROM NOW I'LL CALL YOU.
JUST TO MAKE CONTACT WITH A LOT OF THE PEOPLE HERE.
LIKE, THERE'S A PROPERTY OVER BY OUR SIDE OF TOWN ON THE ROYERSFORD SIDE THAT'S OWNED BY MRS. SHEETS.
WE HAD CONTACT A COUPLE YEARS AGO ABOUT SHE WAS INTERESTED IN SELLING.
HELENE SORT OF, YOU KNOW, CONNECTED US.
AND, AND I SAID, LOOK, WE'RE INTERESTED IN BUYING IT, WE'RE INTERESTED IN MOVING FORWARD.
AND SHE KIND OF CAME BACK WITH, UM, I'LL, I'LL THINK ABOUT IT.
AND THAT, AT LEAST MY UNDERSTANDING OF IT, IT MAY NOT HAPPEN TODAY, BUT IF WE PLANT THE SEED NOW, MAYBE IN FIVE YEARS, MAYBE, YOU KNOW, WHEN TOLL BROTHERS KNOCKS ON THE DOOR, THEY'LL GO, HMM, I I'M GONNA SELL THE TOWNSHIP.
YOU KNOW, MAYBE WE CAN, WHAT'S THE PROCESS FOR THAT, JEFF? SO YOU CONTACT THAT PERSON OR PEOPLE OR OWNER OR WHATEVER IT IS, AND YOU SAY, HEY, ARE YOU INTERESTED? AND THEY SAY, YES.
SO HOW DOES IT GET TO A NUMBER? IT'S PROBABLY MORE OF A LEGAL QUESTION, BUT MY UNDERSTANDING OF IT IS THAT AT THE POINT, LET'S SAY WE TOOK MY PROPERTY AND I HAD 10 ACRES AND I SAID, I'M INTERESTED IN SELLING, WE WOULD, THE BOARD WOULD SAY, LOOK, WE'RE INTERESTED IN BUYING, LET'S GET AN APPRAISAL.
THEY WOULD GO OUT AND HAVE IT APPRAISED AT WHATEVER A FAIR MARKET VALUE CAME BACK.
THAT'S THE NUMBER THE TOWNSHIP WOULD OFFER.
NOW, WHETHER OR NOT THAT'S THE OFFER I WOULD LIKE, IT'S SOMETHING DIFFERENT, RIGHT.
THERE'S LEGAL REQUIREMENTS ON WHAT WE'RE ALLOWED TO OFFER VERSUS WHAT WE'RE NOT ALLOWED TO OFFER.
YOU KNOW, IT IT, THERE'S A LOT OF NEGOTIATIONS, JUST LIKE ANY OTHER REAL ESTATE TRANSACTION THAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN IN THERE.
SO YOU ARE THAT, THAT TOWNSHIP IS ALLOWED TO NEGOTIATE.
WE ARE A LITTLE BIT LIMITED BY, UM, WHAT AN APPRAISER GIVES US AS A VALUE.
SO UNFORTUNATELY, UNLIKE, YOU KNOW, IF I WAS BUYING A HOME AND I JUST SAID, I REALLY LIKE THIS HOME, I'M GONNA PAY 20 200,000 OVER WHAT I THINK, WHAT THE, WHAT MY BANK SAYS IT'S WORTH.
AND I HAD THAT MONEY, I COULD JUST DO THAT.
WE CAN'T DO THAT AS A TOWNSHIP.
JEFF
SO THIS IS, YOU KNOW, THE YELLOW IS ALL POTENTIAL.
AND, YOU KNOW, THE CHALLENGE COULD VERY WELL BE WHERE ARE THE PRIORITIES OF ALL THOSE YELLOW SPACES AND WHAT'S THE HIGH VALUE, NOT SO HIGH VALUE.
I MEAN, THAT'S, THAT'S A WHOLE NOTHER DISCUSSION.
SO WHAT'S THAT PROCESS? THAT'S A WHOLE NOTHER PROCESS DISCUSSION.
I MEAN, YOU KNOW, WE COULD GO THROUGH THERE, THERE ARE SOME, THERE ARE SO MANY PROPERTIES HERE.
SO LET'S SAY THERE'S 50 PROPERTIES HERE.
THAT'S 50 PEOPLE YOU GOTTA CONTACT.
HOW DOES THAT HAPPEN? I, I, I REACH OUT TO THEM.
I MEAN, I SEND A FORM LETTER, YOU KNOW, I, I REACH OUT TO THE PEOPLE I KNOW IT, IT, WE CAN MAKE IT A MORE COMPLICATED PROCESS BY GOING BACK AND FORTH OVER THE NEXT TWO OR THREE MONTHS AND SAYING, WELL, THIS PRIORITY, THIS PIECE SHOULD BE A HIGHER PRIORITY THAN THAT PIECE.
AND THIS PIECE WOULD BE A LOWER PRIORITY THAN THAT PIECE.
AND RANKING THEM AND PUTTING THEM IN A LIST, I'M GONNA THROW THEM IN A HOPPER AND I'M GONNA SEND EVERYBODY A LETTER.
WE'LL, WE'LL, WE'LL, I DON'T THINK ANYBODY OF PEOPLE WILL BE ABLE TO UNANIMOUSLY IN ANY, ANY SHAPE ABSOLUTELY.
FORM AGREE ON ANY ONE OR TWO OR THREE.
WHAT'S ONE, TWO, OR THREE? I MEAN, MY BIAS, THAT'S A POSSIBLE PROCESS.
THE ONLY ONE, TWO, OR THREE THAT I WOULD RECOMMEND WOULD BE SOMEBODY IF YOU DO CONTACT ME FROM A LETTER, AN EMAIL, HOWEVER YOU DO IT, AND THEY COME BACK AND SAYS, YEAH, I'M READY TO SELL.
THAT'S, THAT'S HOW I'M, THAT'S HOW I'M APPROACHING AT THIS POINT.
THAT, THAT, THAT SOUNDS LIKE THAT WOULD BE THE NEXT STEP, STEP.
THAT WOULD BE THE GUY I WOULD GO AFTER.
THAT WOULD BE THE NEXT STEP THOUGH.
AFTER JEFF DOES HIS SHOTGUN APPROACH TO SHOTGUN APPROACH.
EVERYBODY, RIGHT? SOMEBODY COMING BACK TO YOU SAYS, YES, I'D LIKE TO SELL THIS PROPERTY, AND I WOULD BE GOING AFTER THAT PERSON.
SO REALLY THERE'S NO INCENTIVE TO REMOVE A PARCEL FROM THIS
[00:30:01]
MAP.SO THAT'S THE QUESTION REALLY FOR US.
THERE'S NO WAY I WANT TO CHANGE WHAT WE'VE GOT HERE.
I WANNA ADD THAT'S WHAT I'M ASKING THOUGH.
SO THE QUESTION THEN REALLY IS, IS THERE ANYTHING THAT'S MISSING? IF THERE'S ANYTHING THAT IS NOT ON THIS MAP, I MEAN, I, WHAT'S HERE IS THE ONLY AVAILABLE OPEN SPACE THAT IS AVAILABLE.
THE YELLOW REPRESENTS ALL OF THE PARCELS IN THE TOWNSHIP THAT ARE VACANT, VACANT MONTGOMERY COUNTY IN THEIR DATABASE.
AND EVERYBODY'S PROPERTY IS LISTED WITH A, WITH A, A USE BY IN THE CODE FROM MONTGOMERY COUNTY.
IF IT, IF I KNOW A PIECE IS UNDERDEVELOPED OR ONLY HAS A SINGLE HOUSE ON THERE, THAT'S A LARGE PIECE I HAVE INCLUDED IN THIS MAP, JUST BY LOOKING AT THESE MAPS FOR DECADES AT THIS POINT.
UM, IF THERE'S OTHER PARCELS THAT YOU WOULD LIKE TO SEE ON THERE, MY GUESS IS THEY'RE PROBABLY ALREADY DEVELOPED.
THAT DOESN'T MEAN THEY'RE UNDERDEVELOPED, THAT DOESN'T MEAN THEY'RE OVERDEVELOPED OR COMPLETELY DEVELOPED TO THEIR HIGHEST AND BEST USE.
THERE ARE PROPERTIES THAT WE CAN APPROACH THE PEOPLE.
AND EVEN WITH A USE ON THERE, IF THAT USE IS, YOU KNOW, NOT A GOOD USE ANYMORE FOR WHATEVER METRIC WE'VE DECIDED THAT IS, AND WE WANT TO CLEAR A LOT, THAT IS SOMETHING FEASIBLE TO DO TOO.
TO THAT, TO THAT POINT, I GUESS THE, THE KIND OF QUESTION IS, YOU KNOW, YOU THINK OF A COUPLE DEVELOPMENTS THAT HAVE COME HERE OR CAME HERE BEFORE I WAS HERE THAT I MAY HAVE HEARD OF, UM, YOU KNOW, THAT WOULD NOT BE CAPTURED IN THIS PROCESS BECAUSE WHAT YOU'RE, WHAT WHAT THOSE ARE OR WERE, ARE FARMS THAT WERE THEN CONVERTED TO THEIR HIGHEST AND BEST USE.
AND SO THAT'S NOT CAPTURED IN HERE.
WELL, YES, I CONSIDERED FARMS, NOT THAT THEY ARE, BUT FARMLAND AND, AND AGRICULTURAL PROPERTIES ARE QUALIFIED AS VACANT PROPERTIES.
SO IF, IF SOMETHING IS CURRENTLY FARMLAND, LIKE YOU'LL LOOK AT THE AREA UP HERE OFF OF SECOND AVENUE, BELBAS UP BEHIND, UM, PARKHOUSE, A LOT OF THOSE PROPERTIES HAVE A SINGLE HOUSE ON THEM ARE FARMED.
I CONSIDER THAT A PROPERTY WORTH BUYING.
IT, IT, IT'S PROPERTIES THAT AREN'T, ARE LARGER 10 OR 12 ACRE PIECES OF PROPERTY THAT HAVE A WAREHOUSE OR SOME OTHER SIGNIFICANT DEVELOPMENT ON THEM, BUT ARE ON A VERY LARGE PIECE BECAUSE THERE'S ECONOMIC VALUE THAT BY PURCHASING OPEN SPACE, WE'RE NOT LIKELY TO OVERCOME.
