[00:00:04]
ANYBODY[CALL TO ORDER]
ELSE? LORI HIGGINS IS JOINING US VIRTUALLY.AND, UH, BILL CASPER WILL NOT BE HERE, BUT WE DO HAVE A QUORUM.
SO, AND I'M, IT'S SEVEN O'CLOCK, SO I'M GONNA CALL THE, UH, REORGANIZATION MEETING OF THE MUNICIPAL AUTHORITY TO ORDER.
UM, THIS ISN'T ON THE AGENDA, BUT WE USUALLY DO THE PLEDGE.
SO I WAS GONNA ASK US TO JOIN US IN THE PLEDGE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE TO THE FLAG OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, AND TO THE REPUBLIC FOR WHICH IT STANDS ONE NATION UNDER GOD IN THIS WITH LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL.
UM, JUST WANTED, UH, TO ACKNOWLEDGE, UM, BILL CASPER WILL NOT BE HERE, UH, THIS EVENING.
UM, BUT WE DO HAVE, UH, A NEW MEMBER, UH, ELISA, UH, WOULD YOU LIKE TO INTRODUCE YOUR, INTRODUCE YOURSELF, ELISA SIDOR? SURE.
I'M A NEW MEMBER, AND, UH, SHE'S, UH, UH, TAKING THE PLACE OF JAMIE PARKER WHO, UM, UH, JAMIE PARKER, WHO, UH, IS NOW A MEMBER OF THE ZONING HEARING BOARD.
UM, WE HAVE LORI HIGGINS, UH, WHO'S JOINING US VIRTUALLY, WHO, UM, UH, BROKE HER FOOT.
SO SHE'S, UH, JOINING US VIRTUALLY.
AND I'LL JUST, UH, GO AROUND, INTRODUCE OURSELVES, PLEASE.
UH, JOE RENAN, A TOWNSHIP SOLICITOR, AND ALSO AUTHORITY SOLICITOR TO ACKNOWLEDGE KEN HUGHES, MUNICIPAL AUTHORITY MEMBER, ELISA SIDOR, BOARD MEMBER.
GILMORE ASSOCIATES TOWNSHIP ENGINEER.
I'M THE ADMINISTRATIVE ASSISTANT FOR THE PUBLIC WORKS DEPARTMENT.
[1. Election of chair]
AND I'M GONNA MOVE RIGHT INTO THE ELECTION OF CHAIR.DO I HAVE NOMINATIONS FOR THE ELECTION OF CHAIR FOR 2025? I'D LIKE TO NOMINATE KEN.
I GOT A NOMINATION FOR KEN HUGHES.
ANYBODY SECOND? ANY, ANY OTHER NOMINATIONS? ANYBODY LIKE TO SECOND THAT PLEASE? I CAN SECOND THAT.
UH, LORI, UH, DID YOU VOTE? UH, WE'RE VOTING FOR CHAIR.
DO YOU, UH, UH, VOTE YES FOR KEN, OR I'LL VOTE YES.
ELECTION AND CHAIR NOMINATION.
THERE'S LIKE A FIVE SECOND DELAY.
SHE'S LISTENING TO THE LIVE, UH, VERSION.
BEFORE WE MOVE ON, I WOULD JUST LIKE TO, UH, UH, RECOGNIZE LAURIE HIGGINS AND WELCOME TO THE AUTHORITY, LAURIE.
I KNOW YOU HAVE A HISTORY WITH THE TOWNSHIP AND, UH, HAVING ANOTHER OTHER, UH, POSITIONS AND SO FORTH, BUT WE WELCOME YOU INTO THE MUNICIPAL AUTHORITY AT THIS TIME.
OKAY, SO THE FIRST THING ON OUR AGENDA, YOU GOTTA DO YOUR ENTERTAINMENT FOR VICE CHAIR NOW THAT YOU
OH, THAT'S RIGHT, THAT'S RIGHT.
I WAS THINKING TIM ALREADY DID IT.
[2. Election of vice-chair]
A, UH, ELECTION FOR THE VICE CHAIR, AND, UM, I WILL TAKE ANY NOMINATIONS FOR VICE CHAIR OF THE AUTHORITY.BEFORE WE MOVE ON, I WOULD JUST LIKE, THERE'S A DELAY.
WOULD ANYBODY LIKE TO, UM, NOMINATE SOMEONE FOR VICE CHAIR OF THE AUTHORITY? HI, I WILL NOMINATE, UH, JOHN MCGUIGAN.
HAVE A, UH, THANK YOU FOR THE, FOR THAT.
UH, ALL IN FAVOR, PLEASE SAY AYE.
ALL OPPOSED? ANY ABSTENTIONS? I GUESS THERE WERE NO OTHER NOMINATIONS.
[3. February 6, 2025 Municipal Authority Reorganization and Regular Meeting Agenda]
NEXT ITEM ON THE AGENDA IS TO ACTUALLY APPROVE THE AGENDA FOR TONIGHT'S MEETING, WHICH WE ALL HAVE IN FRONT OF US.UM, ANY DISCUSSION ON THAT? I'LL JUST POINT OUT AS A, AS A POINT OF INTEREST FOR THE MEMBERS OF THE AUTHORITY VOTING FOR THE AGENDA.
THE, UH, THE SUNSHINE LAW CHANGED A COUPLE TO 2022.
