[00:00:02]
I'M CALLING[CALL TO ORDER]
THIS, UH, UPPER PROVIDENCE TOWNSHIP BOARD OF SUPERVISORS MEETING FOR, UH, MONDAY, JUNE 17TH TO ORDER, LET'S, UH, STAND FOR THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE, PLEDGE ALLEGIANCE TO THE FLAG FLAG.THE UNITED, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, AND TO THE REPUBLIC FORCE STANDS, ONE NATION INDIVISIBLE WITH JUSTICE FOR ALL.
[MOTION TO APPROVE BOARD AGENDA]
FIRST ONE IS A MOTION TO APPROVE THE BOARD AGENDA.I'LL MAKE A MOTION TO APPROVE TONIGHT'S AGENDA.
I'LL SECOND WE HAVE A MOTION AND A SECOND.
[SPECIAL PRESENTATION]
FROM TRAP, HISTORIC TRAP,I'M THE EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF HISTORIC TRAP.
UM, AND, UH, JUST HERE, CAN I JUST SHARE A LITTLE BIT ABOUT WHAT WE'VE BEEN UP TO SINCE I WAS HERE A YEAR OR SO AGO? UM, AND SOME UPCOMING EVENTS.
BUT, SO, UM, DESPITE OUR NAME, HISTORIC TRAP, WE SERVICE THE WHOLE HISTORIC PROVIDENCE TOWNSHIP REGION.
SO UPPER, LOWER PROVIDENCE TOWNSHIPS, TRAP BOROUGH, COLLEGE OF BOROUGH, AND ALSO A LOT OF PERM IN TOWNSHIP THAT WE COLLECT AND PRESERVE ARTIFACTS AND ARCHIVAL DOCUMENTS, UM, FROM ALL OF THOSE AREAS.
AND WE HAVE, UM, WE JUST HIRED OUR FIRST CURATOR.
OUR COLLECTIONS DATABASE IS AVAILABLE FREE ONLINE THAT YOU, IF YOU'RE INTERESTED, ANYBODY CAN GO AND TAKE A LOOK AND SEE WHAT'S IN THE COLLECTION.
UM, WE KEEP ADDING MORE AND MORE TO THAT.
AND THEN WE ALSO HAVE A RESEARCH LIBRARY WHERE WE HAVE A LOT OF FOLKS WHO CONTACT US WANTING HELP, YOU KNOW, RESEARCHING THE HISTORY OF THEIR HOUSE, OR IF THEY HAVE A HISTORIC, UM, PROPERTY, A BUSINESS MAY BE LOCATED IN IT, UH, GENEALOGY REQUEST.
SO WE HAVE, YOU KNOW, WE HELP HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE IN THE COMMUNITY WITH THINGS LIKE THAT.
UM, WE'RE ALSO VERY ACTIVE WITH, UH, PROGRAMS GOING ON.
UM, WE JUST KICKED OFF OUR ANNUAL, UH, SUMMER ARCHEOLOGY FIELD SCHOOL IN PARTNERSHIP WITH OUR SINUS.
SO WE HAVE 12 STUDENTS, UM, FROM ALL OVER THE COUNTRY WHO ARE PARTICIPATED IN THAT, UM, LIVING AT OUR SINUS, AND THEY'RE DOING EXCAVATIONS ON OUR SPEAKERS HOUSE PROPERTY, WHICH WE'RE WORKING TO FINISH THE RESTORATION OF FOR 2026.
UM, FOR THE AMERICA TWO 50, I'M JUST GONNA BRING HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF TOURISTS TO THE VALLEY FORGE PHILADELPHIA AREA.
SO WE DEFINITELY WANNA BE READY FOR THAT.
UM, WE'RE WORKING ON BIG SPECIAL EXHIBITION FOR 2026 AS WELL.
UM, AND THEN ON SATURDAYS WE HAVE A KIDS DIG HISTORY PROGRAM THAT'S FREE FOR FAMILIES THAT THEY CAN COME AND DIG WITH THE ARCHEOLOGY STUDENTS.
THEY CAN SCRUB ARTIFACTS IN THE LAB AND LEARN ABOUT THAT.
UH, OUR FARM STAND HAS JUST KICKED OFF WHERE WE GROW HEIRLOOM VEGETABLES AND WE HAVE THOSE FOR SALE.
AND THIS YEAR WE HAVE, UM, SOME LOCAL CONSIGNORS AS WELL, BRINGING IN SOME OTHER THINGS.
UM, AND THEN COMING UP, WE HAVE OUR BIG DINNER ON MAIN EVENT ON JULY 14TH.
IT'S A SUNDAY EVENING WHERE WE CLOSE DOWN A SECTION OF MAIN STREET, AND WE'RE UP TO ABOUT A DOZEN OR SO RESTAURANTS AND BREWERIES THIS YEAR WHO ARE PARTICIPATING, UM, IN THAT EVENT.
AND SO WE'RE EXPECTING ABOUT 200 OR SO PEOPLE.
UM, AND WE'LL HAVE THE MUSEUMS OPEN AS PART OF THAT.
UM, AND THEN WE HAVE A HUGE CRAFT SHOW WE'RE BRINGING TO TOWN, UH, IN MIDDLE AUGUST, WHICH WILL BE AT, UH, PV MIDDLE SCHOOL EAST, UM, WITH ABOUT 40 OF THE NATION'S TOP AMERICANA ARTISANS.
UM, SO THERE'S A LOT GOING ON.
THAT'S JUST THE SUMMER, ALL SORTS OF PROGRAMS FOR THE FALL AND WINTER.
AND WE CERTAINLY, UM, YOU KNOW, LOOK FORWARD TO WORKING WITH THE TOWNSHIP AND MAKING SURE THAT WE GET THE WORD OUT.
THE TOWNSHIP RESIDENTS KNOW ABOUT ALL THESE EVENTS AND FEEL WELCOME, CERTAINLY TO ATTEND.
UM, SO, SO THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
IF, IF THERE'S ANY QUESTIONS, I'M HAPPY TO ANSWER THEM TOO.
I WAS JUST THINKING WE COULD PUT IT IN OUR NEWSLETTER, DIFFERENT EVENTS THAT YOU HAVE.
AND JUST A SIDE NOTE, I WORK WITH TRAP STAR SOCIETY, DID RESEARCH IN MY HOUSE.
I HAVE A 1766 FARMHOUSE, SO I WAS JUST DEALING, I THINK YOUR MOM, SHE'S ONE OF OUR MAIN RESEARCHERS YES.
CAME OVER AND PRESENTED IT ALL TO ME.
UM, HISTORIC PREP IS ONE OF THE THREE, UH, UH, ENTITIES THAT, UH, IS IN OUR BUDGET THIS YEAR FOR, UH, FOR SUPPORT.
SO I THINK WE HAVE THAT, OUR BUDGET, $5,000 SO THAT WE COULD, UH, GET, GET THE CHECK AND A PHOTO OUT.
[00:05:15]
THANK YOU.[PUBLIC COMMENT]
COMMENT.COME UP AND STATE YOUR NAME AND YOUR ADDRESS AND ANYTHING THAT'S ON THE AGENDA OR IS, UH, LIKE TO COMMENT ON AN ITEM THAT IS NOT ON OR IS ON THE AGENDA TONIGHT.
DOES ANYBODY WANT TO COME FORWARD? HI, GOOD EVENING.
BLAKE WELLING, 1 35 BENNINGTON ROAD.
I'D LIKE TO SHARE THE CONTENTS OF, UH, THE EMAIL THAT, UH, PARKHOUSE FRIENDS, UH, SENT TO THE BOARD, UH, UH, FOR THE BENEFIT OF THE, OF THE PUBLIC HERE.
SO, UH, UH, THE PARKHOUSE FRIENDS ADVOCACY STEERING COMMITTEE HAS BEEN CONTACTED BY MR. GARY BERMAN, PRINCIPAL OF
WE, PARKHOUSE FRIENDS ARE INTERESTED IN BEING PART OF THE DISCUSSION, WORKING WITH THE PLANNING COMMISSION AND THE BOARD OF SUPERVISORS TO REPRESENT THE HEALTH, SAFETY AND WELFARE OF THE UPPER PROVIDENCE TOWNSHIP CITIZENS.
SO WE LOOK FORWARD TO WORKING WITH THE COMMISSION AND, UH, LOOK FORWARD TO WORKING THROUGH THE PROCESS.
UH, WE ARE INTERESTED IN KNOWING WHAT THE NEXT STEPS ARE.
UM, WOULD THE BOARD BE WILLING TO SHARE ANY NEXT STEPS AT THIS POINT IN TIME, OR WOULD YOU CARE TO INDICATE WHEN YOU MAY BE ABLE TO SHARE THAT WITH THE PUBLIC? WHAT ARE YOU ASKING EXACTLY? THE LAND DEVELOPMENT PROCESS BEGINS NOW, SO YEAH, THEY'LL BE SUBMITTING A PLAN.
AND SO THE NEXT STEPS INVOLVED.