I MEAN, UNLESS A BUILDING BECOMES VACANT, BECOMES DERELICT AND THINGS LIKE THAT, THEN WE CAN COME IN AT A CERTAIN VALUE WHEN THE TOWNSHIP IS SOMEWHAT LIMITED.
THE OTHER LIMITATION ON ALL OF THIS IS GOING TO BE HOW MUCH MONEY THE TOWNSHIP HAS TO SPEND ON IT.
SO YOU'RE PRETTY CONFIDENT YOU'VE GOT THE, THE, YOU KNOW, FARMS AND THE WHAT ARE PROBABLY MOST LIKELY WOODLOTS, UNDEVELOPED WOODLOTS SORT OF THING THAT YOU MIGHT SEE SCATTERED AROUND? YES.
I, I CAN TELL YOU I HAVE A FEW, UM, OPEN SPACE PIECES, UM, OR HOA PIECES THAT I THINK ARE CRITICAL SO THAT IF SOMETHING WERE TO HAPPEN, THAT A LOT OF THIS IS IF A PROPERTY GOES ON THE MARKET, THE TOWNSHIP WANTS TO BE ABLE TO SAY, LOOK, WE ALREADY MADE THIS A PRIORITY.
SO WHAT, WHAT'S THE CLASSIFICATION FOR ALL THE PROPERTY? I GUESS THAT'S DOWN IN THE OAKS, ALONG THE RIVER, UH, WHAT, YOU KNOW, DOWN, UH, OVER ON THE RIGHT OF THE THING.
UH, YOU SAID IT COULD BE A WAREHOUSE OR SOMETHING ON IT, BUT IF, IF YOU LOOK TO THE LEFT, IF YOU LOOK AT THE MAP TO THE LEFT, THE, THE BLUE PIECE DOWN THERE ALONG THE RIVER'S OWNED BY THE COMMONWEALTH.
THAT'S, I KNOW IT'S HARD TO SEE THE CURSOR ON THIS.
UM, I CAN'T EVEN FIND THE CURSOR, BUT IT'S, YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THE OTHER MAP, THE THE LITTLE ONE.
YEAH, WE HAVE A LITTLE ON THE LITTLE MAP.
THIS PIECE RIGHT HERE, KEVIN, YOUR BIKE IS, SEE IF THEY'RE KEVIN OWNED BY THE COMMONWEALTH.
SEE IT ON THE SCREEN, KEVIN? YEAH.
THAT'S OWNED BY THE COMMONWEALTH.
THIS IS, WHY DOES THE COMMONWEALTH ON THAT? JUST CURIOSITY.
THEY'VE, IT, IT'S A SILT BASIN.
MY GUESS IS THAT THEY WERE GIVEN AT SOME POINT TO WORKING ON EITHER DREDGING THE RIVER OR SOMETHING ELSE.
AND THIS IS WHERE THEY CAME TO DEPOSIT.
THEY TOOK THE PROPERTY AT SOME POINT OR ACQUIRED THE PROPERTY IN SOME MANNER.
AND THIS IS WHERE THEY DEPOSITED THEIR DIRT.
THERE'S ONE UP IN THIS AREA, AND THEN THERE'S ONE HERE.
AGAIN, I THINK THEY'VE BEEN AROUND FOR SO MANY YEARS.
I WOULDN'T EVEN KNOW THE REASON BEHIND THEM.
BUT EVEN THOUGH THEY'RE OWNED BY THE STATE, THEY'RE NOT GONNA BE DEVELOPED.
NO, I, I THINK ONCE, SO IT'S GOOD AS THERE'S, YOU KNOW, WE ALWAYS SAY THAT WITH A GRAIN OF SALT BECAUSE MONTGOMERY COUNTY OWNED PARKHOUSE, SO OH, YEAH.
YOU KNOW, SO
BUT, UM, THE AREA PAST THAT ALONG THE RIVER HERE IS OWNED
[00:35:01]
BY DEV.IT'S OWNED BY INDUSTRIAL COMPANIES.
IT IS INDUSTRIALLY DEVELOPED, ESPECIALLY AS YOU GET MORE TOWARDS THE SORT OF THE, THE, THE CONFLUENCE OF THE PERMA AND THE SCHULE DOWN HERE IN THE CORNER.
NEVER REALIZE HOW MUCH YOUR HANDSHAKES UNTIL YOU TRY TO DO THIS
UM, BUT I THINK ADDING THE PIECE IN THROUGH HERE THAT IS SHERMAN'S NURSERY AND SOME OTHER, UM, PRIVATELY HELD LAND MAY NOT BE A BAD IDEA.
I THINK THAT'S A, A GOOD CATCH TO, TO ADD THAT IT IS UNDERDEVELOPED, IT IS INDUSTRIALLY ZONED, BUT THAT DOESN'T REALLY MEAN MUCH.
SO I THINK THAT'S A GOOD CATCH.
IF YOU'D LIKE ME TO ADD THAT ONE, I'M HAPPY TO.
WELL, AGAIN, IIII, I FEEL LIKE I'M BEING GREEDY OR SELFISH.
WE CAN GET, THERE'S NO REASON NOTHING, TOM PUT EVERYTHING YOU CAN ON A MAP.
YOU PUT EVERYTHING ON THERE AND THEN WHEN YOU GET TO THE STORE, YOU REALIZE YOU CAN'T AFFORD THE CAVIAR.
I MEAN,
THE GUYS GET THE QUESTION IS, IS WHY DO WE STOP? I MEAN, AS, AS WE SAID, WE WANT IT ALL.
SO WELL, ARE THERE, ARE THERE ARE GUESS IF THAT REALLY WERE AVAILABLE.
WHY, WHY IS IT ON HERE ALREADY? I MEAN, AGAIN, THAT I, THAT, THAT'S ONE PROBABLY I JUST MISSED BECAUSE IT'S INDUSTRIALLY ZONE.
SO YOU COULD ADD THAT MM-HMM
I MEAN, IF THAT'S WHAT THE PLANNING COMMISS WANTS TO DO, YOU KNOW.
I I THINK WE, YOU KNOW, LET'S IDENTIFY ALL THAT WE CAN.
SO, SO AT, AT WHAT, AT WHAT POINT DO WE KEEP ADDING HERE AND HOW DO WE DETERMINE TO KEEP ADDING, BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW ALL OF THESE PARCELS UP AT THE VERY NORTHWEST PART OF THE TOWNSHIP.
AND, UM, YOU KNOW, I, AT, AT SOME POINT, I WOULD LIKE TO THINK THAT WE COULD GET 90% OF WHERE WE NEED TO BE, AND WE'LL NEVER GET TO BE A HUNDRED MM-HMM
AND LET'S GET IT APPROVED AND LET'S MOVE IT FORWARD.
UM, SO THAT AT AT LEAST WE'VE GOT A REAL REASONABLY GOOD BLUEPRINT FOR PARCELS THAT, YOU KNOW, IF THEY BECOME AVAILABLE, WE WANT TO, WANT TO GO FORWARD WITH.
I MEAN, YOU KNOW, THAT ONE PARCEL WOULD BE GREAT, BUT SO NOW, YOU KNOW, HOW DO WE PICK AND CHOOSE? YOU KNOW, WHAT I CAN ALSO PUT ON THIS MAP IS, IS THE, I THINK, AM I WRONG HERE, TOM? NO, I THINK I, I THINK WE'RE ALL SAYING THE SAME THING.
I, I, I THINK, I MEAN, I WOULD LIKE TO, I WOULD LIKE TO, TO TO SOMEHOW GET 98, 90 5% THERE AND WE CAN MODIFY THIS IF SOMETHING BECOMES AVAILABLE MM-HMM
YOU KNOW, WE'LL, WE'LL HOPEFULLY WE'LL SNAP IT UP, BUT LET'S, LET'S MOVE FORWARD AS A PLAN AND GET IT APPROVED AS PART OF OUR COMPREHENSIVE PLAN SO THAT EVERYBODY UNDERSTANDS THE OBJECTIVE AND, AND HOW WE WANT TO MOVE FORWARD WITH ALL THIS OPEN SPACE.
'CAUSE THAT, THAT IS THE BIG ISSUE HERE.
AND, AND I THINK GETTING IT ADOPTED SOONER RATHER THAN LATER IS DEFINITELY MY SUGGESTION.
BECAUSE, I MEAN, WITH THE RIGHT OF WAY MAP, I'VE HAD DISCUSSIONS AS OF JUST A COUPLE WEEKS AGO ABOUT A RIGHT OF WAY, AND NOT THAT WE'RE CHANGING IT, BUT THE POTENTIAL DEVELOPER WAS, HE'S LIKE, WELL, I, THIS IS, IT'S RIDICULOUS THAT YOU, THAT YOU NEED THIS MUCH RIGHT OF WAY.
THERE'S NOTHING I CAN DO ABOUT IT.
YOU KNOW, I, I'M, I HAVE WHAT I HAVE, RIGHT? AND I WOULD RATHER HAVE A MAP THAT'S MY BACKUP TO SAY, NO, NO, WE WANT THAT AS OPEN SPACE NOW.
AND SOMETHING THAT'S ENFORCED NOW AS OPPOSED TO GOING BACK TO THE 2008 MAP, WHICH IS DECENT.
IT, IT COVERS A DECENT AMOUNT OF GROUND, BUT IT'S, IT SHOWS ITS AGE.
I THINK WHAT I CAN PUT ON HERE ALSO IS SOMETHING ABOUT THE HOA PROPERTY.
I CAN COLOR THE HOA PROPERTY, WHICH IS DOWN HERE IN THE LOWER MAP.
I CAN PUT THAT ON THE LARGER MAP TO SHOW THAT, YOU KNOW, THAT'S PROPERTY THAT WE DON'T WANT TO EVER SEE DEVELOPED.
THAT, THAT WE PUT SOME NOTES ON THE PLAN TO SAY, EVEN HOA PROPERTY, IF IT EVER DOES SOMEHOW BECOME AVAILABLE, THE TOWNSHIP SHOULD NOT LET THAT DEVELOP IN ANY MANNER.
UM, SAME THING WITH SOME OTHER, LIKE THE GOLF COURSE PROPERTY AND THINGS LIKE THAT.
I WOULD AGREE WITH THAT A HUNDRED PERCENT.