UH, WE NOW HAVE TO PUBLISH THE AGENDA AHEAD, TWO, TWO DAYS AHEAD.
AND WE CANNOT ADD ANYTHING TO THE AGENDA AFTER THAT, UH, UNLESS IT'S AN EMERGENCY.
UM, BUT, BUT YOU COULD THEORETICALLY TAKE SOMETHING OFF OF THE AGENDA.
SO WHEN YOU'RE BEING ASKED TO VOTE ON THE AGENDA, THEORETICALLY
[00:05:01]
IT COULD BE TO REMOVE SOMETHING.AYE, INTEREST FOR THE MEMBERS OF THE ABOVE
AYE, ALICIA, AYE, UH, ANY, I GUESS THERE'S NO ABSTENTIONS AND NO, NO NOS.
UH, WE ALSO HAVE THE NEXT ITEM ON THE AGENDA IS PUBLIC COMMENTS.
AND IT DOESN'T SEEM LIKE WE HAVE TOO MANY PUBLIC HERE WHO MIGHT WANT TO COMMENT.
SO WE'LL, UH, RECOGNIZE THAT WE CONSIDERED THAT AND WE ARE MOVING ON.
[4. Remembering UPT Public Works Director Tom Broadbelt]
ON THE AGENDA IS, UH, REMEMBRANCE, REMEMBERING OF PROVIDENCE TOWNSHIP PUBLIC WORKS DIRECTOR, TOM BROAD BELT.UM, I, I, I DON'T KNOW IF EVERYBODY KNOWS THIS, TOM HAS BEEN HERE FOR ABOUT 10, UH, I'VE KNOWN HIM FOR 10 YEARS.
HE JUST RECENTLY IN THE PAST, I THINK IT'S THE PAST TWO, TWO, UH, MEETINGS.
HE JUST CELEBRATED HIS 30, UH, HIS, UH, 30 YEARS WITH UPPER PROVIDENCE TOWNSHIP AND WE'RE STILL PROCESSING HIS, UH, DEATH.
AND I KNOW HE WAS A GOOD, HE WAS A GOOD, UH, REGULAR ATTENDEE HERE.
UM, WITH THE, UH, WITH THE AUTHORITY, I TOLD, I WAS JOKING WITH, UH, WITH MIKE.
I SAID, USUALLY I WOULD HAVE LIKE FIVE OR SIX ITEMS THAT TOM WOULD SAY WE SHOULD TALK ABOUT THIS, THIS, THIS.
I DIDN'T HAVE TOM, SO I JUST KEPT IT GENERIC FOR, UH, UH, FOR PUBLIC, UH, FOR, UH, VARIOUS PROJECT UPDATES.
AND I JUST WANNA ELABOR, I DON'T KNOW, UM, UH, THE TOWNSHIP'S GONNA HAVE A, UH, KIND OF A, UH, REMEMBRANCE FOR HIM TOMORROW JUST FOR THE EMPLOYEES AND ANY CONSULTANTS WHO ARE AROUND, UH, BETWEEN ONE AND FOUR TOMORROW AT THE, UM, PJ WILLA HANDS.
SO, UM, JUST WANTED TO MAKE THAT, MAKE THAT ANNOUNCEMENT AND, OKAY.
YES, I WAS VERY, UH, SADDENED TO LEARN OF HIS PASSING.
AND, UH, I'VE KNOWN HIM FOR ALL THE YEARS THAT I'VE BEEN ON THE AUTHORITY, I THINK.
AND HE'S, HE'S BEEN A GREAT HELP TO US.
HE'S SUCH A KIND INDIVIDUAL AND, UM, VERY KNOWLEDGEABLE AND, AND, UH, HELPFUL TO EVERYBODY.
AND I KNOW THE TOWNSHIP WILL REALLY, REALLY MISS HIM.
SO WOULD ANYBODY ELSE LIKE TO ADD ANYTHING? I AGREE.
I COULDN'T HAVE SAID IT BETTER.
I FEEL THE SAME WAY ABOUT HIM.
I WAS IN A MEETING WITH HIM THE DAY HE DIED OR THAT AFTERNOON, AND THEN THAT NIGHT HE DIED.
IT JUST SEEMS SO, AND HE SEEMED FINE AND IT WAS JUST LIKE EVERYBODY ALWAYS HAS ABOUT THINGS LIKE THAT.
AND THEN YOU FIND OUT, GOT A CALL EARLY NEXT MORNING.
ANYWAY, RIGHT NOW, JUST FOR THE RECORD, UH, TOM, UH, DON KELLY IS OUR ACTING PUBLIC WORKS DIRECTOR.
HE'S BEEN BUSY WITH THE STORM, SO I GAVE HIM AN EX, UH, HE WAS EXCUSED FROM ATTENDING TO.
SO, UM, HE WILL BE HARD TO REPLACE.
YEAH, HE'S PRETTY CLOSE TO IRREPLACEABLE LORI.
BUT HEY, LORI, JUST, JUST SO YOU KNOW THAT IT LOOKS LIKE THERE'S A FIVE OR TEN SECOND DELAY IN WHAT YOU'RE GETTING AND, AND WHAT'S COMING THROUGH FACETIME? OH, I'M JUST LISTENING THROUGH.