THERE'S THREE STEPS THAT ARE INVOLVED, TENTATIVE, SKETCH APPROVAL, PRELIMINARY APPROVAL, AND FINAL APPROVAL.
THOSE ARE ALL STEPS SET OUT IN THE MUNICIPALITY'S PLANNING CODE.
BUT THE, WHAT WOULD, THE NEXT THING THAT WOULD HAPPEN WOULD BE THAT THEIR SKETCH PLAN WOULD BE ON THE AGENDA FOR REVIEW PLANNING COMMISSION FIRST.
THE NEXT STEPS WOULD INVOLVE PLANNING COMMISSION REVIEW OF A SKETCH PLAN.
BUILDING ON HERE ON BEHALF OF THE UPPER PROVINCETOWN CENTER.
UM, I JUST WANNA MAKE SURE I RESPECT YOUR PROTOCOL.
WE DO WANNA BE RECOGNIZED AS A PARTY TO THE PUBLIC HEARING, AND I'M NOT SURE YOU WANT ME TO DO THAT UNDER THAT TOPIC, OR I JUST KNOW YOU SAY TO COMMENT ON SOMETHING THAT'S ON THE AGENDA OR NOT.
SO I JUST WANNA MAKE SURE I PROCEED HOW YOU PREFER.
I DON'T BELIEVE THAT THE ADOPTION OF AN ORDINANCE IS A PARTY PROCESS, BUT YOU'LL CERTAINLY BE ENTITLED TO BE HEARD.
SO WOULD YOU LIKE ME TO DO IT UNDER THAT AGENDA ITEM? YES.
WHEN WE'RE, WHEN WE'RE IN THE FORMAL HEARING.
UH, BILL FELTON, 1 33 OLD STATE ROAD.
JUST PIGGYBACKING ON BLAKE'S, UH, QUESTION.
HAS AN APPLICATION BEEN MADE TO THE COUNTY? NO.
THERE'S NOTHING TO REVIEW YET THERE? NO.
SO REALLY, OUR CONTACT SHOULD PROBABLY BE DIRECTLY TO MB HOMES YES.
WHO, WHO, WHO WERE INCLUDED IN OUR THAT WOULD BE MY RECOMMENDATIONS, YES.
SO I ALSO THINK IF WE GET ANY INFORMATION, WE SHOULD PUT IT ON IN THERE, OUR WEBSITE, AND THAT'S, THAT'S WHAT I YEAH.
WE HAVEN'T HEARD ANYTHING, SO THANKS.
WELL, WE, I HAVE AN EXECUTIVE SESSION TO REPORT, UH, WAS HELD TONIGHT BEFORE TONIGHT'S MEETING AND THE TOPICS DISCUSSED FOR
[00:10:01]
REAL ESTATE PERSONNEL AND LEGAL MATTERS.[APPROVAL OF BILL LIST ]
THING, WHICH IS THE APPROVAL OF THE BILL LIST.I'LL MAKE A MOTION THAT WE APPROVE THE BILL LIST FOR THE PERIOD OF MAY ONE THROUGH MAY 31 IN THE AMOUNT OF $2,370,333 AND 29 CENTS.
NEXT IS, THERE'S THREE, UH, APPROVAL OF MINUTES.
THERE'S A THIRD ONE ON THE NEXT PAGE, BUT IT CAN ALL BE DONE IN ONE MOTION.
[APPROVAL OF MINUTES]
MOTION.WE APPROVE THE MINUTES FROM MAY 14, 24 BOARD OF SUPERVISORS WORKSHOP MEETING MINUTES MAY 20TH, 2024 BOARD OF SUPERVISORS REGULAR MEETING MINUTES AND MAY 29TH.
SORRY, THERE'S A FLY
[PUBLIC HEARING]
GOING TO TURN OVER THE MEETING TO SOLICITOR PRESIDENT TO CONDUCT THE HEARING.THIS IS, UH, CONSIDERATION OF TOWNSHIP ORDINANCE 6 0 6 OF 2024.
THIS IS AN ORDINANCE THAT IS PROPOSED TO AMEND THE TOWNSHIP ZONING ORDINANCE AND IS THEREFORE A HEARING CONDUCTED PURSUANT TO THE PENNSYLVANIA MUNICIPALITY'S PLANNING CODE AS A PROPOSED MODIFICATION TO THE ZONING ORDINANCE.
THE, UH, ORDINANCE, SPECIFICALLY AS PROPOSED, IS AN ORDINANCE OF THE TOWNSHIP OF UPPER PROVIDENCE AMENDING CHAPTER 300 BY AMENDING SECTION 300 DASH 90 TO ADD A DEFINITION OF STACKED TOWN HOMES UNDER DWELLING TYPES AS SUBSECTIONS, AND TO ADD A DEFINITION OF RESTAURANT FAST CASUAL, UH, TO AMEND REQUIREMENTS FOR A FINANCIAL INSTITUTION, A STUDIO OR OFFICE USE.
AND SECTIONS 5 24, A FOUR AND 5 24 B FOUR TO ALLOW VARIOUS TYPES OF RESTAURANTS, UH, AMENDING OTHER SECTIONS OF 5 24 TO REMOVE THE AERIAL LIMITATION FOR INDOOR FITNESS, RECREATION, AND ENTERTAINMENT.
USES TO REMOVE THE PROHIBITION ON TRANSFER OF OWNERSHIP TO PERMIT THE MAXIMUM HEIGHT IN THE COMMUNITY SHOPPING CENTER TO BE 55 FEET REQUIREMENTS APPLICABLE TO COMMUNITY AND REGIONAL SHOPPING CENTERS.
AND BY ADDING A NEW SECTION TO ESTABLISH A RESIDENTIAL USE GROUP OPTION IN THE CRSC COMMUNITY AND REGIONAL SHOPPING CENTER DISTRICT.
AND BY AMENDING THE ZONING MAP TO INCLUDE MONTGOMERY COUNTY TAX PARCEL 6 1 0 0 0 0 2 2 6 2 0 DASH EIGHT, AS PART OF THE CRSC COMMUNITY AND REGIONAL SHOPPING CENTER DISTRICT.
WHAT ALL THOSE WORDS REALLY AMOUNT TO IS THAT THERE'S A PROPOSED CHANGE, UH, ALONG ROUTE 29 AT THE CORNER THAT MOST PEOPLE REFER TO AS THE QUEST BUILDING, UH, WHERE IT INTERSECTS BLACKROCK ROAD, UH, TO ALLOW THAT BUILDING TO COME DOWN AND HAVE A SHOPPING CENTER AND SOME RESIDENTIAL HOUSING, UH, IN ITS PLACE.
UH, THE, UM, EXHIBITS ADMITTED TONIGHT BY THE BOARD WILL INCLUDE BOARD EXHIBIT ONE, A COPY OF THE PROPOSED ORDINANCE BOARD EXHIBIT TWO, A COPY OF THE LEGAL NOTICE OF TONIGHT'S HEARING.
UH, AND IF NECESSARY, THE HEARING WILL BE HELD OPEN TO RECEIVE THE PROOF OF PUBLICATION FROM THE NEWSPAPER, WHICH TENDS TO COME BACK SLOWLY.
UM, AND BOARD EXHIBIT FOUR, A COPY, OR THREE, FOUR, UH, COPY OF THE LETTER FROM THE MONTGOMERY COUNTY PLANNING COMMISSION'S REVIEW.
AND THEN LASTLY, I WOULD JUST ASK MR. GRACE TO CONFIRM, UH, THE, THE LOCAL TOWNSHIP PLANNING COMMISSION'S RECOMMENDATION TO THE BOARD THAT RECOMMENDATION READS PLANNING COMMISSION RECOMMENDS IN FAVOR OF THE ORDINANCE CHANGE BY THE BOARD OF SUPERVISORS, WITH A CAVEAT THAT THE COUNTY LETTER RECEIVED AND REVIEWED, AND THAT ANY CHANGES THAT WOULD BE APPLICABLE WILL BE TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT.
THE MOTION WAS MADE BY TOM WRIGHT, SECONDED BY NICOLE DANE, AND VOTED FOUR ZERO TO APPROVE THE MOTION.
THIS IS A, UM, INSTANCE WHERE THE TOWNSHIP HAS NOT INITIATED, UH, REQUEST, UH, ZONING CHANGE ON ITS OWN, BUT RATHER, A REQUEST HAS BEEN MADE BY THE PROPOSED APPLICANT TO DEVELOP, UH, THE PROPERTY.
AND THE APPLICANT IS REPRESENTED BY ATTORNEY ZARO, WHO I WILL NOW TURN THIS OVER TO, TO PRESENT WHAT SHE WISHES IN SUPPORT OF THE REQUESTED CHANGE IN THE ZONING ORDINANCE.
[00:15:02]
HT 1201 COLLEGEVILLE, LLC, WHICH IS AN ENTITY OF HIGH TOP DEVELOPMENT.UM, AS THIS BOARD KNOWS, UH, WE FILED THIS PETITION TO AMEND THE ZONING ORDINANCE AND ZONING MAP A COUPLE OF MONTHS AGO.
HOWEVER, OUR PROCESS WITH BOTH THE BOARD AND THE PLANNING COMMISSION GOES BACK FARTHER THAN THAT.