AGAIN, I DON'T THINK ANYBODY'S GONNA DO, THAT'S GOLF COURSE.
TO ME, THAT'S A DONE DEAL, BUT WELL, GOLF COURSES ARE ALWAYS A LITTLE HINKY, MR. ROW.
IT'S, I MEAN, HAVE YOU NOTICED THE TOWN CENTER IN KING OF PRUSSIA? YEAH.
BUT YEAH, THAT I, AND I WORRY, EXCUSE ME, I WORRY ABOUT THAT.
I MEAN, I WORRY WHEN I SEE THAT ACROSS THE STREET HERE, AND I'M
[00:40:01]
SAYING, YOU KNOW, SOME GUY, WHOEVER OWNS THAT, WAKES UP SOME DAY AND SAYS, AH, I'M TIRED OF GOLF BUSINESS.HOW DO WE, HOW DO WE PREVENT THAT? WHAT CAN WE, WHAT MEASURES CAN WE PUT IN PLACE TODAY TO STOP SOMEBODY FROM SAYING, I'M GONNA SELL THIS GOLF COURSE AND LET 'EM BUILD THOUSAND HOMES IN HERE.
THAT'S, THAT'S WHAT WE NEED TO LOOK INTO AND, AND THAT'S WHAT WE NEED TO PUT ON THIS MAP AS A START AND FIGURE OUT FROM THERE HOW WE GET THERE.
WELL, YOU KNOW, 'CAUSE I, I, AND IT'S NOT IN OUR TIMES YET, BUT YOU LOOK AT, UH, YOU KNOW, TURTLE CREEK UP THERE ON OFF, YOU KNOW, SAME THING.
YOU KNOW, THAT MASSIVE GOLF COURSE AND ALL THAT, AND THAT GUY DECIDES SOMEDAY, I DON'T WANNA DO THIS ANYMORE.
NEXT THING YOU KNOW, WE'RE GONNA HAVE A WALMART THERE.
SO HERE'S OUR STEP FORWARD TO NOT BELABOR THIS TOO MUCH MORE.
I WILL PUT ON THIS MAP, I WILL COMBINE THE LOWER MAP AND THE UPPER MAP SO IT SORT OF SHOWS ALL OF THE EXISTING OPEN SPACE AND THE THINGS THAT AREN'T CONTROLLED BY THE TOWNSHIP PUT ON THERE, THE PIECES DOWN ALONG THE RIVER THAT WE TALKED ABOUT.
DO ANOTHER, I CAN HAVE GIS RUN BY LAND, USE BY SIZE, ANYTHING THAT'S VACANT OVER AN ACRE, AND MAKE SURE THAT THAT'S ON THERE.
I MEAN, IT'S A LITTLE SMALL FOR AN ACRE, BUT I CAN, I CAN HAVE THE DO THAT.
SO, BECAUSE IT'S 11 TO 12,000 PIECES OF PROPERTY, SO WE'LL MAKE SURE THAT EVERYTHING GETS ON THERE.
THAT, THAT'S IN YELLOW THAT'S CONSIDERED VACANT OR A SINGLE FAMILY HOUSE.
CAN YOU, IT'S BEEN A WHILE SINCE I'VE USED GIS YEAH.
BUT CAN, CAN YOU ALSO THOUGH FLAG THE SMALL PARCELS THAT ARE NEXT TO VERY LARGE PARCELS THAT WE MIGHT WANT TO PRESERVE? I CAN DO THAT.
SUCH AS, UH, PARKHOUSE, YOU SEE THAT PARK HOUSE UP THERE, THAT LITTLE SQUARE IN THE CORNER, YOU KNOW, WE, WE WANT TO GRAB THAT, THAT, THAT WOULD BE A PRIORITY I THINK, IF YEAH.
FOR ME TO MAKE SURE THAT DOESN'T GET DEVELOPED MM-HMM
UH, BUT IT'S, IT IS, IT IS LABELED AS A YELLOW TO BE PRESERVED.
RIGHT? WELL, IT'S, IT'S A POTENTIAL, MY UNDERSTANDING FROM THE PARKHOUSE ORDEAL THAT WE WENT THROUGH THAT PIECE IS NOT OWNED BY, BY THE PARKHOUSE PEOPLE, BUT, BUT IT'S STILL THERE.
AND, AND IT'S, AND IT COULD BE, I MEAN, THE TOWNSHIP COULD BUY THAT PIECE TODAY IF THEY WANTED TO.
I DON'T KNOW WHETHER THEY'RE WILLING, WELL, I DON'T KNOW.
WILLING TO SELL OR WE, WE TRY, WE'VE TALKED ABOUT IT.
I MEAN, I, I, I'M NOT A, AGAIN, I TYPICALLY DON'T INVOLVE MYSELF WITH NEGOTIATIONS JUST 'CAUSE IT'S A LEGAL MATTER.
BUT THEY, I KNOW THEY'VE HAD DISCUSSIONS.
I KNOW THEY'VE REACHED OUT TO THE OWNER.
I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE, THE, WHERE THE CONVERSATION IS AT THIS POINT.
I HAVEN'T HEARD ANY RUMBLINGS OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT.
UM, I DO KNOW THAT WE HAD THEM, WE, SOMEONE ASKED FOR ZONING DETERMINATION, WHICH IS PART OF WHAT I DO OF, OF IDENTIFYING WHAT A PARCEL ZONING IS, WHAT YOU CAN DO THERE.
WE DUG BACK INTO IT A LITTLE BIT MORE.
THE INSTITUTIONAL OVERLAY DOESN'T EXIST ON THIS PIECE.
SO RIGHT NOW IT IS JUST THE OPEN SPACE CONSERVATION DISTRICT DEVELOPMENT IN THAT DISTRICT IS EXTREMELY DIFFICULT AND VERY LIMITED, UM, IN MY OPINION.
COULD WE BE CHALLENGED ON THAT A LITTLE BIT? PROBABLY.
BUT WE'LL WORRY ABOUT THAT WHEN THE COURT CASE GETS FILED.
IF A COURT GETS FILED, UM, NOT FOR THE INSTITUTIONAL, BUT FOR A RESIDENTIAL USE BECAUSE IT WAS A RESIDENTIAL USE.
THAT'S A LEGAL DISCUSSION THAT, YOU KNOW, WE, WE COULD HAVE SOME OTHER WAY.
UM, BUT IT IS SOMETHING WE'RE STILL LOOKING AT AND STILL TRYING AND, AND TRUST ME, IT WILL COME UP AGAIN IF AND WHEN PARKHOUSE COMES IN FOR THEIR PRELIMINARY PLAN.
BUT AT LEAST THAT, THAT PARCEL IS ALREADY IDENTIFIED, RIGHT? MM-HMM
I'M JUST SAYING I WOULD LIKE TO SEE A PRIORITY BECAUSE I, WE CERTAINLY DON'T WANT ANY MORE BUILDING ON THE PORT COTS AREA.
I MEAN, IN THE GRAND SCHEME OF THINGS.
I MEAN, THERE ARE OTHER, YOU KNOW, I WOULD LIKE TO SEE ALL THE, ALL THE YELLOW ON THE LEFT SIDE.
BUT I, YOU KNOW, I DON'T SEE THIS IS, THIS IS WHY WE CAN A FINANCIAL ISSUE HERE.
THIS IS WHY WE CAN NEVER PRIORITIZE IT.
YOU CAN'T AFFORD TO BUY EVERYTHING.
YOU'LL, YOU'LL SEE AT THE, AT THE CAR SHOW, THERE'S GOING TO BE A, THE OPEN SPACE.
I DON'T KNOW WHAT THEIR OFFICIAL TITLE IS, BUT THERE'S A REFERENDUM THAT THE SUPERVISOR ARE LOOKING TO APPROVE AND THEY'RE GONNA COME OUT AND HAVE SOME DISPLAYS AT THE, AT THE CAR SHOW FOR YOU CAN MEET MY WIFE THERE.
I, WELL, I, I MET YOUR WIFE AT THEIR MEETING AND I GOT AN EMAIL FROM HER TODAY TO TAKE SOME PICTURES FOR HER.
SO, UM, THEY, YOU KNOW, THE TOWNSHIP IS MOVING FORWARD WITH AN OPEN SPACE REFERENDUM TO FUND A LOT OF THIS.
AND I THINK ONCE WE HAVE A MORE CONSISTENT SOURCE OF MONEY THAT ISN'T JUST THE SUPERVISORS GOING, OKAY, WE CAN SET ASIDE FOR THIS SPECIFIC PARCEL AND BEING REACTIONARY RIGHT NOW, WE, WE CAN ONLY BE REACTIONARY TO WHEN A PIECE COMES UP.
I THINK WHEN, IF WE WERE TO, AND I'M NOT POLITICAL MAKING THIS POLITICAL, BUT IF THAT WERE TO PASS, IF YOU DECIDE TO VOTE FOR IT, IT WOULD BE A SOURCE OF MONEY THAT WE COULD BE MORE PROACTIVE.
WELL, I, I'D LIKE TO SEE THE, IF YOU WOULD ADD THE, THE, UH, ITEMS HERE THAT WE DISCUSSED, I'D LIKE TO SEE THAT OUR, AT OUR NEXT MEETING, THAT WE LOOK AT A QUOTE FINAL YES.
[00:45:01]
BECAUSE WE COULD, WE COULD DEBATE THIS OPEN SPACE ISSUE FOREVER.AND SO I'D, I'D LIKE TO BRING THIS TO A CONCLUSION.
WELL, AND I DON'T DISAGREE WITH THAT.
UM, BUT HE, HE, I DON'T, I STILL DON'T HAVE A GOOD FEEL IF AFTER WE DO ALL THIS IDENTIFICATION AND WE, WE SAY, OKAY, HERE'S THE MAP, WHAT THE PROCESS IS AFTER THAT.
IT, IT REALLY IS, IT REALLY IS.
AS, AS JERRY PUT IT, A SHOTGUN.
I'M GONNA SEND A LETTER OUT TO EVERY PARCEL WE IDENTIFY.
I HAVE THEIR ADDRESSES AND NAMES, AT LEAST WHAT I THINK IS CURRENT FROM THE MONTGOMERY COUNTY DATABASE.
AND WE'LL SEE WHAT HAPPENS FROM THERE.