SO IF YOU'RE JUST LISTENING TO OKAY.
NO, JUST WASN'T, IT WAS TOO DISTRACTING TOO.
I THINK WE'RE DOWN TO, UM, APPROVING THE MINUTES.
[5. February 1, 2024 Municipal Authority meeting minutes]
THE NEXT, UH, ITEM IS WE HAVE TWO SETS OF MINUTES TO APPROVE.UH, HOPEFULLY THE MEMBERS HAVE HAD A CHANCE TO LOOK THEM OVER.
UM, FIRST ONE WE'LL CONSIDER IS THE MUNICIPAL AUTHORITY MEETING MINUTES FROM FEBRUARY 1ST, 2024, MOVE ADOPTION.
IS THERE A SECOND TO THAT? SECOND.
UH, ANY, UH, ANY COMMENTS AT ALL? YES.
UM, ALL IN FAVOR, PLEASE SAY AYE.
[6. April 4, 2024 Municipal Authority meeting minutes]
ARE THE DISMISSIBLE AUTHORITY MEETING MINUTES FROM APRIL 4TH, 2024.UM, DOES ANY DISCUSSION AT ALL, ANY COMMENTS ON THAT MOVE? ADOPTION SECOND.
UH, ALL IN FAVOR, PLEASE SAY AYE.
THEN WE WILL THEN MOVE ON TO THE ACTION AND DISCUSSION ITEMS. AND, UM, THE
[7. Consider appointment of Laurie Higgins as the Municipal Authority representative to the Environmental Advisory Committee for a term through 2026]
FIRST ITEM UNDER THERE IS TO CONSIDER THE APPOINTMENT OF LAURIE HIGGINS AS A MUNICIPAL AUTHORITY REPRESENTATIVE TO THE ENVIRONMENTAL ADVISORY COMMITTEE FOR TERM THROUGH 2026.TIM, YOU WANNA SAY SOMETHING ABOUT THIS? YEAH, I JUST WANTED TO, UM, UH, SAY THAT LORI'S ALREADY BEEN A FIXTURE ON THE EAC AND BILL CASPER USED TO BE OUR,
[00:10:01]
UM MM-HMMOUR EMISSARY TO THAT ORGANIZATION.
HE'S ASKED TO, TO, UH, TO STOP DOING THAT.
SO WE HAVEN'T HAD AN MA REPRESENTATIVE TO THE EAC AND TELL SINCE HE STEPPED OFF.
AND THE WAY THE EAC IS STRUCTURED, WE TRY TO HAVE A REPRESENTATIVE FROM THE PLANNING COMMISSION AND THE PARK BOARD AND THE MUNICIPAL AUTHORITY.
AND SO, UM, SINCE SHE'S ALREADY ON THERE, WE'RE TRYING TO, UH, JUST KILL, UH, KILL SOME BIRDS.
IT'S ANOTHER MEETING YOU GUYS DON'T HAVE, DON'T HAVE TO GO TOO.
SO, UM, AND, UM, JUST, UH, YOU JUST GUYS NEED TO ACT ON THAT.
FIRST I'D JUST LIKE TO SAY, LORI, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR, UH, FILLING ME IN THERE AND DOING THAT.
UH, WE APPRECIATE IT THAT NONE OF THE REST OF US HAVE TO HAVE ANOTHER MEETING, SO, UM, YOU'RE WELCOME.
I THINK
[8. Update from Authority Engineer on MS4 compliance activities]
UPDATE ON THE, UH, FROM THE AUTHORITY ENGINEER ON MS FOUR COMPLIANCE ACTIVITIES.MIKE, THE TOWN, THE TOWNSHIP HAS COMPLIED WITH THEIR 2025 PROGRAM BY WOULD HELP FROM THE DEVELOPER UP ON GREENWOOD AVENUE.
HE IGN THE STREAM, DID SOME STREAM BANK RESTORATION, AND PLANTED ALL THOSE LIVE STAKES.
ONCE IT BECOMES SPRING AND THINGS TURN GREEN, DEPS COME OUT AND COUNT THE HUNDREDS OF LIVE STAKES TO MAKE SURE THEY'RE ALL THERE, WHICH I GUESS THEY'LL DO THAT, OR ROME WILL JUST SAY THEY DID IT.
BUT THAT, AND THEN THAT'S ALL DONE FOR 2025 WE'RE RECOVERED AND, BUT DEPS NOT SET ANY STANDARDS, UH, PAST 2025.
SO WE'RE STILL WAITING ON TO SEE WHAT THE NEXT PROGRAM REQUIREMENTS WILL BE AFTER THIS.
SO THAT'S ALL I HAVE FOR MS FOUR.
ANY QUESTIONS ON THAT FOR MIKE? I JUST WAS GONNA INVITE OUR NEW MEMBERS.
UM, THE MS FOUR IS, UH, IT'S A REQUIREMENT THAT COMES FROM THE EPA DOWN THROUGH, UH, THE STATE THAT REQUIRES THE TOWNSHIP TO HAVE CERTAIN TARGETS WHERE WE HAVE TO REMEDIATE STORM WATER.
AND I'D BE HAPPY TO SET UP A ONE-ON-ONE WITH YOU, JOHN, OR, AND YOU ELISA, WITH OUR ENGINEERS SO YOU CAN GET A LITTLE BIT MORE IN THE WEEDS AND UNDERSTAND IT.