UH, WE ORIGINALLY APPROACHED THE TOWNSHIP IN NOVEMBER OF 2023 ABOUT A PROPOSAL, UM, TO REZONE THIS PROPERTY.
I THINK AS EVERYONE KNOWS, THIS PROPERTY IS CURRENTLY IMPROVED WITH A MULTI-STORY OFFICE BUILDING THAT HAD HISTORICALLY BEEN USED BY QUEST.
UH, QUEST HAD DECIDED TO VACATE THE SITE, AND THE BUILDING IS CURRENTLY VACANT.
UH, WE FIRST APPEARED IN FRONT OF THE PLANNING COMMISSION IN JANUARY OF THIS YEAR TO PRESENT A SKETCH PLAN.
UM, WE AGAIN, AND THEN CONTINUE THROUGH A PROCESS.
WE'VE BEEN IN FRONT OF A COMBINATION OF THE PLANNING COMMISSION AND THIS BOARD APPROXIMATELY FIVE TIMES TO PREVENT PRESENT, UM, THE PROPOSAL AND, UM, VARIOUS ITERATIONS OF OUR SKETCH PLAN.
UH, THIS PROPOSAL IN A NUTSHELL WOULD, UH, REZONE THE PROPERTY TO COMMUNITY AND REGIONAL SHOPPING CENTER DISTRICT, WHICH IS AN EXISTING DISTRICT IN YOUR TOWNSHIP.
HOWEVER, THERE ARE SEVERAL, UH, TEXT CHANGES PROPOSED TO THAT DISTRICT, UH, PRIMARILY TO EITHER CLEAN UP THINGS THAT ARE ANTIQUATED IN THAT ORDINANCE OR TO ADJUST AND CLARIFY CERTAIN THINGS.
FOR INSTANCE, UM, TODAY THE DISTRICT ALLOWS FAST FOOD USE.
WE WOULD ELIMINATE THAT AS A PROPOSED USE, UH, THROUGH THIS ORDINANCE CHANGE.
BUT WE WOULD ADD A DEFINITION OF FAST CASUAL RESTAURANT TO CLARIFY THE TYPES OF RESTAURANT USES THAT WOULD BE PERMITTED IN THE DISTRICT.
UM, ADDITIONALLY, THERE WOULD BE AN ADDITION OF A RESIDENTIAL USE GROUP TO THE DISTRICT, WHICH WOULD ALLOW FOR STACKED TOWN HOMES.
UM, AS THIS BOARD HAS HEARD, AND I'M HAPPY TO PRESENT MORE EVIDENCE, UH, OR INFORMATION IF NEEDED.
UM, THESE STACKED TOWN HOMES, UH, WE ORIGINALLY WERE PROPOSING 76 STACKED TOWN TOWN HOMES WITH, ESSENTIALLY THAT MEANS ONE UNIT ON TOP OF ANOTHER FOR A TOTAL OF 152 DWELLING UNITS.
OUR MOST RECENT SKETCH PLAN PROPOSES 61, UH, WITH A TOTAL OF 122 DWELLING UNITS.
UM, THESE TOWN HOMES ARE DIFFERENT THAN TOWN HOMES THAT CURRENTLY EXIST IN, UH, THE TOWNSHIP TODAY.
AND WE BELIEVE WOULD PROVIDE, UM, ATTAINABLE AND WORKFORCE HOUSING, UM, THAT WOULD SERVE THE RESIDENTS OF THE COMMUNITY.
UM, SO I'M HAPPY TO PROVIDE ADDITIONAL INFORMATION, UM, IF THE BOARD WAS LIKE, WOULD LIKE IT, BUT I DIDN'T WANT TO BELABOR THIS.
SO, UM, IT MAY BE BEST JUST TO ANSWER QUESTIONS.
WE DO HAVE, UM, OUR FULL TEAM OF CONSULTANTS HERE TONIGHT, IF THE BOARD HAS SPECIFIC QUESTIONS BEFORE THAT, ANY OF THAT HAPPENS.
I ALSO JUST WANTED TO POINT OUT WHEN I WAS ADMITTING DOCUMENTS FOR ON BEHALF OF THE TOWNSHIP, UH, THE PROPERTY WAS ALSO POSTED AND MAILINGS WERE SENT WITHIN 500 FEET, AND I LEFT THAT OUT AS A PART OF THE BACKGROUND.
SO I JUST WANTED TO GET THAT ON THERE.
UM, SO, SO WITH THAT, WE'D BE HAPPY TO ANSWER ANY QUESTIONS.
UM, ON THE 55 FOOT HEIGHT, DOES THAT CONCLUDE BOTH THE RETAIL BUILDINGS AND THE RESIDENTIAL BUILDINGS? UM, THAT IS JUST A MAX HEIGHT FOR THE DISTRICT.
THE, THE RESIDENTIAL BUILDINGS ARE PROPOSED TO BE A MAXIMUM HEIGHT OF 45 FEET.
AND ACTUALLY THE COMMERCIAL BUILDINGS ARE NOT PROPOSED TO BE 55 FEET, BUT WE WANTED TO INCLUDE THAT FLEXIBILITY IN THE EVENT THERE WOULD BE, FOR INSTANCE, A ROCK CLIMBING GYM THAT'S THE TYPE OF USER THAT POTENTIALLY COULD HAVE A HIGHER HEIGHT.
YEAH, THAT'S, THAT'S FINE FOR THE RETAIL BUILDINGS.
BUT 35 IS WHAT WE GENERALLY STOP AT HERE.
I GUESS 45 IS TO ACCOMMODATE THESE NEW STACKED DOWNSTAIRS.
YEAH, TO ACCOMMODATE THOSE, THOSE, IT WOULD BE A UNIT ON TOP OF EACH OTHER.
UM, THE DISTRICT TODAY, UH, THE IO ONE DISTRICT WHERE THIS PROP, WHICH IS WHAT THE CURRENT ZONING IS ON THE PROPERTY TODAY, ALLOWS A MAXIMUM HEIGHT OF 55 FEET.
THE QUESTION, IF WE ALLOW IT TO GO TO 45 HERE, THEN IT COULD THEN GO TO OTHER PLACES AS WELL.
IS THAT RIGHT, JOE? YOU PUT IT.
WELL, THIS IS A SPECIFIC ZONING DISTRICT THAT'S BEING MODIFIED.
SO THE, THE EXTENT OF ITS PORTABILITY TO OTHER ZONING DISTRICTS, I WOULD LET JEFF COMMENT ON, I DON'T KNOW THAT IT WOULD BE THE CRSC ONLY APPLIES IN ONE OTHER AREA OF THE TOWNSHIP WHERE THE TARGET LOWS, I'M SORRY.
NOT THAT, WELL, IT SOMEWHAT APPLIES TO THE TARGET LOWE'S AREA.
IT'S A LITTLE BIT COMPLICATED, BUT THERE, THERE'S AREAS IN THERE THAT CRSC CAN'T APPLY.
IT, IT IT IS A MAPPED DISTRICT AT THE TARGET AND GIANT AT TOWNSHIP LINE AND RIDGE PIKE.
SO RIGHT NOW THERE'S THE ONLY, THOSE ARE THE ONLY THREE AREAS.
WELL, ASSUMING THIS GETS THREE ZONE WOULD BE THE ONLY THREE AREAS THAT THIS COULD APPLY.
IF SOMEONE WAS TO COME IN AND ASK FOR A REZONING
[00:20:01]
TO CRSC, THEN THEY WOULD ALSO HAVE TO FIT A CERTAIN AREA REQUIREMENT FOR ALLOWING FOR RESIDENTIAL, WHICH THE, UM, IS NOT GONNA BE HAPPENING AT TARGET RIDGE FORD OR THE TARGET DOWN IN, IN OAKS.SO, UM, IT APPLIES, BUT IT, IT IS REALLY A LIMITED APPLICATION TO THIS SITE.
ONLY IF WE, WE DON'T HAVE ANY STACK TOWN HOMES IN THE TOWNSHIP TODAY.
WHY IS THAT SOMETHING THAT WE WANT TO ADD TO OUR INVENTORY? IT IS, IT IS A, IT'S A NEWER LAND DEVELOPMENT TYPE, AT LEAST FOR THE, OBVIOUSLY IT'S A NEW LAND DEVELOPMENT TYPE FOR THIS TOWNSHIP.
WE'VE JUST NEVER BEEN ASKED TO GET TO THIS LEVEL BEFORE.
IT'S NOT, I DON'T THINK IT IS A, I DON'T THINK IT'S, IT IS, IT IS A LAND DEVELOPMENT TYPE OR A HOUSING TYPE THAT'S SO FAR OUT THERE.
IT SHOULD BE, YOU KNOW, WE SHOULD EXCLUDE IT.
IT, IT, IT IS GENERALLY JUST A DIFFERENT STYLE OF TOWNHOUSES THAT PEOPLE ARE EVOLVING TO.
AND YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT WORKFORCE, UH, PRICE POINTS ON THIS.