I KNOW THAT THERE'S A COUPLE PARCELS IN THE TOWNSHIP OF PEOPLE THAT HAVE APPROACHED THE SUPERVISORS AND YOU KNOW, WE'VE SORT OF SAID, YES, WE'RE STILL INTERESTED, BUT LET'S PUT THIS ON HOLD FOR JUST A LITTLE BIT SO THAT WE CAN GET SOME OTHER THINGS IN PLACE.
SO THOSE THINGS WILL MOVE FORWARD.
AND I UNDERSTAND, I UNDERSTAND THAT PROCESS.
BUT LET'S SAY YOU SENT OUT THESE 50 LETTERS OR A HUNDRED, WHATEVER IT TURNS OUT TO BE, AND YOU GET 10% OF THOSE COME BACK TO YOU WE'RE INTERESTED, WHO GOES OUT AND KNOCKS ON THESE PEOPLE DOORS AND SAY, I'LL GIVE YOU A $50,000.
IT, IT REALLY BECOMES, IT REALLY BECOMES, WE, WE ASK THEM TO COME IN FOR A MEETING AND WE SIT DOWN AND MAYBE THE CHAIRMAN OR THE SUPERVISORS, CHAIRPERSON, WHOEVER THAT MAY BE, SITS DOWN WITH THEM.
WE PUT STAFF WILL PUT TOGETHER A PACKAGE SAYING X PARCELS WANT TO, TO, TO SELL.
THEY'RE, LOOK, THEY'RE INTERESTED IN SELLING.
ARE YOU WILLING TO PUT A, UH, WILLING TO SPEND THE MONEY TO PUT SOME, GET SOME APPRAISALS DONE? ONCE THOSE APPRAISALS ARE DONE, THE SUPERVISORS WILL LOOK AT IT AND THEY'LL SAY, WELL, THERE'S ONE THAT APPRAISED FOR $60 MILLION.
THERE'S ONE THAT APPRAISED FOR $200.
THAT'S WHAT, THEN IT BECOMES A SUPERVISOR PRIORITY ISSUE.
THEY'RE THE ONES WITH A PURSE, SPRINGS, PURSE STRINGS.
THEY WILL TELL US WHICH ONES TO WORK FOR NEXT.
AND I, AND I ONLY THINK WHAT WE'RE DOING HERE IS, AND MY, HELP ME IF I'M WRONG, IS, IS WE'RE TRYING TO APPROVE THIS MAP, TOWNSHIP MAP, WHICH SHOWS ALL OF THE, IN THIS CASE, ALL OF THE OPEN SPACE PARCELS, AND WE'VE AGREED TO ADD SOME, BUT WE'RE APPROVING THE MAP.
WE'RE NOT APPROVING THE PROCESS OR THE CRITERIA OR SIGNING PRIORITIES, RESPONSIBILITIES.
AND WE'RE APPROVING THE MAP THAT SAYS THIS.
I WANT, I, I DON WANT IT TO BE JUST APPROVING A MAP.
WELL, I KNOW, BUT I DON'T KNOW HOW WE'RE, I DON'T HOW, BUT WHAT YOU CAN DO AS RESIDENTS AND WHAT YOU CAN DO AS PLANNING COMMISSION MEMBERS IS YOU CAN PROD THE BOARD THROUGH WHETHER IT'S A LIAISON.
AND I REALIZE WE'VE HAD THE DISCUSSION WHERE THAT IS AND IT'S, WE'LL GET THERE, UM, WHETHER IT'S THROUGH THAT PROCESS OR COMING TO THE BOARD MEETINGS OR HAVING A CONVERSATION WITH A SUPERVISOR THAT, YOU KNOW, TO MOVE THAT PROCESS FORWARD.
WELL, IS THAT A PRESENTATION WE CAN MAKE AS A PLANNING COMMISSION TO THE SUPERVISOR? YES.
I, I, AND YOU AND I TALKED ABOUT, WE TALKED ABOUT THAT.
HAVING YOU COME AND, AND TALK TO THE SUPERVISORS.
AND WE HAVEN'T NAILED DOWN THAT DATE YET, BUT I THINK HAVING THIS MAP AND THE RIGHT OF WAY MAP IN CONJUNCTION OH, NO QUESTION.
HAVING THEM READY TO GO AND HAVING YOU STAND UP HERE AND SAY, THAT'S THE POINT.
THAT'S THE POINT, IS WE NEED TO HAVE THE MAP AND WE NEED TO APPROVE THE MAP AT THAT POINT.
AND THE RIGHT OF WAY, WE NEED TO APPROVE.
AND THEN WE NEED TO NOW WORK THROUGH THE, THROUGH THE LOGISTICS OF EVERYTHING THAT'S BEHIND THAT.
SO THAT WE CAN ESTABLISH WE'RE ALL ON THE, SO WE'RE THE SAME PAGE.
I AGREE WITH I PRESENTING THAT.
SO I WILL, I WILL BRING THE, WHAT I HOPE TO BE, THE FINAL DRAFT OF THE MAP TO THE NEXT, TO THE SECOND MEETING IN JUNE.
WELL, WE'LL GET TO THE AGENDA, WELL TO THE, TO THE MEETING WE AGREE ON.
WE'LL GET TO THE DISCUSSION OF FUTURE AGENDA ITEMS AT THE END.
AND NOW I'M GONNA HAND IT OVER TO BRIAN.
NOW WE'RE TALKING ABOUT TRAFFIC SAFETY, IS THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT ON YOUR, BEFORE WE LEAVE THIS SUBJECT, UM, THIS IS A LENGTHY PROCESS TO GO THROUGH MM-HMM
ALL OF WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT.
SO DOES IT MAKE SENSE IF THERE'S ANY PARCELS ON HERE THAT ARE, WE SAY, EXTREMELY VALUABLE THAT WE BUY A RIGHT OF FIRST REFUSAL.
THAT'S ONE OF OUR TOOLS IN OUR TOOLBOX.
IT ALWAYS SOUNDS THEY'RE CHEESY WHEN PEOPLE SAY, BUT WE CAN SAY NO, BUT RIGHT.
IT IT, THAT'S ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE WOULD APPROACH SOMEONE WITH.
IF SOMEONE, IF, IF I WROTE A LETTER TO SOMEBODY AND THEY SAID, WELL, I'M, I'M NOT INTERESTED IN SELLING NOW, BUT IT'S SOMETHING I MIGHT CONSIDER.
MAYBE THE SUPERVISORS WOULD DECIDE TO, YOU KNOW, KICK 'EM A LITTLE BIT OF MONEY AND SAY, LOOK, WE'RE GONNA BUY A WRITER FIRST REFUSAL.
GIVES THEM SOME POCKET MONEY AND YEAH.
I MEAN, THAT'S A GOOD PLAY, BOB.
WE, ANY OPTION WE CAN COME UP WITH ANY METHOD WE CAN COME UP WITH THAT THAT'S LEGAL AND DOESN'T GET ME OR ANY OF US THROWN IN JAIL.
I AM HAPPY TO TRY TO USE OR A CONSERVATION, CONSERVATION EASEMENT TOO.
CONSERVATION EASEMENT, WHATEVER WE CAN DO.
[00:50:01]
HAPPY TO USE IT.WHATEVER, YOU KNOW, WE WANT TO USE EVERYTHING WE CAN TO, TO MAKE SURE THAT, THAT WE SAVE SOME OF THESE PROPERTIES.
AND MY, MY FEAR IS, TO YOUR POINT, MR. PETERS, IS THAT, YOU KNOW, AND I KNOW THIS PROCESS, WE GONNA DO, WE GONNA DO THE MAP WE'RE GONNA DO, BUT, BUT TOMORROW SOMEBODY COULD WALK IN HERE AND SAY, HEY, HERE'S A PLAN.
I WANT TO DEVELOP THIS PIECE OF PROPERTY, THEN WE'RE SCREWED.
THEN I UNDER, I UNDERSTAND WE'RE DONE.
I HAD A, I HAD A PROPERTY OWNER COME IN, IT'S BEEN ABOUT TWO MONTHS NOW.
AND THEY BROUGHT A PLAN IN AND THEY SHOWED US THE PLAN.
WE TALKED ABOUT THE LOGISTICS, WE TALKED ABOUT THEIR PATH FORWARD, WHICH IS TYPICAL FOR A MEETING FOR A PROPERTY THAT I DID NOT KNOW WAS ON THE MARKET OR HAD NOT COME TO ANYTHING.
AND I SAID DURING THE MEETING, I SAID, LOOK, THE TOWNSHIP MAY BE VERY INTERESTED IN BUYING THIS AND NOT GOING THROUGH THIS PROCESS.
IS THAT SOMETHING YOU'D BE WILLING TO ENTERTAIN? AND THEY SAID YES, BECAUSE THEY, MAYBE THEY DIDN'T KNOW THAT THAT WAS A OPTION BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T KNOW.
AND I DON'T, SINCE THAT MEETING, WE HAVE NOT HAD ANY DISCUSSIONS.
AND IT'S A FAMILY TRUST, SO I'M SURE THERE'S A LOT OF DUCKS.
THEY HAVE TO GET INTO A ROW FOR THAT TO HAPPEN.
I'M NOT SAYING IT'S GONNA GET THERE, BUT SOON AFTER THAT I, I, I SAID AT THIS MEETING, LOOK, IF, IF THE TOWNSHIP IS INTERESTED IN BUYING THIS PIECE OF PROPERTY, WE'VE HAD DISCUSSIONS WITH THE SUPERVISORS, ARE YOU WILLING TO, TO, TO ENTER INTO THOSE DISCUSSIONS AT SOME POINT? AND THEY SAID, YES, THEY ARE.
I WROTE TO THE SUPERVISORS, EXPLAINED TO THEM, MY CONVERSATION SAID, IF THE SUPERVISORS ARE WILLING TO MOVE FORWARD, IS THIS SOMETHING THAT, THAT THE SUPERVISORS ARE WILLING TO AGREE TO? AND THEY SAID YES.
AND THERE WERE SOME OTHER INTERNAL DISCUSSIONS THAT WE DON'T NEED TO TALK ABOUT OUT IN PUBLIC.
BUT THERE IS A PROCESS IN PLACE FOR THAT TO HAPPEN.