BE, I'D BE HAPPY TO SET SOMETHING UP.
FIRST THING YOU MAY WONDER WAS WHAT MS FOUR EVEN STANDS FOR AND WHAT IT MEANS.
AND YOU'RE GONNA ASK ME TO SAY THAT, UM, I WAS GONNA ASK MIKE IS MUNICIPAL STORM, SINGLE STORM SEWER SYSTEM SYSTEM, RIGHT? RIGHT.
THAT'S WHY IT'S FOUR FOUR ESSENCE JAMES.
AND WHO, THERE'S SOMEBODY ON GILMORE THAT KIND OF GETS IN THE WEEDS.
IS THAT, UM, WHO'S THAT? WHO'S THE PERSON WHO, UH, MARK.
UH, IF THERE'S NOTHING FURTHER ON THAT, UM,
[9. Receive update on current and pending water / sewer projects]
WE CAN GIVE UPDATES ON CURRENT IMPENDING WATER AND SEWER PROJECTS.LAST YEAR WE HAD PROJECTS GOING ON THAT WE NEVER TALKED ABOUT 'CAUSE WE NEVER HAD ANY MEETINGS.
BUT THE KEOKUK STORMWATER HEAD WALL DOWN IN DOMINGO DEVELOPMENT MM-HMM
THAT PROJECT'S ALL FINISHED THE NEW HEAD WALL'S UP THE NEW GUIDE RAILS UP.
WE DID THE GREENWOOD AVENUE SEWER, WHICH RAN SEWER FROM COLLEGE AVENUE TO MAIN STREET.
AND I BELIEVE THE ONE HOUSE IS ALREADY TIED IN THE HOUSE THAT WANTED TO TIE IN FOR THE LAST TWO YEARS.
WE ARE WORKING ON A SMALL SEWER PROJECT UP OFF OF TOWNSHIP LINE ROAD THAT SHOULD GO OUT TO BID PROBABLY IN THE SPRING.
AND THEN THE OTHER, THE BIG PROJECT WE'RE WORKING ON RIGHT NOW IS REPLACING THE FORCE MAIN FROM THE MINGO ROAD PUMP STATION, WHICH IS THE BIG PUMP STATION DOWN ON SECOND AVENUE.
AND THE GRAVITY MAIN ALL THE WAY THROUGH THE COUNTY PROPERTY, DOWN TO THE INTERCEPTOR ALONG THE RIVER.
AND WE HAVE PER, WE'RE PERMITTING THAT RIGHT NOW.
WE HAVE PERMANENT APPLICATION IN THE PENDOT.
WE HAVE PERMANENT APPLICATION IN THE DEP AND WE DID A BUNCH OF TEST HOLES ON TUESDAY TO FIND THE EXISTING GAS LINE AND OTHER UTILITIES THAT WE HAVE TO WORK AROUND.
SO THAT'S THE BIG PROJECT FOR THIS YEAR IS REPLACING THAT SANITARY SEWER LINE.
I MEAN, IT'S AN OLD ASBESTOS PIPE.
IT WAS BUILT IN THE NINE, PROBABLY EARLY 1970.
IT'S 50 YEARS OLD AND WE DON'T WANNA RISK IT JUST FRACTURING AND DUMPING SEWER ALL OVER THE PLACE.
SO THE TOWNSHIP IS BEING PROACTIVE AND WORKING ON REPLACING IT.
NOW, BEFORE SOMETHING LIKE THAT COULD HAPPEN, DID YOU WANNA TALK ABOUT, I GUESS WE'RE LOOKING AT A 10 YEAR LINING SEWER PROJECT.
AND THEN THE OTHER BIG INFRASTRUCTURE IS THE CHUCO RIVER INTERCEPTOR.
AND THE TOWNSHIP IS LOOKING AT LINING THAT IN, WHICH IS IT 10 YEARS OR FIVE YEARS? I THOUGHT IT WAS FIVE YEARS.
$10 MILLION, $2 MILLION A YEAR.
5,000,005 YEARS AT $2 MILLION A POP.
DOING A SECTION AT $2 MILLION EACH YEAR.
[00:15:01]
GET THAT ALL LINED SO THAT THAT'S GOOD FOR ANOTHER 50, 60 YEARS WITHOUT, IS THAT ALSO ASBESTOS LINE? IS THAT WHAT ASBESTOS? NO, THAT'S CONCRETE.WE REPLACED THE SECTION OF IT LAST YEAR AS AN EMERGENCY.
THEY WERE TELEVISING TO LOOK AT THE CONDITION AND WE FOUND THE HOLE ABOUT 12 INCHES IN DIAMETER IN IT.
SO WE LINED A SECTION LAST YEAR AS AN EMERGENCY AND THEN DECIDED THAT SINCE THAT WENT SO WELL, WE WERE GONNA LINE THE WHOLE THING, JUST DO IT IN SECTIONS.
AND I THINK THE SECTION WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THIS YEAR IS THE LOWER AND CLOSEST TO THE TREATMENT PLANT.
WORK OUR WAY UP TOWARDS THE COUNTY PROPERTY.