ARE YOU TARGETING SPECIFIC INCOME LEVELS FOR THIS PRICE POINT HOUSING? YES, WE ARE.
UM, DAVE, LANCE GRONER, WHO'S HERE FROM HIGH TOP COULD PROBABLY SPEAK A LITTLE MORE TO THE TYPE OF FIRE YOU'RE TARGETING AND THE PRICE POINT.
SIR, DO YOU SWEAR THE TESTIMONY? YES.
CAN I KIND YOUR NAME AGAIN? UH, DAVID LANCE GRUNER.
SO, UM, THE PRICE POINT HERE, DEPENDING ON UNIT AND KIND OF WHERE THEY'RE LOCATED, UPPER OR LOWER ARE GONNA BE HIGH THREES, LOW FORCE TO MID FOURS, UPPER FOUR, UM, IN TERMS OF A MI QUALIFICATION, WE HAVEN'T LIKE SET THAT IN STONE.
UM, BUT THESE, THESE ARE GONNA BE FOR MOST LIKELY FOLKS THAT ARE RETIRING, POTENTIALLY WORKING, YOU KNOW, WHO CAN'T AFFORD ONE OF THE, THE NEWER HOMES IN, IN THE, IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD.
UM, AND REALLY GONNA GIVE ACCESS AND ATTAINABILITY TO PEOPLE THAT DON'T HAVE IT RIGHT NOW AND CAN'T, CAN'T AFFORD TO BUY A NEW HOUSE ESSENTIALLY.
SO ARE THERE GONNA BE STEPS IN THESE HOMES STEPS UP TO THESE HOMES? THERE WILL BE ELEVATORS IN THE HOMES AND THERE WILL ALSO BE STEPS BOTH ELEVATORS IN THE, IN THE DOWNTOWN HOMES? YES.
THAT SEEMS REALLY EXPENSIVE THOUGH, PUTTING ELEVATORS IN EACH OF THESE UNITS.
SO THEY'RE RESIDENTIAL ELEVATORS, SO THEY'RE, IT IS NOT LIKE A CMU UH, SHAFT.
IT'S BASICALLY JUST A, A WOOD SHAFT WAY THAT YOU CAN PUT A RESIDENTIAL LIFT IN ESSENTIALLY.
YOU SAID HIGH THREES WAS, THAT'S THE LOWER, LOWER, LOWER UNIT MOST LIKELY THE, THE UPPER UNIT.
'CAUSE THERE MIGHT BE LIKE A, A DECK OR BALCONY ON THE, ON THE SECOND FLOOR.
THOSE, THOSE WILL BE IN LIKE THE MID TO HIGH FOURS.
I'M NOT SURE THAT REALLY QUALIFIES WORKFORCE THOUSAND, BUT IT'S CHEAPER.
I'M NOT SURE THAT QUITE QUALIFIES AS A WORKFORCE, BUT I GOT, YEAH.
AND I, I DON'T THINK THAT'S THE RIGHT TERM REALLY.
IT'S MORE SO ATTAINABLE, RIGHT? IT, IT IS JUST PRICED TO A POINT WHERE SOMEBODY CAN ACTUALLY AFFORD IT.
INSTEAD OF IT BEING A MILLION DOLLARS FOR A TOWN HOME, ESSENTIALLY WITH THE HEIGHT OF 45 FEET.
DO WE NEED A LADDER TRUCK FOR THAT OR IS THAT LOW ENOUGH THAT YOU WOULDN'T NEED THAT? WHAT'S THE SETBACK WITH CARS? UH, THERE'S IS THERE, IS THERE, UH, PARKING IN FRONT OF THEM? EVERYBODY'S PARKING IN FRONT.
UH, LET, LET, LET'S HAVE CHIEF IDENTIFY HIMSELF FIRST.
MIKE BRI, THE CHIEF OF, UH, FIRE AND EMERGENCY SERVICES FROM A PROVINCE HATCH.
SO TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION, I NEED A LITTLE BIT OF INFORMATION FIRST.
UM, WILL YOU HAVE ON STREET PARKING IN FRONT OF THE UNITS? NO ONS.
STREET PARKING IN FRONT OF THE UNITS.
SO IT WAS JUST A DRIVEWAY WITH, WITH GARAGE AND THEN STREET IN BETWEEN.
SO THE TOTAL SETBACK WOULD BE 20, 24 FEET PLUS 25 FEET.
WE CAN'T HAVE UNSORTED TESTIMONY FROM THE CROWD.
ALRIGHT, CHIEF, DO YOU STILL NEED A LITTLE MORE INFO TO ANSWER THE QUESTION? NO, NO, NO.
IF YOU CAN ANSWER, WELL THEN CAN WE GET YOU SWORN CHIEF? WE CERTAIN WE START AGAIN? YES, SIR.
UM, YES, WE CAN REACH OUT WITH GROUND LADDERS.
I CANNOT, WE CANNOT REACH THAT HEIGHT WITH A GROUND LADDER.
WE WOULD NEED, IT HAS TO BE DONE TO GET TO THE ROOF FOR GET THE GAP FLOORS.
UM, YEAH, WE COULD NOT GET UP THERE WITHOUT, WITHOUT LADDER TRUCK.
SO IN THE ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION, YES, A LADDER TRUCK WOULD BE NEEDED TO GET TO THE UPPER FLOORS AND THE ROOF FOR THOSE BUILDINGS.
AND DO YOU HAVE ONE, THE TOWNSHIP DOES NOT HAVE A LADDER TRUCK.
WE HAVE, UM, LADDER TRUCKS AROUND US.
RO FORD HAS A LADDER TRUCK TRAP HAS A 25 RULE LADDER TRUCK.
[00:25:02]
BUT, UM, AS FAR AS ATTACHED BATTERY ONE AT THIS POINT, NO.ARE THOSE AVAILABLE TO YOU, THE OTHER MUNICIPALITY TRUCKS? UH, YEAH, SURE.
FEW THROUGH WHICH WAY? UM, THERE'S JUST A, A DELAY IN THEM GETTING THERE.
OTHER, OTHER QUESTIONS FROM THE BOARD? I KNOW THERE WAS AT LEAST ONE PERSON WHO IDENTIFIED HIMSELF PREVIOUSLY.
SO, UH, WHY DON'T WE START WITH YOU AND THEN, UH, WE'LL SEE WHO ELSE HAS ANY QUESTIONS OR COMMENTS? I DON'T THINK SO.
UM, AGAIN, BILL DION HERE ON BEHALF OF UPPER PROVINCETOWN CENTER.
UM, I GUESS I WON'T REQUEST PARTY STATUS, BUT WE'RE HERE TO AT LEAST EXPRESS OUR CONCERNS WITH THE ORDINANCE AS IT'S CURRENTLY DRAFTED.
UM, A BRIEF BACKGROUND, IF BOARD CALLS, UM, ABOUT THREE MONTHS AGO, THIS BECAME KNOWN, THIS ORDINANCE BECAME KNOWN TO OUR CLIENTS OR MY CLIENTS.
UM, WE WROTE A LETTER TO THE CHAIRWOMAN AND SHE WAS KIND ENOUGH TO INVITE US TO A WORKSHOP MEETING WHERE THE TOWNSHIP WAS EVALUATING ITS COMPREHENSIVE PLAN, WHICH WE FOUND VERY INFORMATIVE AND VERY PRODUCTIVE AND APPRECIATED THE INVITE WE'VE ATTENDED, UM, THE MAY 20TH MEETING, THE JUNE 5TH MEETING, THE PLANNING COMMISSION.
AND I GUESS THE CONCERNS THAT I EXPRESSED WITH THE PLANNING COMMISSION ARE SIMILAR TO THE CONCERNS I'LL EXPRESS HERE TONIGHT IS IT'S NOT THE CONCEPT, IT'S NOT WHAT THE TENSION'S LOOKING TO DO.
WE UNDERSTAND IT, WE UNDERSTAND THAT CARTER'S GOING THROUGH SOME CHANGES AND THOSE CHANGES ARE GONNA NEED TO BE, HAVE INVOLVED CREATIVE PLANNING.
AND I THINK THE TOWNSHIP IS WELL INTO THAT PROCESS AND IS DOING IT.
UM, WE JUST ARE CONCERNED THAT THIS PARTICULAR PROPERTY IS BEING, UM, EVALUATED IN THE BUBBLE A LITTLE BIT, IF YOU WILL.
UM, SOME OF THE THINGS EVALUATE HOW SIR IN A BUBBLE IN
SO OBVIOUSLY THE BOARD IS AWARE THAT ONCE IT'S REZONED, THAT IS THE BIGGEST, UH, SIGNIFICANT STEP FROM A LAND DEVELOPMENT PROCESS.
ONCE IT'S PERMITTED, THEY ARE ABLE TO DO IT.
UM, AND AS WE'VE LOOKED AT THE, UM, ORDINANCE AND THE ORDINANCE REALLY BECAME AVAILABLE.
I MEAN, I KNOW IT'S BEEN AROUND AND THE DISCUSSION'S BEEN AROUND, BUT IT BECAME AVAILABLE AFTER THE MAY 20TH MEETING.