AND IT, IT KIND OF RUNS THROUGH ME OF, YES, SOMEONE MAY COME IN THERE TOMORROW WITH A, WITH A DEVELOPMENT, BUT IT DOESN'T UNTIL THEY GET A CHECK FROM THE DEVELOPER, IT DOESN'T PRECLUDE US FROM DOING THAT.
AND AND THE POINT TOO IS, IS I JUST WANNA MAKE THE POINT THAT, THAT THE PLAN THAT'S IN THE COMPREHENSIVE PLAN IS 10 YEARS OLD.
AND WE NEED TO PUT A STAKE IN THE GROUND THAT SAYS, AT THIS POINT IN TIME, THIS IS TO THE BEST OF OUR ABILITY.
WHAT WE THINK IS, IS THE RIGHT MAP FOR THE TOWNSHIP.
NOW, GOLLY, I MEAN, IS IT AGAIN, A HUNDRED PERCENT TO THE BEST? IT COULD BE.
I MEAN, THERE'S PROBABLY A LITTLE PIECE HERE AND A PIECE THERE THAT, THAT WE NEED TO ADD.
BUT WE COULD, WE COULD DO THIS.
WE COULD KEEP DOING THIS FOR, I, I THINK WE NEED TO MAKE THE CHANGES WE'VE DISCUSSED, PUT A STAKE IN THE GROUND AND SAY THIS IS, WE APPROVE IT AND WE CAN ALWAYS CHANGE IT.
AND WE ALWAYS CAN GO BACK TO THE SUPERVISORS AND SAY, WE WANT TO, YOU KNOW, MODIFY IT.
IF, IF, IF WE, WE FEEL THAT'S APPROPRIATE.
I, I MEAN, AGAIN, I THINK WE'VE GOT A, I THINK EVERYBODY'S GONNA AGREE WITH EACH.
I THINK WE'RE ALL IN AGREEMENT.
WE GOTTA TAKE THAT FIRST BABY STEP.
AND THEN LET'S JUST HOPE THAT WE COULD, YOU KNOW, ACTUALLY MAKE SOMETHING HAPPEN.
WE WILL, WE WILL HAVE, WE WILL HAVE DONE THE BEST WE COULD DO AT THIS POINT IN TIME.
I THINK THIS IS THE MOST SIGNIFICANT THING THAT WE COULD DO RIGHT NOW.
I THINK IT'S A VERY IMPORTANT THING.
AND THEN, UH, YOU KNOW, I AGREE WITH YOU, BOB, THAT IT'S ALRIGHT.
SO LET'S GET TO, UH, BRIAN HERE.
HE'S, UH, HE PROBABLY WANTS TO GO HOME,
SO, UM, HE'S HEARD ENOUGH ABOUT ALL THIS STUFF.
SO, UM, WHY DON'T YOU INTRODUCE YOURSELF AND THEN GIVE US SOME REAL QUICK BACKGROUND.
UH, I HAVE BEEN WORKING IN TRAFFIC FOR THE LAST 29 YEARS.
WELL, I, YOU WORKING IN TRAFFIC COMPANY AND YOU'RE TAKING A DANGER.
UM, I HAVE A BACHELOR OF SCIENCE AND A MASTER OF SCIENCE FROM PENN STATE.
UM, I AM A PROFESSIONAL ENGINEER AND A PROFESSIONAL TRAFFIC OPERATIONS ENGINEER.
UM, I STARTED MY CAREER IN THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA.
I WORKED FOR A PERIOD OF TIME OUT IN THE HARRISBURG AREA, AND FOR THE LAST 22 YEARS I'VE BEEN WORKING IN THE LEHIGH VALLEY AREA.
UM, I RECENTLY CHANGED, UM, EMPLOYERS, UH, BACK IN OCTOBER AND, UH, HAVE NOW HAVE THE, THE OPPORTUNITY TO WORK WITH GILMORE IN A MUCH LARGER, UH, GEOGRAPHIC AREA.
UM, AND SO UPPER PROVIDENCE IS, IS ONE OF THE ONES ON, ON MY LIST.
UM, GIVEN THE FACT THAT THE SUPERVISORS DECIDED TO, TO ADD GILMORE TO THE TRAFFIC ROLE IN ADDITION TO OUR, OUR GENERAL TOWNSHIP ENGINEER
[00:55:01]
ROLE.SO WITH THAT BACKGROUND, UM, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I WAS, WAS GIVEN EARLY ON FOR, FOR YOU ALL, UM, IS PART OF YOUR COMPREHENSIVE PLAN WAS LOOKING AT SAFETY AND YOUR HIGH INJURY NETWORK.
THAT THAT WAS PART OF APPENDIX C OF YOUR, YOUR COMPREHENSIVE PLAN.
AND SO THERE WERE FIVE CORRIDORS THAT WERE IDENTIFIED IN THAT CO IN THAT SECTION, UM, THOSE BEING BLACKROCK, UH, SECTION OF BLACKROCK ROAD, EGYPT ROAD, A PORTION OF ROUTE 29 RIDGE PIKE AND TOWNSHIP LINE ROAD.
AND SO WHAT WE'VE DONE IS WE HAVE TAKEN THOSE FIVE CORRIDORS, UH, WE'VE SHOWN THEM ON A MAP HERE FOR YOU, YOU KNOW, WHERE THEY ARE.
I, I WAS STILL LEARNING WHERE ALL OF THIS IS.
UM, AND THEN WE PULLED THE MOST RECENT, AND WHEN I SAY RECENT, THE LAST FIVE YEARS OF CRASH DATA, SO THAT'S JANUARY OF 2020 THROUGH DECEMBER OF 2024.
AND WHAT WE FOUND, UM, IS THAT IN THOSE FIVE CRASH AREAS, UH, FIVE QUARTER AREAS, THERE WERE A TOTAL OF 381 CRASHES IDENTIFIED.
AND, AND HOW MANY TIME PERIOD? IN FIVE YEARS.
ON THE, HOW DO YOU DEFINE A CRASH? SO A, A CRASH IS ANYTHING, UH, THAT INVOLVES AN INCIDENT REPORT.
SO IT COULD BE PROPERTY DAMAGE ONLY SOMEBODY HIT A DEER, SOMEBODY RAN OFF THE ROAD.
UH, IT COULD BE, YOU KNOW, OBVIOUSLY MULTIPLE VEHICLE, A REAR END, UM, YOU KNOW, AN AN ANGLE CRASH WHERE SOMEBODY PULLS OUT AND GETS HIT.
UM, IT, IT INCLUDES VARYING SEVERITY.
UM, YOU KNOW, SOMETHING WHERE IT'S JUST A DISABLED VEHICLE ALL THE WAY UP TO, UH, IN THOSE FIVE CORRIDORS THERE WERE FOUR FATAL CRASHES.
WHAT CAN YOU OR HAVE YOU DELINEATED, UM, YOU KNOW, WHICH OF THESE ARE AUTO ON AUTO, AUTO ON PROPERTY, AUTO ON PEDESTRIAN, BICYCLIST, ET CETERA.
IN THIS MAP, WE HAVE NOT GOTTEN GOTTEN TO THAT, THAT LEVEL OF DETAIL.
I, I HAVE THAT LEVEL OF DETAIL, UM, THAT I, I COULD CERTAINLY GO THROUGH AND, AND, UM, SHOW WHERE THE PEDESTRIAN, THE BICYCLE, THE PROPERTY DAMAGE, AND THEN THE, THE AUTO ON AUTO CRASHES ARE, I HAVE NOT DONE THAT YET.
UH, YEAH, I'D BE INTERESTED TO SEE THAT.
EXPLAIN YOUR LEGEND HERE THOUGH.
SO, UM, WHAT YOU'RE LOOKING AT WITHIN EACH CORRIDOR, UM, WHERE YOU SEE THE, THE SKULL AND CROSSBONES THAT WOULD REPRESENT A FATAL CRASH.
SO, UM, FOUR OUT OF THE FIVE HAD ONE FATAL CRASH EACH, UH, THE ONLY SECTION THAT DID NOT HAVE A FATAL CRASH, UM, WAS BLACKROCK ROAD.
UM, PENDO THEN CLASSIFIES A SERIOUS INJURY CRASH, OF WHICH THERE WERE 13.
OUT OF THOSE 381, THOSE ARE IDENTIFIED WHERE YOU SEE THE, THE CROSS BAND-AIDS MM-HMM
THOSE ARE, THOSE ARE WHAT PENDOT CLASSIFIED AS A SERIOUS INJURY.
AND THEN THERE ARE MINOR INJURIES.
THERE ARE POSSIBLE INJURIES, THERE ARE UNKNOWN INJURIES, AND THEN THERE ARE PROPERTY DAMAGE ONLY.
UM, I DIDN'T TRY AND, AND IDENTIFY ALL OF THOSE IN SPECIFIC, OTHERWISE WE WOULD'VE HAD DOTS ALL OVER THE PLACE.
AND THEN THE NUMBERS THAT YOU SEE, JEFF, COULD YOU BRING THIS UP A LITTLE BIT AS WELL? THANK YOU.
THE NUMBERS YOU SEE IN CIRCLES ARE WHAT WE CALL CLUSTERS OF CRASHES.
SO WHERE YOU SEE A NUMBER LIKE, UM, HERE ON, ON BLACKROCK ROAD AT, UH, ROUTE 29, YOU SEE A 26.
SO THERE WERE 26 CRASHES AT THAT INTERSECTION IN THE FIVE YEAR PERIOD.
SO YOU'RE LOOKING AT AN AVERAGE OF OVER FIVE CRASHES A YEAR, AND THE BANDAIDS THERE INDICATE THAT ONE OF THEM WAS A SERIOUS INJURY ACCIDENT.
UM, SO WHAT, WHAT DOES THIS MEAN? WELL, UH, FIRST THING I LOOKED AT WAS WHAT, WHAT WERE THE CIRCUMSTANCES OF YOUR FOUR FATAL CRASHES? UM, AND WHILE FATAL CRASHES OBVIOUSLY ARE NEVER A GOOD THING, UM, ALL FOUR OF THEM INVOLVED RANDOM INCIDENTS.
IT WAS SOMEBODY THAT WAS, UM, INTOXICATED AND RAN OFF THE ROAD.
IT, UH, YOU KNOW, IT'S A ONE-OFF LOCATION.