SO THAT'S THE, LIKE TIM SAID, IT'S A FIVE YEAR PROJECT BUDGETING, $2 MILLION A YEAR TO DO A SECTION TO GET IT ALL DONE.
AND MIKE, WE ALSO HAVE THE FORCE, IS IT THE FORCE MAIN PROJECT? THE, UH, SECOND AVENUE I JUST TOLD THAT WAS WHEN I TALKED, THAT WAS THE FORCE MAIN GRAVITY WE GOT.
WE'VE GOT A POTENTIAL, WE, WE MAY HAVE A FEDERAL GRANT.
WHO KNOWS? THOUGHT WE THOUGHT WE HAD A FEDERAL GRANT.
WELL, I DON'T KNOW WHAT'S GOING ON IN WASHINGTON NOWADAYS.
SO, SO WE HAD AN EARMARK, A $2 MILLION EARMARK THAT I THOUGHT WAS GONNA GO THROUGH.
IT WAS SPONSORED BY CASEY AND MADELINE DEAN'S OFFICE.
AND AS YOU KNOW, CASEY'S NOT, UH, I THINK THAT THOSE RECORDS WERE TRANSFERRED TO SENATOR FETTERMAN'S OFFICE AND I THINK THEY'RE TALKING, BUT THERE'S NO FEDERAL UNTIL THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT GETS A BUDGET PASSED.
UM, THAT'S ALL IT IS, IS AN, IS A LINE ITEM IN A POTENTIAL EARMARK.
SO, SO SEE WHAT, WELL IT WAS GOOD TO HEAR SOME UPDATES ON SOME OF THE PROJECTS BECAUSE I LIKE MIKE.
I THINK WE DID TALK ABOUT EARLY LAST YEAR SOMETIME ABOUT SOME OF THOSE, UM, YES.
THAT YOU MENTIONED THAT THAT REALLY WEREN'T, UH, GOING YET, BUT THEY WERE CLOSE, THEY WERE PENDING AND SO FORTH, SO IT'S NICE TO HEAR.
SO THEY GOT OUT THE BID AND LIKE TWO OF 'EM ARE COMPLETED.
GREENWOOD AVENUE'S COMPLETED, KEOKUK ROADS COMPLETED.
SO, AND IS WHAT, WHAT IS ALL, IS THE GOAL TO UM, DO ALL OF THE SCHULL INTERCEPTOR OVER THOSE FIVE YEARS YEARS THAT WE TALKED ABOUT? YEP.
SO IT HAS A NEW LINING AND IT'LL LAST A LOT LONGER THAN IT, IT'S A LOT CHEAPER TO LINE IT THAN IT WOULD BE TO DIG IT UP AND REPLACE IT.
AND THE LINING SEEMS TO BE WORKING WELL.
'CAUSE WE EVEN, WE LINED THE STORM SEWER TOO THIS YEAR, THIS PAST YEAR.
UH, STORM SEAL PIPE WE'RE GONNA RIP OUT AND REPLACE UNDER SLATER MILL ROAD.
WE LINE THAT RATHER THAN RIP IT OUT.
SO THAT'S WAS ANOTHER THING WE DID.
IS, IS ANY OF THAT INTERCEPTOR STILL, UM, OWNED BY THE REGIONAL AUTHORITY OR IS THE CHUCO RIVER INTERCEPTOR IS OWNED ALL BY UPPER PROVIDENCE TOWNSHIP.
THE REGIONAL AUTHORITY OWNS THE PER PROCUREMENT CREEK INTERCEPT, JUST THE PLANT.
UH, ANY OTHER QUESTIONS FOR MIKE? HEARING NONE, WE WILL MOVE
[10. Update on West Chester storm water fee litigation]
ON TO THE WESTCHESTER STORM WATER FEE LITIGATION UPDATE, WHICH IS, I'LL GET A LITTLE CLOSER.UM, I KNOW I'M VERY REPETITIOUS WITH THIS, BUT SO MUCH TIME GOES BY BETWEEN MEETINGS AND IT'S SO IMPORTANT THAT I'M GONNA BE REPETITIOUS ONE MORE TIME.
SO
AND SO THE TOWNSHIP HAS TOTAL CONTROL OVER IT TO OPERATE IT.
AND THAT LE HAS LEFT HISTORICALLY WITH RESPECT TO SANITARY SEWER.
YOUR ONLY JOB REALLY WAS TO MAKE RECOMMENDATIONS ON RATE INCREASES.
WHEN THE TOWNSHIP QUESTIONED WHETHER, WHETHER ONE, WHETHER IT SHOULD BE AN INCREASE IN RATES, THE AUTHORITY WOULD MEET AND WEIGH IN ON AND APPROVE OR, OR, OR NOT APPROVE OF THE RECOMMENDATION.
SO THEN ALONG COMES STORM WATER.
SO NOW SWITCHING FROM YOUR SANITARY SYSTEM OVER TO YOUR STORM WATER, UM, THE MS FOUR THAT WE WERE JUST TALKING ABOUT ALONG WITH SOME OTHER LAWS ARE DRIVING, UM, THE NEED FOR MEANINGFUL, UH, UPGRADES AND CONTROL OVER STORMWATER.
UM, IN FACT, THE MS FOUR, A LOT OF MUNICIPAL PEOPLE WOULD SAY MS FOUR IS TRYING TO RETURN EVERYBODY TO THE STORMWATER SITUATION THAT EXISTED IN LIKE 1875.