UM, THE COUNTY PLANNING COMMISSION JUST ISSUED THE REVIEW.
I THINK IT WAS, MIGHT HAVE BEEN DATED FRIDAY, BUT I THINK IT CAME OUT TODAY.
AND THOSE ARE THINGS THAT WE WOULD ASK, UM, THE TOWNSHIP TO STEP BACK AND LOOK AT.
SIMILAR TO THE PLANNING COMMISSION TO LOOK AT, I THINK THE COUNTY RAISES SOME INTERESTING QUESTIONS WITH REGARD TO, IS THIS THE BEST WAY TO REZONE THIS PROPERTY TO THE COMMUNITY? UM, SHOPPING CENTER, REGIONAL SHOPPING CENTER DISTRICT? MAYBE A REVISION TO THE IO THREE DISTRICT MAKES SENSE.
UM, BECAUSE OTHERWISE YOU'RE GONNA HAVE THIS BE KIND OF ITS OWN ISLAND, UM, AND REALLY GEARED TO JUST THIS PROPERTY.
UM, AND I DON'T THINK THAT THAT IS A PRUDENT WAY TO DEAL WITH INDIVIDUAL PROPERTIES FROM ITS ZONING STANDPOINT.
IT SHOULD BE LOOKED AT FROM A TOWNSHIP WIDE STANDPOINT.
UM, THERE'S NO DESIGN STANDARDS, THERE'S NO, SO THE, THE PRETTY PICTURES, HOW IT'S GONNA LOOK, HOW IT'S GONNA FEEL, ALL OF THOSE THINGS ARE CAN CHANGE.
THEY, THEY CAN ABSOLUTELY CHANGE.
THERE'S NO WAY TO ENFORCE THAT.
OBVIOUSLY YOU'D LIKE TO BELIEVE THE DEVELOPER'S GONNA DELIVER EXACTLY WHAT THEY PROMISED, AND I'M SURE THAT'S THEIR INTENTION.
BUT AS YOU GO TO MARKET, AS YOU LOOKED AT HOW YOU'RE GONNA BUILD IT, UM, OTHER FACTORS MIGHT COME INTO PLAY.
SO ONE OF THE SUGGESTIONS I HAD TO THE COUNTY, TO THE AIR PLANNING COMMISSION IS THIS STRIKES ME AS SOMETHING THAT WOULD MAKE A LOT OF SENSE TO BE A CONDITIONAL USE PROCESS, UM, WHERE A DEVELOPER HAS TO PRESENT THOSE THINGS.
THEY'RE MADE PART OF THE RECORD.
UM, YOU KNOW, THE, THE CHIEF WOULD MAKE COMMENTS ON IT, THEY'D GET MORE COMMENTS, UM, AND THEN YOU CAN MAKE A DECISION AND YOU COULD IMPOSE THOSE CONDITIONS.
UM, SOMETHING ELSE, AS WE LOOK AT THE ORDINANCE, THERE'S BEEN A LOT OF DISCUSSION ABOUT IMPERVIOUS COVERAGE.
UM, YOU KNOW, WHEN THERE'S BEEN THE OVERLAYS AND, AND WHAT IT, YOU KNOW, WHERE THEY'RE DEVELOPING.
AND YOU KNOW, IT'S LARGELY IMPERVIOUS TODAY, BUT WE NOTED THAT THE DISTRICT ALLOWS 75% IMPERVIOUS COVERAGE.
THAT'S SIGNIFICANT IN THE RESIDENTIAL DISTRICT.
YOUR OWN MIXED USE DISTRICT CAPS OUT OF 50%, YOUR CLUSTER DEVELOPMENT'S 50%.
SO 75% IN PURVIS COVERAGE IS, SEEMS EXORBITANT WHEN YOU'RE LOOKING AT IT AS A RESIDENTIAL CONTEXT.
THE ORDINANCE TODAY FOR THIS DISTRICT REQUIRES 65% LANDSCAPED AREAS.
SO BY BACKING, THAT'S 35% IMPERVIOUS COVERAGE.
SO THESE ARE THINGS THAT WE, WE WANT THE BEST PLAN.
BUT, AND, AND, AND LOOK, WE THINK THE THE USE OF THE PROPERTY HAS TO CHANGE.
OKAY? IT, IT, IT MAKES SENSE TO PLAN FOR THAT FUTURE, BUT WE JUST FEEL AS THOUGH IT IS HAPPENING TOO QUICKLY.
SOME OTHER THINGS THAT I'LL LOOK AT.
SO, UM, THE TRAFFIC IMPACT STUDY WAS SUBMITTED.
YOUR OWN CONSULTANT DID A REVIEW LETTER APRIL 5TH, THE LORD, SEVEN PAGES OF COMMENTS.
THE APPLICANT REVISED THEIR TRAFFIC IMPACT STUDY SUBMITTED ON MAY 3RD
[00:30:01]
OR MAY 30TH.THERE'S BEEN NO OTHER REVIEW ON THAT.
IT JUST, IT SEEMS AS THOUGH THIS IS GOING TOO FAST.
IT'S JUST, IT'S HAPPENING AND WE'RE ASKING ATTENTION TO STEP BACK AND EVALUATE A LITTLE BIT MORE.
CONSIDER THE COUNTY PLANNING COMMISSION'S COMMENTS.
I I DON'T KNOW IF THAT, YOU KNOW, IT'S INTRIGUING, YOU KNOW, THE DEFINITIONS, MAYBE THE DEFINITION SHOULD BE FINE TUNED A LITTLE BIT.
BUT WHEN YOU MAKE THIS DECISION, YOU MAKE IT AND IT'S PERMANENT.
UM, YOU KNOW, AS THE PROPERTY OWNER, I MEAN, OBVIOUSLY WE HAVE A SIGNIFICANT INVESTMENT THERE, AND WE ARE NOT HERE SAYING THAT SOMETHING SHOULD CHANGE ON THAT PROPERTY.
WE JUST WANT IT TO HAPPEN METHODICALLY, WELL THOUGHT OUT IN A VERY, UM, ORGANIZED PROCESS.
AND WE JUST FEEL THAT THIS IS HAPPENING A LITTLE TOO QUICKLY.
AND WE ASK THE ATTENTION TO PAUSE, TAKE QUESTIONS FROM, YOU KNOW, YOUR OWN CONSULTANTS, UM, WAIT TO SEE WHAT THE REVIEW LETTER COMES BACK IN.
I, I QUESTION THE IMPERVIOUS COVERAGE THAT IS CONCERNING TO US.
BUT WHY NOT CONSIDER THIS CONDITIONAL USE? YOU HAVE CONDITIONAL USE PROVISIONS IN YOUR ORDINANCE ALREADY.
IT JUST SEEMS LIKE A LOGICAL WAY TO MAKE SURE THAT WHEN THIS PROJECT COMES IN THE IMPERVIOUS COVERAGE, THERE'S BEEN SOME DISCUSSION ABOUT HOW THE PROPERTY'S GONNA BE MARKETED, WHAT IT'S GONNA LOOK LIKE.
WE JUST FEEL AS THOUGH THAT CONDITIONAL USE CONTEXT WILL ALLOW YOU TO HAVE MORE AUTHORITY AND TEETH TO MAKE SURE THEY DELIVER ON WHAT THEY PROMISED.
SO, UH, WE THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME.
WE APPRECIATE, UH, YOU INVITING US INTO THE MEETINGS AND WE HOPE THAT YOU CONSIDER THESE COMMENTS AND WE INTEND TO CONTINUE TO COME TO THE MEETINGS AND WORK WITH YOU.
AND LOOK, IF THERE'S A DATE THAT THIS ORDINANCE GETS ADOPTED, WE WON'T BE HERE TRYING TO TEAR IT DOWN.
WE'LL BE TRYING TO MAKE SURE IT'S THE BEST PROJECT THAT IT COMPLIMENTS OUR PROPERTY, THE CORRIDOR, OR FOR THE TOWNSHIP.
SO THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME AND YOUR CONSIDERATION.
UM, EVERYTHING, UH, THAT GENTLEMAN JUST SAID, SELF-SERVING.
THEY PUT THEIR, THAT WHOLE PROVIDENCE TOWN CENTER FOR SALE.
ALL THEY'RE TRYING TO DO IS DELAY.
MS. STEVENS, UH, I HOPE EVERYBODY HEARS THAT THEY'RE JUST TRYING TO DELAY IT SO THEY CAN SELL A PROPERTY.
THEY PAID $162 MILLION FOR THREE YEARS AGO FOR 200 MILLION.
SO PLEASE DISCOUNT EVERYTHING THEY SAID.
UM, SO UPPER PROVIDENCE, UM, I LOOK AT THIS TOWN AS A, AS A JEWEL REALLY IS, IT'S A JEWEL.
IT'S, IT'S GOT SOME GRADE ZONING, IT'S GOT A GREAT MIX OF RESIDENTIAL, COMMERCIAL, INDUSTRIAL, BUT JUST LIKE A JUUL IT NEEDS TO BE CLEANED AND IT NEEDS TO BE, UH, SHINED.