[01:00:01]
THERE WAS NO OTHER COMMONALITIES TO IT.UH, ONE OF THEM, THE, UH, MOTORIST ACTUALLY HAD SOME KIND OF A MEDICAL INCIDENT THAT PRECIPITATED THE CRASH.
SO WAS IT REALLY A CRASH THAT RESULTED IN A FATALITY OR WAS IT THE MEDICAL INCIDENT THAT RESULTED IN A CRASH? UM, WHAT WE DON'T HAVE ACCESS TO UNLESS WE PULL THEM, ARE THE ALL OF THE INDIVIDUAL SPECIFIC ACCIDENT REPORTS.
SO I DIDN'T GET TO THAT LEVEL OF DETAIL AND PULL FROM THE POLICE DEPARTMENT TO KNOW EXACTLY ALL OF THOSE DETAILS.
SO, SO WHEN, WHEN YOU HAVE A-A-A-A-A, A SITUATION LIKE THAT WHERE SOMEBODY'S, UH, IMPAIRED OR HAS MEDICAL THING, THAT'S CERTAINLY NOT THE ROAD'S FAULT.
SO, YEAH, I I MEAN I IT'S NOTHING WE COULD DO TO THE ROAD BECAUSE THAT'S NOTHING ROAD DID GO.
AND SO WHILE, WHILE FA FATAL CRASHES ARE, ARE NOT GOOD, THE GOOD NEWS IS THAT NONE OF THE FATAL CRASHES ON THESE FOUR CORRIDORS.
WOULD I SEE ANYTHING THAT WOULD SUGGEST THAT THERE'S AN ENGINEERING SOLUTION RIGHT.
ITS NOT SOMETHING THAT HAPPENED AT AN INTERSECTION WHERE, YOU KNOW, WE SHOULD PUT A TRAFFIC LIGHT THERE OR, OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT.
IT WAS ALL, THAT'S, THAT'S, THAT'S THE POINT, RIGHT? YEAH.
SO, SO ESSENTIALLY WHILE THEY'RE THERE, I KIND OF, OKAY, LET'S, WE'VE GOTTEN THROUGH THOSE FOUR.
NOW YOU START LOOKING AT THE 13 SERIOUS CRASHES.
SOME OF THOSE HAPPEN AT LOCATIONS OF INTERSECTIONS.
UM, WE CAN GET INTO A LOT MORE DETAIL ABOUT THOSE 13 CRASHES.
UM, WHAT CONCERNS ME MORE ARE LOCATIONS, SO ON BLACKROCK ROAD, YOU'LL NOTICE THAT THERE'S A LOCATION THAT HAS THOSE TWO BAND-AIDS TOGETHER, TWO SERIOUS CRASHES.
ONE OF THEM WAS A HEAD ON CRASH, THE SECOND ONE INVOLVED A MOTORCYCLE.
IS IT THE HILL? IT'S LIKE A HORRIBLE CORNER.
IT'S A HORRIBLE CORNER GOING DOWN INTO THE YEP.
BRIDGE ROAD WHERE THE ROAD KIND CLOSE RIGHT THERE.
SO THOSE ARE THE KIND OF LOCATIONS THAT, THAT I WOULD SUGGEST WANT TO BE THE NEXT LEVEL OF FOCUS TO SEE WHAT ARE THE, WHAT ARE SOME THINGS THAT WE COULD DO.
UM, I LOOK AT AN INTERSECTION, UM, WELL, CAN I INTERRUPT YOU A SECOND? YEAH, GO RIGHT AHEAD.
WHEN YOU SAID OLYMPIC, IS THAT, IS THAT WHERE THAT NEW BRIDGE IS BEING CONSTRUCTED ON BLACKROCK? YEAH, THAT'S RIGHT.
WOULDN'T THAT IN, IN AND OF ITSELF IMPROVE THAT WHOLE POTENTIALLY HELP WITH THAT ISSUE? IT, IT, IT, IT CERTAINLY MAY.
AND THOSE ARE THE TYPES OF THINGS THAT WE ALSO NEED TO BE LOOKING AT IS, YOU KNOW, THIS IS A FIVE YEAR HISTORY.
AND SO WHAT HAS HAPPENED OR IS HAPPENING, UH, YOU KNOW, FOR EXAMPLE, THE ROUTE 29 CORRIDOR, WELL, I'M JUST, I'M JUST MENTIONING THAT, THAT THAT APPEARS AS THOUGH THAT'S ALREADY BEING DEALT WITH, THAT THAT'S, THAT'S ONE THAT, THAT IS BEING DEALT WITH NOW.
UM, ON BLACKROCK ROAD, FOR EXAMPLE, YOU LOOK AT THE 18 WITH THE SERIOUS INJURY THAT HAPPENED AT TROUTMAN.
UM, IN LOOKING AT THAT, IS THAT A CANDIDATE THAT'S A LOT OF DIFFERENT ANGLE CRASHES, PEOPLE PULLING OUT AND GETTING HIT BY A VEHICLE ON BLACKROCK ROAD.
IS THAT AN INTERSECTION THAT WE WOULD WANNA LOOK AT FOR POTENTIAL EITHER SIGNALIZATION OR SOME TYPE OF WARNING DEVICE TO HELP FOLKS THAT ARE ON, UH, TROUTMAN TRYING TO GET OUT? YOU KNOW, WE HAD A SERIOUS CRASH THERE.
UH, YOU HAD FIVE MINOR INJURY CRASHES THERE OUT OF THE TOTAL OF 18.
THE, THE OTHER PIECE THAT I, I JUST WANT TO SHARE WHAT REALLY QUICK I, GO AHEAD.
I KNOW YOU MENTIONED THE, THE BIT ABOUT THE FATALITIES TOO.
IT WOULD ALSO BE TO THE CHAIRMAN'S POINT I SAID TO SAY THE CHAIRMAN, NO, TOM, TOM TO TOM'S POINT, OLD HABITS, UM, THE, YOU KNOW, LIKE THE DUIS, THE MEDICAL EVENTS, DID YOU ALSO TAKE THOSE OUT OF THE SERIOUS INJURIES TOO? BECAUSE YOU CAN'T ALWAYS ENGINEER YOUR WAY OUT OF A DUI.
THOSE IN THE SERIOUS CRASHES, UM, I, I CAN GO BACK AND JUST DOUBLE CHECK THAT, BUT I DIDN'T NOTICE THEM LIKE I DID WITH THE, THE FATAL, THE TWO OF THE, THE, THE FOUR FATALS.
UM, JUST ONE OTHER POINT THAT TO, TO BE MADE, UM, WE HAVE THE, THE DATA BY
[01:05:01]
YEAR.AND SO A CONCERNING ELEMENT IS THAT THE NUMBER OF CRASHES HAS GONE UP EACH OF THE LAST FIVE YEARS.
2020 IN THE TRAFFIC ENGINEERING WORLD IS SOMEWHAT OF AN ANOMALY BECAUSE OF COVID.
AND SO THINGS WERE DRASTICALLY DIFFERENT.
BUT THAT THERE WERE 63 CRASHES IN THESE FIVE CORRIDORS IN 20 20 68, IN 20 21, 72 IN 22, 85 IN 23, AND IN 2024 YOU HIT 93.
WELL, THAT'S A DIRECT RESULT OF WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HERE TONIGHT.
AS AS DEVELOPMENT INCREASES, YOU'RE, YOU'RE GONNA HAVE MORE CARS IN THE ROAD.
SO WE'RE TRYING TO GET THAT OPEN SPACE SO WE DON'T HAVE ANY MORE DEVELOPMENT.
BUT, UM, BUT YEAH, THAT'S, I WOULD, I WOULD ASSUME THAT INCREASE IS A DIRECT RESULT OF, UH, OF INCREASED, UH, UH, CONSTRUCTION, BOTH RESIDENTIAL AND UH, UH, BUSINESS.
I THINK IT'S ALSO, IT'S ALSO A NATIONWIDE TRAIN, IF I'M NOT MISTAKEN.
OH, PROBABLY IS BECAUSE OF, IN LARGE PART, YOU KNOW, LIKE THERE ARE MANY DAYS WHERE I DRIVE ONLY ONE MILE TO MY KIDS' DAYCARE 'CAUSE I WORK FROM HOME.
BUT NOT EVERYBODY HAS THAT LUXURY STILL, BUT IT INCREASED CERTAINLY OVER THE FIVE YEAR PERIOD AS WELL.
VEHICLE MILES TRAVELED IS CERTAINLY BACK ON THE RISE SINCE 2020.
UM, AS, AS COMPANIES GO BACK TO A, A MANDATORY IN OFFICE, UM, I MEAN THAT'S THE ONLY THING IT COULD BE, RIGHT BRIAN? I MEAN, 'CAUSE THE ROAD HASN'T CHANGED, BUT RIGHT.
SO IT HAS TO BE THE INCREASED NUMBER OF CARS ON THAT ROAD.
I I I THINK THERE'S SOMETHING TO BE SAID FOR THE INCREASE IN DISTRACTED DRIVING FROM PEOPLE USING IPHONES.
I MEAN, I CAN'T TELL YOU, YOU, YOU GUYS ALL SEE IT.
I'M HOPING HOW MANY TIMES YOU'RE DOWN THE, YOU'RE DOWN THE, YOU'RE DRIVING DOWN THE ROAD AND YOU SEE SOMEBODY THEY'RE DRIVING AND THEY'RE, THEY GOT THEIR PHONE UP HERE, BEEN THERE, YOU KNOW, SO YEAH.
AS THERE ARE MORE AND MORE PEOPLE AND THERE'S MORE AND MORE OF THAT, IT'S, IT'S NOT NECESSARILY THE ROAD'S FAULT, BUT I, I THINK YOU, YOU COULD LOOK AT THE, THE DEVELOPMENT OF THIS, THE DEVELOPMENT OF THIS TOWNSHIP, OBVIOUSLY FROM WHERE WE WERE IN 1990 TO 2010.
EVERY CENSUS GROUP, EVERY CENSUS DATA BLOCK, YOU CAN OBVIOUSLY SEE THAT AS WE'VE GROWN IN POPULATION, THE ACCIDENTS ARE GONNA GROW.
IT'S, IT'S JUST A MORE DENSITY POPULATION.
I THINK THAT'S A VERY LOGICAL ARGUMENT.
YOU KNOW, REASON, RATIONALE BEHIND ALL OF THIS.