THEY JUST WANT A TOTAL RESET TO, SO THAT THE STORMWATER DOESN'T CAUSE THE HARMS THAT IT DOES CAUSE SUCH AS SCOUR AND THINGS TO THE RECEIVING BODIES OF WATER.
SO STORMWATER RIGHT NOW IS VERY, VERY MUCH IN THE FOREFRONT.
AND BECAUSE OF THAT, THE, THE SUPERVISORS HAD ME AMEND YOUR ARTICLES OF INCORPORATION TO STATE WHAT YOUR POWERS ARE AS NOW ALSO INCLUDING RECOMMENDATIONS ON FEES FOR STORM WATER.
AND SO REALLY SEEMS, FEELS LIKE IT'S ONLY A FEW
[00:20:01]
MEETINGS AGO, BECAUSE IT WAS TWO YEARS AGO, WE BEGAN DISCUSSING AT OUR MEETINGS AN OVERALL PLAN FOR STORM WATER CHARGES, UH, BASED ON HOW MUCH IMPERVIOUS YOU HAVE AND WHAT THINGS YOU GET CREDIT FOR AND HOW THE CALCULATIONS ARE MADE AND WHEN PAYMENT HAS TO BE MADE.AND THERE WERE ALREADY A FEW MUNICIPALITIES THAT WERE WAY OUT IN FRONT OF UPPER PROVIDENCE, UM, WESTCHESTER WAS ONE.
UM, AND THEN WHAT WAS THE TOWNSHIP OUT NEAR HARRISBURG? A DAIRY DAIRY TOWN.
THEY WERE, THEY WERE REALLY IN THE LEAD.
THEY WERE GOING ALL AROUND THE STATE, GIVING PRESENTATIONS AND ALL HOW TO MAKE STORM ORDER CALCULATIONS.
IT'S JUST GONNA BE LIKE ANOTHER BILL YOU GET TO YOUR HOUSE FOR STORM ORDER CONTROL.
SO SECOND CLASS, UH, IN 2019 OR 2020 SECOND, CLASS TOWNSHIPS WERE GIVEN THE POWER TO IMPOSE STORMWATER CHARGES DIRECTLY WITHOUT HAVING TO FORM AN AUTHORITY.
SO THEY, THEY DID, THEY WERE TRYING TO GET IT MOVING AND THEY DIDN'T WANT TOWNSHIPS TO HAVE TO CREATE AN AUTHORITY IF THEY DIDN'T ALREADY HAVE AN AUTHORITY AND TRY TO FIND BOARD MEMBERS AND EVERYTHING.
SO THEY SAID, OKAY, YOU CAN DO IT DIRECTLY.
UM, IN FACT, IT WAS FOR BOROUGHS AND FIRST CLASS TOWNSHIPS AND SECOND CLASS TOWNSHIPS, BUT THROUGH POLITICAL WRANGLING, I DON'T EXACTLY KNOW WHAT HAPPENED, BUT I KNOW THAT IT STARTED AS FOR ALL THREE AND IT ENDED AS ONLY FOR SECOND CLASS TOWNSHIPS HAVE THAT.
SO MEANWHILE, AND THAT'S AS YET UNTESTED IN THE COURTS, THAT LANGUAGE.
SO THEN ALONG COMES THE WESTCHESTER CASE.
AND IN THE WESTCHESTER CASE, THE BOROUGH OF WESTCHESTER TRIED TO COLLECT THE STORMWATER FEE FROM THE, UH, FROM WESTCHESTER UNIVERSITY.
AND THE, THE UNIVERSITY THROUGH THE STATE SYSTEM PUSHED BACK.
AND AT THIS POINT THEY ARE THE WINNER.
SO WE HAVE OUR COURT, OUR COUNTY COURTS ARE IN OUR COUNTY SEATS.
THEN THERE'S AN APPEALS COURT, WHICH IN THIS CASE IS CALLED COMMONWEALTH COURT.
THEN SUPREME COURT, COMMONWEALTH COURT RULED, UM, AT THE END OF 2023, I GUESS IT WAS, UM, THAT THE CHARGE FOR IN WESTCHESTER WAS ACTUALLY A TAX.
THE DISTINCTION BETWEEN FEES AND TAXES IS MORE SUBTLE AND MORE COMPLICATED THAN YOU MIGHT THINK THAT IT IS.
BUT IF YOU WERE TO STATE IT IN A NUTSHELL, WHAT THE COURT SAID WAS, A FEE IS WHERE I GET SOMETHING FOR PAYING A FEE.
THAT'S FOR ME, A TAX IS WHAT YOU CHARGE ON EVERYBODY WHEN IT BENEFITS EVERYBODY.
BUT IF I'M NOT GETTING A THING THAT'S A SPECIFICALLY UNIQUE BENEFIT TO ME, THEN IT'S NOT A FEE.
SO YOU PAY A FEE TO THE TOWNSHIP TO GET A PERMIT TO PUT AN ADDITION ON YOUR HOUSE, THAT'S YOU A TAX, EVERYBODY'S GONNA PAY AND WE'RE GONNA SPEND IT ON WHATEVER NEEDS FIXING, WHETHER YOU BENEFIT FROM IT OR YOU DON'T BENEFIT FROM IT.