IT NEEDS TO BE REMOUNTED, ALRIGHT? TO JUST BEAUTIFY IT AGAIN.
WE HAVE A A, A PRIME PROPERTY FRONT, FRONT ROW SEAT THAT WAS SOLD.
THIS DEVELOPER PURCHASED IT, CAME UP WITH A PLAN.
AND WHEN THIS PLAN WAS RELEASED TO THE TOWNSHIP, GUESS WHO CALLED ME? THEY CALLED ME IN A PACK BECAUSE HEY, OH, THEY SENT, THAT'S HOW I FOUND OUT.
PEOPLE CALLED ME AND SAID, HEY, HERE'S THIS PLAN.
WHAT CAN YOU DO TO STOP THIS? OKAY.
SO I GOT THE PLAN AND I CAME DOWN TO THE PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING WITH MY PITCHFORK AND MY TORCH BECAUSE I DIDN'T KNOW WHAT WAS GOING ON.
AND I LISTENED TO, UH, THIS, UH, THE PROPOSED DEVELOPMENT PLAN.
AND LO AND BEHOLD, IT WAS A GOOD PLAN BECAUSE I, I WAS UNAWARE OF WHAT HAPPENED TO QUEST.
SO THROUGH THE PAST FEW MONTHS, WE FOUND OUT THAT STACK WHAT A STACKED TOWNHOUSE WAS COMMON, COMBINING THE, UH, COMMERCIAL AND THE RESIDENTIAL.
AND THAT'S WHAT, WHEN I TALK ABOUT THE JUUL, IT'S THE REDEVELOPMENT PIECE.
WE NEED TO REDEVELOPMENT THE COMMUNITY PROPERLY.
AND, AND, UM, WHEN I WAS A SUPERVISOR IN, IN 2015, AND SINCE THAT TIME, EVERYBODY IN THIS TOWN THINKS WE'RE BUILT OUT.
WE'RE NOT BUILT OUT, WE'RE NOT EVEN CLOSE.
WE'RE GONNA STICK SQUARE PEGS IN ROUND HOLES, AND THAT'S WHAT THIS IS.
AND WE'RE GONNA HAVE MORE AND MORE.
YOUR JOB'S GONNA BE MORE COMPLICATED.
AND THE PURPOSE OF A TEXT AMENDMENT IS UN UNLIKE WHAT THE PROVIDENCE TOWN CENTER PEOPLE SAY IS, YOU KNOW, LET'S HAVE A BIG TOWNSHIP WIDE THING.
YOU LOSE ALL CONTROL WITH A TOWNSHIP WIDE PLAN.
A TEXT AMENDMENT MAKES IT A MICRO, UH, A MICRO ZONING TO LIMIT OTHER EXPOSURES.
SO ALL TEXT AMENDMENTS, WE'VE DONE 'EM MANY, MANY TIMES.
THEY'RE DESIGNED TO KEEP THINGS FROM GOING OUT OF CONTROL.
SO THAT'S THE PURPOSE OF A TEXT AMENDMENT.
UM, WHAT ELSE DO WE GOT HERE? I WANNA SHOW YOU A PHOTO.
[00:35:01]
WOULD YOU LIKE ME TO PRESENT ONE TO THE UH, YES PLEASE.AND IT MAYBE SOME OF YOU SHOULD RECOGNIZE WHAT THIS IS.
UM, SOME OF YOU, SOME OF THE SUPERVISORS HAVEN'T LIVED HERE VERY LONG.
WE'LL MARK THAT, UM, UH, DIAGNOSE ONE.
SO ANYBODY KNOW WHAT THIS IS? I SHOULD QUESTION PLEASE.
THIS IS, THIS IS AN OLD KMART BUILDING IN LOWER PROVIDENCE ON TOWNSHIP, ON, UH, RIDGE PIKE.
THAT IS A SHOPPING CENTER IN EAGLEVILLE.
AND YOU SEE THAT ONE CAR THERE IN A PARKING LOT THAT'S LIKE MAYBE THE ONLY EMPLOYEE TO THAT BIG SHOPPING CENTER THAT'S A DEAD CENTER'S DEAD.
AND THAT ENTIRE PIKE STRETCH IS DEAD.
AND THIS TOWN CAN'T ALLOW THAT.
OTHER TOWNS AROUND US HAVE SIMILAR THINGS, BUT NOT THE JEWEL OF THE PROVINCE IS THE JEWEL BECAUSE WE'VE TAKEN PROACTIVE STANCES TO MAKE SURE THAT IT REMAINS, THAT IF WE DON'T ALLOW THIS, ALRIGHT, HIS, HIS, BECAUSE DEVELOPERS HAVE A A TIMELINE, HIS TIMELINE'S GONNA RUN OUT.
THE NEXT DEVELOPER'S GONNA COME IN AND COME IN FOR THE EXACT SAME THING.
WHAT LOWER PROVIDENCE SHOULD HAVE DONE IS CONTACT THE OWNER AND WORK, UH, SOME KIND OF A SOLUTION.
MAYBE THEY NEED TO LOOK AT THE ZONING, COME UP WITH A BETTER PLAN.
AND AGAIN, THAT'S MY POINT HERE.
THERE'S A PLAN ON THE TABLE AND I THINK IT'S A GOOD PLAN.
UM, WE HAVE OTHER AREAS OF THE TOWNSHIP, WE'RE GONNA RUN INTO THIS.
SO I'M JUST LETTING YOU KNOW THAT, UM, EACH INDIVIDUAL AREA HAS ITS OWN MICRO ECONOMY.
UH, MAIN STREET, I'LL MENTIONED MAIN STREET UP BY THE, UM, THE POOL PLACE.
BRIDGE, RIGHT? WE'VE TALKED ABOUT THIS.
MS. CAL, THAT AREA UP THERE NEEDS FIXING, RIGHT? IT, AND IT DOESN'T, IT MAY NOT NEED A TOWN.
WHAT, WHAT FITS DOWN HERE MAY NOT FIT UP ON RIDGE PIPES.
AND THAT'S WHY YOU HAVE THE SAY UP THERE.
YOU MIGHT NEED A VILLAGE COMMERCIAL OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT.
AND AGAIN, THAT HAS A MICRO ECONOMY DOWN THERE.
SO THE, THE PLAN HERE IS TO, UM, COMBINE SOME HOMES.
AND YOU'RE RIGHT, MR. STARLING, IT'S NOT WORKFORCE HOUSING, IT'S JUST CHEAPER HOUSING.
AND CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG, ARE THESE TWO BEDROOMS? YES, THEY'RE ALL TWO BEDROOMS. THEY'RE NOT FOUR BEDROOM HOMES.
THEY'RE NOT EVEN THREE BEDROOM TOWN HOMES, WHICH HAS, SO THE TWO BEDROOM HOME DID A LOT OF RESEARCH ON STACK TOWNHOUSE.
THEY AFFECT THE SCHOOLS LESS AND THEY TAKE LESS REAL ESTATE.
I WOULD LOVE FOR ONE OF MY KIDS TO BUY ONE TO MOVE OUT
UM, I DO HAVE A QUESTION, UM, UH, FOR MR. UH, FOR CHIEF RIS.
UM, THE QUESTION CAME UP FROM MS. STEVENS ABOUT THE, UM, THE FIRE TRUCKS.
DO YOU HAVE ANY DOUBT IN YOUR MIND THAT IF THERE'S A FIRE AT ONE OF THESE BUILDINGS, THAT THE FIRE DEPARTMENT WOULD BE ABLE TO RESPOND QUICKLY AND EFFICIENTLY TO SUPPRESS SUCH FIRE? SURE.
WE'RE, WE'RE RIGHT UP THE STREET.
UM, THERE ARE MORE THAN THREE IN A ROWS.
UM, WHICH IS, WHICH IS ONE OF THE BEST WAYS TO STOP AND PREVENT LIFE SAFETY OR NOT PREVENT LIFE SAFETY, BUT FOR LIFE SAFETY.
UM, ABSOLUTELY, UH, IT'S THE LATTER CRITICAL FOR FIREFIGHTING.
NOW, PUTTING WATER ON THE FIRE IS CRITICAL FOR FIREFIGHTING.
BUT AN ANSWER TO THE QUESTION, CAN WE GET TO THE TOP WITHOUT A LADDER TRUCK? NO, WE CANNOT.
SO, YES, AND ANSWER YOUR QUESTION, IT WOULD BE ACCURATE TO SAY THAT THE TOWNSHIP SOLD ITS LAST FIRE TRUCK FOR FUTURE PLANS AND FUTURE EXPANSIONS OF THE FIRE DEPARTMENT IN THE COMING YEARS.
IS THAT ACCURATE? THAT'S IN MY OPINION.
SO IT'S THE, SO WE DO HAVE TALL BUILDINGS TALLER THAN THE 45 FEET HERE THAT'S BEING PROPOSED, RIGHT? THAT'S CORRECT.
AND UH, ONE OTHER THING I BELIEVE MS. KELSEY, UM, WHEN WE CHANGED THE ZONING AROUND THE PROVIDENCE TOWN CENTER, WHICH I MAY ADD, WHEN WE CHANGED THE ZONING, MS. STEVENS AND, AND, UM, MR. STARLING, WE CHANGED THAT ZONING.