I, I THINK WHERE WE SHOULD SORT OF GO FROM HERE IS HAVE BRANDON IDENTIFY THOSE FOCUS AREAS LIKE HOPWOOD AND OR YEAH.
HOPWOOD AND, AND AND BLACKROCK ROAD, TROUTMAN AND BLACKROCK ROAD.
THAT INTERSECTION THERE THAT'S UNSIGNED, THAT DOESN'T HAVE A LOT OF IMPROVEMENTS, THAT HAS NOT HAD ANYTHING SIGNIFICANT DONE TO IT IN THE PAST 10 OR 15 YEARS AND SAY, ALRIGHT, LET'S, ARE THESE THE INTERSECTIONS WE WANNA LOOK AT? WELL, HOPWOODS A GREAT ONE.
I MEAN, EVERYBODY KNOWS THAT'S A, THAT'S A TERRIBLE INTERSECTION.
IT'S PROBABLY THE WORST I THINK PROBABLY IN THE, IN THE TOWNSHIP.
RIGHT? UH, WELL, BUT, BUT, BUT WITH THE HOPWOOD 29, YOU KNOW, WITH ALL THE CONSTRUCTION DEVELOPMENT THAT'S GOING ON.
IS THAT IRISH ISSUES THE DEVELOPERS? WELL, WELL, WELL, I'M SORRY.
WELL, WE'RE, WE GOT ROAD IMPROVEMENTS.
I, I GUESS I MEANT TROUTMAN AND BLACKROCK ROAD, NOT HOPWOOD, THAT'S HOLLOW ROAD.
I SAID HOPWOOD AND I MISSPOKE.
HOPWOOD IS JUST ALWAYS AN ISSUE.
SO HOLLOW ROAD, TROUTMAN ROAD AND BLACKROCK ROAD, THAT INTERSECTION THERE.
THAT'S ON THE OPPOSITE SIDE OF GLAXO FROM WHERE WE ARE, WE ARE OKAY.
INTERSECTIONS LIKE THAT, THAT ARE, THAT HAVEN'T REALLY BEEN ADDRESSED IN THE PAST 10 OR 15 YEARS.
WE KNOW WE'RE GONNA ADDRESS HOPWOOD YYS IN 29.
I MEAN, THAT'S UNDER, THAT WAS MY POINT IS YEAH.
WIDENING SIGNALIZATION THAT'S ALREADY APPARENTLY IN THE PLANS APPROVED, UH, WHATEVER.
I I THINK THE NEXT LEVEL OF THIS DISCUSSION SHOULD BE WHERE ARE THOSE AREAS THAT, AGAIN, AS AN OUTSIDER LOOKING INTO IT, WHICH I THINK IS A EXTREMELY VALUABLE ASSET AT THIS POINT.
'CAUSE I THINK SOMETIMES WE KIND OF GET OUR BLINDERS ON ABOUT THINGS IS HAVE THEM HAVE BRIAN LOOK AT WHERE CAN WE LOOK AT NEW IMPROVEMENTS AND, AND THINGS THAT WE HAVEN'T THOUGHT OF BEFORE OR AREAS THAT WE NEED TO IMPROVE BASED ON A MAP LIKE THIS.
I, I, I THINK WE'RE ALL IN AGREEMENT WITH THAT.
I DIDN'T WANNA SHORTCUT WHAT YOU WERE, WHAT ELSE YOU WERE GONNA SAY, BUT NO, NO.
AND, AND, AND THAT'S, THAT'S REALLY WHERE I WAS WANTING TO, TO GET SOME FEEDBACK IS, YOU KNOW, I DIDN'T WANT TO TAKE THIS TO THE TOO FAR, UM, BEFORE WE HAD HAD THIS OPPORTUNITY FOR A DISCUSSION AND, AND MAKE SURE THAT I'M ON THE SAME PAGE AS YOU ARE.
UM, BUT I I, I WOULD LIKE THEN TO GO BACK AND BE ABLE TO LOOK AT WHERE THESE CLUSTERS ARE, UM, YOU KNOW, GET SOME BETTER ENGINEERING BEHIND IT AND SAY, OKAY, WE, WE REALLY HAVE
[01:10:01]
A PROBLEM WITH A PARTICULAR SET OF MOVEMENTS, UH, AT, AT AN INTERSECTION, FOR EXAMPLE.AND IF THERE IS A SIGNAL THERE, WHAT COULD WE DO TO, TO IMPROVE THAT? IF THERE'S NOT CONTROL THERE, WHAT COULD WE DO? WHAT CAN WE LOOK AT AND, AND COME BACK WITH A LIST OF, OF, OF RECOMMENDATIONS THEN TO, TO LOOK AT MOVING FORWARD, UM, YOU KNOW, BA BASED ON NUMBERS AND, AND BASED ON, YOU KNOW, WHAT, WHAT CAN BE DONE.
AND DISCOUNTING AS, AS YOU SAID MR. PETERS, YOU KNOW, THOSE AREAS WHERE YOU'VE GOT DEVELOPMENT THAT'S IMMINENT, THAT'S GOING TO BE ALREADY LOOKING AT AN AREA, LET THE DEVELOPER TAKE CARE OF THOSE PIECES.
UM, YOU KNOW, IF THEY'RE ALREADY DOING FRONTAGE IMPROVEMENTS, IF THEY'RE ALREADY DOING, EXCUSE ME, UM, YOU KNOW, ROADWAY IMPROVEMENTS, SIGNALIZATION, THOSE TYPES OF THINGS.
LET THEM HANDLE THAT AND BE ABLE TO FOCUS ON, ON THE AREAS THAT ARE, ARE CURRENTLY NOT BEING ADDRESSED.
I DON'T THINK ANY OF US WOULD DISAGREE WITH EXACTLY WHAT YOU'RE RECOMMENDING.
I MEAN, WE REALLY WANNA LOOK AT ALL OF THOSE AREAS THAT, THAT HAVE, HAVE ISSUES DEMONSTRATED BY THE, THE DATA.
AND MAKE RECOMMENDATIONS PLEASE AND GIVE US YOUR EXPERT OPINION AS TO WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE TO, TO IMPROVE, UH, SITUATIONS SO THAT WE, AND, AND, AND THOSE IMPROVEMENTS.
BRIAN, DOES IT HAVE TO INCLUDE TRAFFIC SIGNALS? I MEAN, I KNOW I'M TALKING ON THE OTHER SIDE OF MY MOUTH 'CAUSE I WANT THE SAFETY, BUT I DON'T WANT ANY MORE TRAFFIC SIGNALS EITHER.
I MEAN, THEY COULD BE TURN LANES.
YOU KNOW, WELL SAY YOU'RE GONNA GIVE US OPTIONS OTHER THAN THE TRAFFIC SIGNAL ROUNDABOUTS EVERYWHERE.
IT COULD BE STOP ROUNDABOUTS EVERYWHERE.
WELL, IT COULD BE, COULD BE STOP SIGNS, YOU KNOW, WHO KNOWS.
THE FIRST ANSWER IS NOT PUT IN A TRAFFIC SIGNAL.
THAT, THAT'S NOT THE FIRST ANSWER.
UM, IT MAY BE THE RECOMMENDATION, THE ULTIMATE ANSWER.
BUT THERE ARE ALL KINDS OF OPPORTUNITIES.
IF YOU'VE GOT A TWO LANE ROAD, I'M SAYING THESE ARE OTHER OPTIONS.
WELL, HERE'S A SIMPLE THAT IF YOU GO OUT OF OUR DRIVEWAY RIGHT HERE MM-HMM
YOU'RE DOWN AND TURN LEFT ON 29, GO TO GET ON 4 22.
BUT THE, THE, THE LIGHT HASN'T WORKED FOR ABOUT A YEAR.
WELL ASK, ASK CHERYL IN, IN THE TOWNSHIP OFFICE.
WE HAVE A MONTHLY, WE HAVE A, A PLANNING CONSULTANT OR WE HAVE A CONSULTANT MEETING WITH ALL THE CONSULTANTS AND BRIAN WENT TO HIS FIRST ONE JUST LAST WEEK.
CHERYL DIDN'T HAVE AN OPINION ABOUT THAT TURN LANE AT ALL.
THERE'S A SYSTEM, THERE'S A FIBER OPTIC SYSTEM AND IT IS CALLED ADAPTIVE.
IT'S A COMPUTER SYSTEM THAT RUNS THE WHOLE CORRIDOR OF 29.
I REMEMBER WHEN WE TALKED ABOUT IT, IT'S NEVER WORKED.
WE KNOW IT'S NEVER WORKED AND THERE'S CERTAIN FINANCIAL REQUIREMENTS AND THINGS LIKE THAT.
SO THAT'S SOMETHING THAT WE ARE AGAIN LOOKING AT AND I THINK HE'LL TALK ABOUT WITH, WITH PART OF THIS PROCESS TOO.
WELL, CAN I NOMINATE AN INTERSECTION,
YOU WANT A SECOND ON THAT THOUGH?
IT'S GOT A, A MINOR COUPLE OF EVENTS THERE, BUT I HAVE A PERSONAL INTEREST IN THAT ONE.
SORRY, THAT'S PROBABLY INTERPERSONAL.
IT'S NOTHING WRONG WITH PERSONAL.
NO, THAT'S, THAT'S HELL A PLACE TO TRY AND TURN LEFT OUT OF.
I MEAN YEAH, YOU CAN'T SEE WHAT'S COMING UP THE HILL.
AND, UH, I WORRY ABOUT MY KIDS DRIVING THE INTERSECTION EVERY DAY, YOU KNOW, SO ANYWAY.
WE'LL LOOK FORWARD TO WHAT YOUR NEXT STEPS ARE.
UM, ALL RIGHT, LET'S KEEP, IS THAT IT FOR OUR, UH, THAT'S IT FOR OUR AGENDA.
I JUST WANT TO GIVE, JEN'S BEEN SITTING HERE VERY QUIETLY AND SHE, YOU KNOW, AN OPPORTUNITY FOR HER TO SPEAK OR GIVE US ANY UPDATES OR WHAT DO YOU WANNA TALK ABOUT? WELL, WHAT'S YOUR ROLE BETWEEN YOU AND BRIAN NOW THAT YOU'RE THE SAME COMPANY? IS THERE A ROLE THAT YOU BOTH ARE WORKING FOR THE TAP? I MEAN, WHAT, WHAT, IS THERE ANY ROLE THERE THAT IS DIFFERENT? NO, OUR, OUR DIVISION OF LABOR IS GONNA BE THE SAME AS IT AS IT WAS PREVIOUSLY.