SO THAT WAS THE ESSENCE OF WHAT THE COMMONWEALTH COURT SAID.
IT, IT'S NOW UP ON APPEAL TO THE SUPREME COURT.
IT HAS BEEN BRIEFED, IT HAS BEEN ARGUED BEFORE THE SUPREME, THE PA SUPREME COURT.
AND WE ARE AWAITING FOR A RULING.
I MEAN, IT COULD COME ANY DAY, IT COULD COME, BUT THEY'RE SLOW.
THE ORAL ARGUMENT WAS IN SEPTEMBER 11TH.
UM, AND SO YOU WOULD ANTICIPATE A DECISION SOMETIME SOON, BUT WHO KNOWS? SO IF THEY WERE TO UPHOLD THE COMMONWEALTH COURT SO THAT IT IS A TAX, YOU ARE THEN PRESENTED WITH THE PROBLEM THAT NONPROFITS DON'T HAVE TO PAY IT.
AND AS A, AT A POLICY LEVEL, A LOT OF PEOPLE FEEL A STRONG DISTASTE FOR NONPROFITS NOT HAVING TO PAY THEIR SHARE OF A PROBLEM LIKE STORMWATER.
THEY HAVE PARKING LOTS, THEY HAVE IMPERVIOUS, THEY HAVE ALL THE THINGS THAT YOU HAVE STORMWATER FOR.
AND SO PUTTING THE BURDEN ON EVERYBODY ELSE AND NEVER THEM, DOESN'T SIT WELL WITH PEOPLE.
SO THAT'S KIND OF WHY IT'S A BIG ISSUE.
UM, AND, AND IF IT IS A, IF IT IS A, UH, TAX, YOU THEN HAVE TO QUESTION IS THE LANGUAGE IN THAT SECOND CLASS TOWNSHIPS WERE GIFTED A COUPLE YEARS AGO WITHIN THE SCOPE OF THE DECISION, BE BECAUSE THE CASE CAME OUT OF A BOROUGH.
THE EXTRA GIFT THAT SECOND CLASS TOWNSHIPS GOT ISN'T DISCUSSED IN THE COMMONWEALTH COURT DECISION.
BUT IF YOU WERE TO LOOK AT THE ANALYSIS IN THE COURT CASE AND LINE IT UP WITH THE CRITERIA IN THE SECOND CLASS TOWNSHIP CODE, YOU WOULD HAVE TO SAY IT RISES AND FALLS WITH THIS, WITH THIS CASE.
SO THAT'S WHAT EVERYBODY'S GOING TO HAVE TO LOOK AT ONCE, ONCE WE GET THE DECISION, HOW BROAD IS IT? UM, DO YOU, DO YOU, DO YOU DARE TO STILL RELY ON THE SECOND CLASS TOWNSHIP CODE PROVISION? AND IF YOU DO, IS IT A FEE? IS IT A TAX, YOU KNOW, IT'S, IT'S IDENTIFIED AS A FEE IN THE SECOND CLASS TOWNSHIP CODE, BUT IF THE DECISION COMPELS THE CONCLUSION
[00:25:01]
THAT IT REALLY IS A TAX, THEN YOU'RE BACK TO THE SAME PROBLEM WITH RESPECT TO NONPROFITS.SO, UM, WE'LL SEE WHAT, WHERE THE FUTURE IS WITH THIS STORMWATER FEES.
I MEAN THE, THE PLANS ARE, EVERYBODY'S REALLY JUST KIND OF WAITING.
DIFFERENT PEOPLE ARE AT DIFFERENT POINTS ALONG THE PATH.
AND I KNOW THERE ARE A COUPLE OF MUNICIPALITIES WHO ARE ACTUALLY PROCEEDING AHEAD IN THE FACE OF THEY'RE WAITING UNTIL THEY'RE DIRECTLY CHALLENGED, WHICH I THINK IS RECKLESS.
I THINK IT COULD WIND UP WITH REFUNDS AND PENALTIES.
IT JUST DOES NOT SEEM LIKE A GOOD IDEA TO ME.
SO MAYBE BY THE NEXT TIME WE MEET, WE'LL WE WILL KNOW, WE'LL HAVE GUIDANCE, UM, ON A CASE THAT SUPERFICIALLY IS A BORING DRY DECISION DECISION, BUT WHICH REALLY IS ONE OF THE MORE IMPORTANT DECISIONS AWAITING OUT THERE.
AND CERTAINLY THE MOST IMPORTANT ONE THAT WILL EVER IMPACT YOU AS AN AUTHORITY.
BECAUSE IF YOU, YOU KNOW, DEPENDING ON HOW IT, HOW IT GOES, YOU KNOW, IF THE TOWNSHIP TAKES OVER THE FUNCTION UNDER THE SECOND CLASS TOWNSHIP PROVISION, THEN YOU WOULD STILL ONLY BE RECOMMENDING ON, UH, SANITARY SEWER MAYBE ALSO RECOMMENDING ON THIS.
BUT THAT DEPENDS ON HOW, HOW, YOU KNOW, HOW IT GOES.
SO THAT'S A VERY LONG-WINDED EXPLANATION, BUT IT'S SO IMPORTANT THAT I THOUGHT I WOULD START BACK AT THE BEGINNING AND BRING EVERYBODY UP TO SPEED.