PART OF IT WAS TO BENEFIT THE PROVIDENCE TOWN CENTER BECAUSE IT WAS LIKE TUMBLEWEED UP THERE.
WE'VE ALL LIVED HERE, RIGHT? THE PROVIDENCE TOWN CENTER NEEDED SOME HELP.
SO WE DID THAT PARTIALLY TO HELP THAT CENTER, WHICH HELPS THE COMMUNITY.
SO NOW THEY'RE COMING IN SAYING, OH, DON'T DO THIS ONLY 'CAUSE THEY WANNA SELL IT AND GET OUT.
WELL, I DON'T THINK WE SHOULD BE TOO CONCERNED ABOUT MOTIVATIONS.
[00:40:01]
ORDINANCE AND HOW SENSE IT MAKES OR DOESN'T MAKE.SO AGAIN, UM, I, I FULLY, AGAIN, I, I CAME TO THE PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING WITH MY PITCHFORK AND MY TORCH.
AND, UH, OVER THE PAST SEVERAL MONTHS, I FOUND THAT THIS PLAN FITS THE TOWNSHIP.
IT'S AN IMPROVEMENT TO THE TOWNSHIP, AND I THINK IT'S THE BEST THING THAT BEST OPTION WE HAVE FOR THAT PIECE OF HAND.
DOES ANYBODY ELSE HAVE ANY QUESTIONS OR COMMENTS? LET, I DON'T WANT TO GET INTO THE REBUTTING THE OTHER PERSON WHO MADE A COMMENT THING.
WELL, I THINK I GET AN OPPORTUNITY TO SAY SOMETHING.
LET'S SEE WHERE WE ARE AT THE END ON THAT.
WHO ELSE HAD ANY QUESTIONS OR COMMENTS? ANYBODY? BILL FELTON.
UM, YEAH, I DON'T THINK ANYBODY'S CHALLENGING WHETHER THE THE PLAN IS GOOD OR NOT.
I I THINK WHAT THE GENTLEMAN WAS TALKING ABOUT WAS THE PROCESS AND THE SPEED OF THE PROCESS.
I THINK THAT WAS PRETTY SIMPLE.
I I'M A LITTLE CONFUSED THOUGH ABOUT, YOU KNOW, WHERE THE CART AND THE HORSE ARE ON THIS PROJECT.
YOU KNOW, I KNOW YOU GUYS HAVE BEEN TO THE PLANNING COMMISSION.
IS THE PLAN APPROVED IF THE ZONING HAS CHANGED OR DOES THE PLAN STILL HAVE TO GO? HE HAS NOT SUBMITTED A TE SKETCH PLAN.
AT THIS POINT, THEY ARE ONLY ASKING FOR A CHANGE TO THE ZONING TEXT OF CRSC AND A ZONING MAP AMENDMENT.
SO THE, THE PLAN THAT'S BEEN PRESENTED WAS JUST TO HELP UNDERSTAND AND GUIDE THE ZONING CHANGE? CORRECT.
DID, DID ANYONE ELSE HAVE THEIR HAND UP THAT I MISSED? I, HI SUSAN DENBY 1 3 5 BENNINGTON ROAD.
I HEAR SUSAN DENBY, D-E-N-B-Y 1 3 5 BENNINGTON ROAD.
UM, I, I HAVEN'T, I HAVE TO AGREE WITH THE FIRST GENTLEMAN ON THE SPEED OF THIS PROCESS.
UM, I FELT THE SAME WAY ABOUT PARKHOUSE AND I, I REALLY, I DON'T EVEN KNOW HOW THE PLANNING COMMISSION COULD APPROVE IT WITHOUT EVEN HAVING INPUT FROM, FROM YOUR, YOUR FOLKS.
LIKE IT CAN LADDER GET UP THERE AND ASK THESE QUESTIONS.
AND I WOULD TOO SAY SLOW DOWN THE PROCESS.
WHY DOES IT HAVE TO BE SO FAST? UM, I I'M NOT HAPPY THAT I HEAR A 75% IMPERVIOUS GROUND COVER OR IMPERVIOUS, UM, GROUND.
AND YOU HAVE TO THINK ABOUT FLOODING.
I MEAN THAT THIS THERE, ONCE IT'S CONCRETE, IT'S, IT'S IT'S CONCRETE.
SO I WOULD ASK THAT YOU PLEASE CONSIDER THE TEXT AMENDMENTS AND HOW THEY DO IMPACT OTHER OTHERS, OTHERWISE IT LIKE, HOW, AS A LAY PERSON HERE, HOW IS THAT NOT SPOT ZONING? UH, I FOUND THE SAME PROCESS FOR PARKHOUSE AND IT IS VERY CONFUSING AS WELL.
SO IF, IF WE COULD PLEASE UNDERSTAND THE PROCESS BETTER, I, I'D APPRECIATE IT.
UM, MR. DION, IF YOU HAVE SOME COMMENTS ABOUT THE ORDINANCE AND WITHOUT GETTING INTO A, WHAT MR. VAGNOZZI SAID THAT MAYBE SOUNDED MEAN.
UH, WE'RE REALLY JUST HERE ABOUT THE ORDINANCE.
WELL, I GUESS THE, I GUESS WE'RE, YOU KNOW, THIS BOARD AUTHORIZED THE ORDINANCE ON MAY 20TH, SO THAT'S WHEN IT BECAME PUBLIC.
THE PLANNING COMMISSION ISSUED THE REVIEW TODAY.
AND I GUESS WE JUST CANNOT BELIEVE THE URGENCY TO ADOPT THIS.
UM, SO THAT'S, THAT IS OUR CONCERN.
SO LOOK, GUESS WHATEVER MOTIVATIONS YOU WANT ON MY CLIENTS, DO WHATEVER YOU WANT.
BUT I GUESS SOME OF THE QUESTIONS THAT I'M ASKING, EVEN THE COUNTY PLANNING COMMISSION IS ASKING OR SOME OF THESE DEFINITIONS, RIGHT? HOW DO YOU WANT TO DO THIS? I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY THIS TOWN SHOULD SAY WHATEVER I IONS ARE, WE ALL SHOULD WANT THE BEST ORDINANCE.
SO, UM, YOU KNOW, TO HAVE IT ADVERTISED AND BE ON HERE IN LESS THAN 30 DAYS JUST SEEMS TO BE VERY FAST AND WITHOUT INPUT FROM YOUR, YOU KNOW, YOUR OTHER CONSULTANTS.
I, IT JUST, IT'S, UM, IT'S SURPRISING TO US AND A LITTLE SCARY AND DISAPPOINTING TO BE PERFECTLY HONEST WITH YOU.
WE THINK SOMETHING HAS TO CHANGE HERE.
WE BELIEVE THAT, AND LOOK, THIS PROJECT, WE'RE NOT EVEN NECESSARILY AGAINST THE CONCEPT OF WE THINK IT LOOKS GOOD AND IT'S PROBABLY A GOOD REUSE OF THIS PROPERTY, BUT MAN, IF YOU DON'T SET THE RIGHT GUIDELINES UP FRONT, UM, THEN DO THEY SELL IT? DOES IT NOT WORK THROUGH SOMEONE ELSE COMES ALONG? THE PICTURES AREN'T AS PRETTY.
[00:45:01]
USE PROCESS, I DON'T KNOW WHY THAT IS NOT GETTING SOME SERIOUS CONSIDERATION FOR HOW TO MANAGE THIS AND MAKE SURE YOU GET WHAT YOU BELIEVED YOU WERE GOING TO GET.I MADE, I KNOW I MADE THIS, THE IMPIOUS COVERAGE.
I'M JUST FLOORED THAT YOU'RE GONNA ALLOW 75%, WELL, YOU, YOU WERE VERY CLEAR ABOUT THAT.
LET'S, LET'S, AND I'M GONNA GIVE, UH, ALLISON A CHANCE TO RESPOND TO SOME OF THE THICK POINTS THAT WERE RAISED.
ONE THING THAT I WANNA MAKE SURE EVERYBODY UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NO URGENCY, BUT YOU HAVE NO TIME CLOCK.
YOU DON'T HAVE TO VOTE ON THIS TONIGHT.
IT WAS SIMPLY SCHEDULED FOR A HEARING TONIGHT.
WE'VE HAD OTHERS HEARINGS THAT HAVE SAT DORMANT FOR MONTHS, MAYBE A YEAR ONE THAT I'M THINKING OF.
SO, SO IT, IT, IT'S, IT'S NOT THAT YOU RUSHED ANYTHING THROUGH.
MOST MUNICIPAL ORDINANCES DO HAVE A PROCESS FOR REQUESTING A ZONING ORDINANCE CHANGE.
AND IT JUST GETS LISTED IN THE USUAL PROCESS.
IT GOES TO THE PLANNING COMMISSION AND THEN IT GOES TO YOU.
IT'S NOT A MATTER OF RUSHING IT.