UM, THERE'LL BE MORE COORDINATION, I WOULD SAY IN LAND DEVELOPMENT REVIEWS, BECAUSE WE'RE GONNA TAKE YOUR ORDINANCE AND WE'RE GONNA COLOR CODE MY SECTION AND COLOR CODE BRIAN'S SECTION.
AND SO YOU'LL SEE LESS REPEAT COMMENTS.
YOU KNOW, YOU'LL HAVE ONE CONTINUOUS LETTER.
I, I HAD ISSUES WITH THAT LONGER.
YEAH, I WAS GONNA SAY IT'S GONNA, YEAH.
EVEN THOUGH IT'S ONE LETTER, IT'S GONNA BE A LONGER LETTER.
BUT WE'RE GONNA STILL CONSIDER, JEN, YOU'RE THE SENIOR HERE.
FROM MY STANDPOINT, JEN IS MY POINT OF CONTACT.
I MEAN, I OBVIOUSLY WILL EMAIL BRIAN DIRECTLY.
[01:15:01]
HE'S GOT MY CELL NUMBER AND STUFF LIKE THAT.BUT JEN IS OUR MAIN POINT OF CONTACT WITH GILMORE ASSOCIATES.
SO, BUT AS FAR AS THE WORK DIFFERENCES, THERE'S NO CHANGE.
NO, THERE'S, WELL, THERE'S NO CHANGE FOR ME BECAUSE WHEN I GET ASKED A TRAFFIC QUESTION INSTEAD OF FORWARDING IT TO BOWMAN, I NOW FORWARD IT TO RIGHT.
YEAH, BUT I MEAN, YOU'RE NOT OKAY.
I APPRECIATE YOUR PATIENCE AND, UH, AND TO ANSWER THE QUESTION THAT CAME FROM THE AUDIENCE ABOUT STORMWATER, JEN IS LOOKING AT THAT ALL THE TIME WHEN THESE PLANS COME IN.
THAT'S, THAT'S ONE OF HER JOBS.
THANK YOU FOR THROWING JEN UNDER THE BUCKET
AND WE, AND WE WELCOME BRIAN TO THE TEAM.
SO, UM, LET'S TALK ABOUT, UM, UH, FUTURE AGENDA ITEMS, JEFF.
UH, JUNE 4TH, WE HAVE MENNONITE ROAD.
UM, WE'VE BEEN THROUGH THE PROCESS WITH MENNONITE ROAD, THE 4 25 MENNONITE ROAD.
UM, THEY'VE COME BACK WITH A NEW TENTATIVE LAND DEVELOPMENT PLAN THAT INCORPORATES THE USE OF OUR TRANSFER OF DEVELOPMENT RIGHTS ORDINANCE.
THEY'RE TRANSFERRING DEVELOPMENT RIGHTS FROM A PROPERTY OFF OF SECOND AVENUE ONTO THIS PIECE.
SO YOU'RE GONNA SEE MORE UNITS ON THIS PIECE, BUT IT'S A NET SORT OF, IT'S ANOTHER PIECE BECOMES UNDEVELOPED AT THAT POINT AND WON'T EVER DEVELOP.
THEY'RE SELLING THOSE, THE ABILITY TO PUT A HOUSE ON IT TO THIS PIECE.
IT'S A LITTLE MORE DENSE IN ONE AREA, LESS DENSE, AND NO DEVELOPMENT IN ANOTHER AREA.
WE'LL GET INTO THAT DISCUSSION WITH THE APPLICANT AND HOW THAT PROCESS SORT OF WORKS ON JUNE 4TH, UM, JUNE 18TH, I HAD OFFICIAL MAP, FINAL DRAFT BEING OPTIMISTIC WHEN I WAS MAKING THIS UP TODAY.
UM, NOTHING, NOTHING ELSE ON JUNE 4TH.
AGAIN, WE CAN, I, I DIDN'T WANT TO SPEAK FOR BRIAN AND I DIDN'T KNOW WHERE THAT CONVERSATION WAS GONNA GO.
SO WE CAN PUT ON JUNE 4TH, NO, NOTHING ELSE ON JUNE 4TH.
UNLESS SOMETHING JUMPS OUT AT THIS POINT.
I, BUT LOOKING AT, AT THE AGENDA WHILE BRIAN WAS SPEAKING, THERE'S NOTHING THAT'S SO PENDING THAT'S HAPPENING IN THE NEXT TWO WEEKS THAT I FEEL THEY NEED TO BE ON AN AGENDA.
JUNE 18TH WOULD BE OFFICIAL MAP.
AND IF BRIAN FEELS, WE DON'T HAVE TO MAKE THE DECISION TONIGHT, IF BRIAN FEELS COMFORTABLE COMING BACK ON JUNE 18TH, WITHIN SORT OF THE NEXT STEP OF INFORMATION, WE CAN HAVE THAT CONVERSATION.
BRIAN KNOWS HE'S NOT COMFORTABLE WITH THAT, ONLY BECAUSE I WILL BE IN MINNESOTA ON JUNE 18TH.
THEN WE'LL, WE'LL HAVE THE OFFICIAL MAP DRAFT AND I'LL PROBABLY HAVE SOME OTHER COMPREHENSIVE PLAN DISCUSSION ITEMS ON THERE.
RIDGE PIKE I KNOW IS HANGING OUT THERE.
I WAS GONNA SAY THE, THE RIDGE PIKE ZONING IS STILL YEAH, I'LL TAKE THAT TO THE NEXT LEVEL BY JUNE 18TH.
UM, THE BIGGEST QUESTION I HAVE IS JULY 2ND LAST YEAR.
I THINK WE CANCELED THE PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING THAT WEEK.
IT IS TWO DAYS BEFORE ON, ON THE WEDNESDAY VERSUS THE FRIDAY.
IF THE PLANNING COMMISSION FEELS THEY'RE NOT GONNA HAVE A QUORUM OR FEELS THAT THEY WANNA CANCEL THAT MEETING, THEY CERTAINLY CAN.
THAT'S WITHIN THEIR DISCRETION.
I WOULD MAKE A RECOMMENDATION THAT WE CANCEL THAT MEETING.
I WAS, I WAS WHAT I WAS GONNA ASK YOU, IS THERE SOMETHING IN, IS THERE SOMETHING, YOU KNOW, GOING TO BE ON THE AGENDA REALLY IMPORTANT? WELL, WHAT WILL HAPPEN IS ON THE JULY 16TH MEETING NOW, WE WILL HAVE PROBABLY THE HIGH MULTI-FAMILY DEVELOPMENT.
WE, THAT SECOND MEETING OF THE MONTH WON'T BE FOR COMPREHENSIVE PLAN AT THAT POINT.
SO AS LONG WE WILL NEED TO, AS LONG, AS LONG AS WE'RE GOING REVIEW SOME, WE YEAH.
SOME SIGNIFICANT ITEMS. LET'S FIND I AGREE.
WE WILL NEED TO HAVE LAND DEVELOPMENT ON THERE.
AND I KNOW THAT'S NOT OUR TYPICAL METHOD, BUT THAT'S, THAT'S WHAT WE WILL, THAT'S, YEAH.
I MEAN, KEVIN'S ALREADY SAID HE'S GONNA BE AWAY.
I HAVEN'T FINALIZED MY, BUT THAT'S A, THAT'S A TOUGH WEEK.
IT IS A TOUGH WEEK AND THAT'S WHY I'M PUTTING IT OUT THERE NOW.
WE NEED TO MAKE A MOTION TO THAT.
ALRIGHT, LET'S MAKE, I HAVE A MOTION TO, UH, TO CANCEL THE JULY TWO MEETING.
UM, AND, UH, BECAUSE OF THE HOLIDAY WEEK, I'LL, UH, I'LL TAKE A MOTION FOR THAT.
DO I HAVE A SECOND? I'LL SECOND IT.
SO THAT MEETING, WE'LL GET PUBLICIZED AS CANCELED TOMORROW AND, UH, WE WILL WORK OUT THE DETAILS FOR JUNE 14TH OR JULY 14TH, EXCUSE ME, ON WHAT'S ON THAT AGENDA.
PROBABLY BY THE JUNE 4TH MEETING.
I'LL HAVE A BETTER SENSE OF THAT.
THEN WE HAVE THE ENVIRONMENTAL ADVISORY COUNCIL MEETING ON JULY 16TH.
JEFF, UM, I KNOW YOU WEREN'T AT THE MEETING.
I COULD MAKE, COULDN'T MAKE IT EITHER.
'CAUSE THEY CHANGED THE DATES AND I, YEAH, I COULDN'T MAKE IT EITHER, BUT, BUT DO YOU HAVE ANY UPDATE ON THAT TO FILL THIS TEAM IN ON THE BIRD HOUSE? PEOPLE
THEY, THEY ARE MOVING FORWARD WITH IT.
I THINK THE PARK AND REC DEPARTMENT, PARK AND REC BOARD IS TAKING OVER A LITTLE BIT MORE OF A LEAD ON IT.
UM, THEN, THEN WE ARE, THERE'S SOME DISCUSSIONS ABOUT, I MEAN, OBVIOUSLY THE, THE
[01:20:01]
EAC WILL STILL BE INVOLVED, BUT I THINK IT'S, IT'S BECOMING A LITTLE BIT MORE OF A PARK AND REC INITIATIVE, UM, BECAUSE THAT'S WHERE A LOT, A LOT OF THE BIRD HOUSES AND, AND THINGS WOULD GO.SO THEY'RE MOVING FORWARD WITH IT.
WE'LL, OUR, WE WILL HAVE A DISCUSSION ABOUT IT ON JULY 16TH.
SO THAT, UM, THAT, UH, REALLY, UH, KIND OF CLEANS US UP.
UM, I'LL TAKE A MOTION TO A JOURNALIST.
EVERYBODY WAS TO STAY AND BRIAN CAN GIVE US MORE INFORMATION ON TRAFFIC.
I'LL MAKE, I'LL MAKE THAT MOTION.
ALL IN FAVOR? UH, CAN OR
AND THERE'S REALLY GOOD STUFF.