ANY QUESTIONS? BECAUSE IT IS A VERY COMPLEX AND COMPLICATED, UH MM-HMM
IT'S ONE REASON WE HAVEN'T BEEN MEETING THAT MUCH IS BECAUSE NO, WE, WE'VE BEEN WAITING FOR THAT FOR A LONG TIME.
AND, UH, EXPECTING SOMETHING WOULD COME AND IT HASN'T.
BUT, BUT JOE RECOMMENDED THAT, THAT WE, THAT THE PRUDENT THING FOR THE AUTHORITY WAS TO JUST WAIT AND SEE UNTIL THERE'S A FINAL DECISION FROM THE SUPREME COURT.
AND, AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT'S WHAT WE'VE BEEN ON IS WAITING FOR THAT.
UNLIKE SOME OTHER MUNICIPALITIES THAT HAVE CHOSEN TO PROCEED, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT PUSHED IT BACK IS THAT, UM, IN, IN THE, IN THE APPEALS COURT, IN THE APPEALS COURTS, YOU HAVE, UM, THIS THING CALLED AMICUS STATUS, AMICUS BRIEFS, WHICH MEANS IN LATIN FRIEND OF THE COURT.
SO OUTSIDE AGENCIES, UM, COULD ASK FOR PERMISSION TO BRIEF THE CASE, EVEN THOUGH THEY'RE NOT A PARTY TO IT, TO, TO MAKE EXTRA RECOMMENDATIONS.
AND THERE WERE SO MANY AGENCIES, ENVIRONMENTAL AGENCIES THAT FILED THE, THOSE BRIEFS THAT THE BRIEFING SCHEDULE WAS PUSHED BACK LIKE FIVE MONTHS.
THE, THE LAST ONE, WHICH WAS FILED BY THE ATTORNEY GENERAL'S OFFICE WAS ONLY FILED IN THIS PAST AUGUST.
AND THEY HAD BEEN BEING FILED OVER THE COURSE OF 2024.
AND THAT ALSO, THAT DID HAVE A LOT TO DO WITH PUSHING IT BACK, BECAUSE THAT'S HOW BIG THE ISSUE IS.
YOU DON'T USUALLY HAVE THAT MANY ENTITIES ASKING TO PARTICIPATE.
UH, HYPOTHETICALLY, IF THIS WERE A FEE, WHAT WAS THE, LIKE TYPICAL HOUSEHOLD, WHAT WERE WE TALKING ABOUT IN TERMS OF SCALE OF THE TAX OF FEE? THERE WAS A BIG RATE.
I DON'T YOU REMEMBER, WAS IT LIKE 1300 A YEAR OR SOMETHING? I DUNNO.
THERE WAS AN AVERAGE FEE, BUT I, YOU KNOW, I THINK IT WAS 52, WASN'T IT 52 BUCKS? I THOUGHT IT WAS.
I THOUGHT IT, IT WAS, THOUGHT IT WAS LIKE 35 TO 40 YEAH.
AND, AND I THINK, I THOUGHT IT WAS A BIGGER NUMBER AND I THINK IT WAS FOR ONE EI THINK FOR THE AVERAGE RESIDENTIALS ONE EDUI THINK THE CALCULATIONS THAT HAD BEEN DONE FOR US WERE, WERE LED, SOMETHING LIKE THAT.
IT WAS LESS THAN A HUNDRED DOLLARS.
I AND MIKE DIDN'T MARK, MARK BEFORE THIS WHOLE CASE CAME OUT.
THE MARK HAD PREPARED A STORMWATER IMPERVIOUS MAP.
I DON'T KNOW IF THAT RING THAT WAS JOSH OR THAT WAS JOSH THAT DID THAT.
SO WE WERE ALL READY TO GO AND THEN WE WERE PRETTY FAR ALONG ON IT FROM
YEAH, I REMEMBER THERE WAS, IT WAS A NON, I MUST I MIGHT BE THINKING OF THE, UH, CHART THERE.
WE, WE HAD CHARTS FOR SPECIAL CIRCUMSTANCES LIKE LARGE LANDOWNERS, COMMERCIAL BUSINESSES THAT HAD BIGGER NUMBERS THAN THAT.
SO I GUESS I'M CONFLATING THAT THERE WAS ALSO CREDITS A WAY YOU COULD GET CREDITS.
CREDITS COMPLICATED, BUT MM-HMM
AND IT WAS TIED TO THE AMOUNT OF IMPERVIOUS COVERAGE FOR BUILDINGS AND PAVEMENT AND SO FORTH ON EACH PROPERTY.
I GET THE FIRST EMAIL, JOE, WHEN YOU FIND OUT.
YOU WILL ALL BE THE FIRST TO KNOW
UM, WITH THAT, I GUESS WE ARE READY FOR AN ADJOURNMENT SINCE WE CANNOT ADD ANYTHING TO THE AGENDA UNLESS THERE'S ANYTHING YOU, ANY ANNOUNCEMENTS YOU WANT.
I WILL SAY THAT OUR NEXT MEETING, UM, IF WE HAVE IT, IS APRIL 4TH.
SO WE MEET EVERY TWO, EVERY OTHER, SO, OKAY.
THERE'S A SECOND FOR ADJOURNMENT.