SO IF ANYBODY HAS ANY CONCERNS ABOUT ANY OF THE POINTS RAISED OR OR OTHER CONCERNS THAT YOU HAVE, THE HEARING WILL JUST BE HELD OPEN.
THERE'S NO, THERE'S NO URGENCY TO DOING IT.
IF YOU FEEL THAT THERE ARE CHANGES THAT HAVE TO HAPPEN, NOT THAT I'M ADVOCATING FOR ANY, IT'S COMPLETELY UP TO YOU.
UH, THE ONLY OTHER THING THAT I WOULD POINT OUT IS THE REQUEST TO MAKE THINGS A CONDITIONAL USE.
UM, YOUR ORDINANCE HAVE, HAS USES THAT ARE PERMITTED BY RIGHT USES THAT ARE PROHIBITED.
AND THEN IN THE MIDDLE YOU'VE GOT CONDITIONAL USES.
YOU COULD MAKE EVERYTHING CONDITIONAL USE, BUT YOU'D HAVE A LOT OF CONDITIONAL USE SERIES.
SO THE, THE ANSWER TO THE QUESTION REALLY IS, IS DO WE FEEL THAT THIS IS A TYPE OF USE THAT WOULD REQUIRE PROOF OF OTHER SPECIAL UNUSUAL FACTORS THAT THE AVERAGE PERSON HAS TO DO? SO I, I WOULD SAY THAT THAT'S PROBABLY WHY I WAS DRAFTED THAT WAY.
I, YOU KNOW, I WASN'T THE DRAFTER OF IT, I WAS THE REVIEWER OF IT AS JEFF, JEFF AND I BOTH WERE.
UM, BUT IT'S, I WOULDN'T CALL IT RECKLESS NOT TO MAKE EVERYTHING A CONDITIONAL USE, BUT IF YOU HAVE A LEGITIMATE CONCERN IN THAT REGARD, THAT CAN HAPPEN.
SO I'M JUST, I'M JUST TRYING TO MAKE SURE YOU UNDERSTAND THAT, UM, THERE, THAT THERE WAS NOTHING INTENDED AS AN URGENCY ABOUT THE FACT THAT IT WAS SCHEDULED IN FRONT OF THE PLANNING COMMISSION AND THEN BROUGHT TO YOU FOR CONSIDERATION.
SO IF YOU HAVE ANY CONCERNS, THE HEARING WILL BE HELD OPEN UNTIL THOSE ARE ADDRESSED.
SO COMPLETELY UP TO YOUR COMFORT LEVEL.
YOU HAVE THE, THE, THE LEGITIMACY OF THE ORDINANCE WAS NOT ATTACKED AND NOBODY'S SAYING THE ORDINANCE IS AN ILLEGAL ORDINANCE AND THEREFORE THERE IS NO PROCESS RUNNING AGAINST YOU.
THIS IS A COMPLETELY VOLUNTARY ORDINANCE CHANGE IF, IF YOU WANT TO MAKE THAT CHANGE.
UM, ALLISON, DID YOU HAVE ANY RESPONSE TO ANY OF THE POINTS THAT WERE RAISED BY THE OTHERS? SURE, ABSOLUTELY.
SO, UM, TO YOUR POINT ABOUT THE CONDITIONAL USE, I MEAN THIS, THIS BOARD IN MOST CASES, AND, YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE A THREE STEP PROCESS WITH TENNIS SKETCH WEEK FIRST, AND THAT'S TYPICALLY WHERE, UM, WE DEAL WITH A LOT OF THE ISSUES THAT WOULD OTHERWISE BE DEALT WITH THROUGH, UM, CONDITIONAL USE.
BUT I WOULD ALSO NOTE THAT THE USES THAT YOU'RE PROPOS THAT WOULD ARE PROPOSED ON THE SITE, THAT IF YOU PASS THIS ORDINANCE WOULD BE APPROVED.
I DON'T THINK ANY OF THEM ARE SOMETHING THAT'S UNUSUAL THAT YOU HAVEN'T, YOU KNOW, OTHERWISE SEEN.
WE'RE TALKING ABOUT TRADITIONAL COMMERCIAL USES AND TRADITIONAL RESIDENTIAL USES.
WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT, UM, SOMETHING THAT WOULD BE AN INDUSTRIAL USE WHERE THERE MIGHT BE NOXIOUS CHEMICALS, ODORS, YOU KNOW, SOUND THINGS THAT YOU MIGHT WANT TO ADDRESS FURTHER THROUGH A HEARING PROCESS.
UH, BUT TO ALSO ADDRESS THE COMMENTS ABOUT THE COUNTY REVIEW LETTER, FIRST OF ALL, I DO WANNA NOTE THAT WE FILED A FORMAL PETITION TO AMEND THE ZONING ORDINANCE BACK IN APRIL.
SO AS OF THAT TIME, OUR PROPOSED LANGUAGE WAS AVAILABLE TO THE GENERAL PUBLIC THROUGH A RIGHT TO NO REQUEST.
SO, UM, I THINK IT IS A BIT DISINGENUOUS TO, TO INDICATE THAT NOTHING WAS AVAILABLE FOR PUBLIC REVIEW UNTIL MAY 20TH.
I DON'T BELIEVE THAT'S ACCURATE.
UM, IN TERMS OF THE COUNTY PLANNING REVIEW LETTER, I DID WANT TO NOTE, UM, INTO THE RECORD THAT THE MONTGOMERY COUNTY PLANNING COMMISSION SPECIFICALLY STATES THAT THEY SUPPORT THE PROPOSED TECH TAX AMENDMENTS AND THEY GENERALLY FIND THIS TO BE CONSISTENT WITH THE COMP PLAN OF BOTH THE TOWNSHIP AND COUNTY.
UM, AND IN TERMS OF THE THREE ZONING COMMENTS IN HERE, UM, THE FIRST ONE DOES REFERENCE THE IO THREE DISTRICT.
WHEN WE FIRST APPROACHED THE TOWNSHIP ABOUT THIS, WE DID ACTUALLY EXPLORE WE IO THREE DISTRICT AND BASED ON STAFF FEEDBACK AND REVIEW, WE ACTUALLY WENT IN THE DIRECTION OF WHAT WE'RE PROPOSING TONIGHT, UM, RATHER THAN THE I OH THREE DISTRICT BASED ON THAT FEEDBACK.
THE SECOND COMMENT RELATES TO THE DEFINITION OF RESTAURANT FAST CASUAL, WHICH WE, UM, HAVE TALKED BEFORE ABOUT, YOU KNOW, WHAT THAT IS.
AND TRYING TO, UM, ALLOW SOME DISCRETION FOR YOU
[00:50:01]
WHEN YOU'RE APPROVING THE USE AND THE ZONING OFFICER IN TERMS OF DETERMINING WHAT FITS INTO THAT DEFINITION.THAT WAS SOMEWHAT, UH, DELIBERATE IN THE CONTEXT OF ALL THE CONVERSATIONS WE'VE HAD.
AND THE THIRD COMMENT RELATES TO, UM, THE, THE HEIGHT LIMIT.
AND THEIR COMMENT IS ACTUALLY, IF THIS WERE A REGIONAL SHOPPING CENTER, WE WOULD NOT EVEN BE NEED TO REQUEST IT BECAUSE THE REGIONAL SHOPPING CENTER IS ALLOWED TO BE 65 FEET IN HEIGHT, WHICH WE'RE NOT PROPOSING TO DO HERE.
SO, UM, THOSE ARE THE THREE, THOSE ARE THE THREE COMMENTS THAT RELATE SPECIFICALLY TO THE ZONING IN THE COMMENT IN THE, IN THE COUNTY LETTER, WHICH WE DID CONSIDER AS PART OF THE PROCESS.
YEAH, WITH THE RETAIL BUILDINGS, IT'S WITH THE RESIDENTIAL BUILDINGS AND THOSE UNDERSTOOD.
I HAVE A, OH, I'M SORRY, I'M, I CLOSE UP.
IS THAT SOMETHING, WOULD YOU BE WILLING TO CONSIDER THE, AN ORDINANCE, UH, AMENDMENT TO GET THE RESIDENTIAL HEIGHT LOWER? YEAH, THAT'S, I MEAN, THAT'S SOMETHING THAT WOULD BE POSSIBLE BECAUSE WE'RE NOT PROPOSING HIGHER THAN 45 FEET, SO THAT WOULD NOT BE AN ISSUE.
AND HOW MANY UNITS TOTAL NOW ARE WE TALKING ABOUT? I THOUGHT IT WAS 60 SOME IS WHAT WE ORIGINALLY, SO THE, THE STACKED TOWN HOMES ARE, IT'S A, IT IS, IT IS A TWO UNITS IN A BUILDING.
SO I DID WANT TO CLARIFY THAT.
SO ALL OF THE MATERIALS THAT WE SUBMITTED, UM, DO ADDRESS THE FACT THAT THE INDIVIDUAL DWELLING UNITS ARE 122 CURRENTLY, THEY WERE PREVIOUSLY MORE THAN THAT.
SO COMMUNITY IMPACT STATEMENT, PHYSICAL IMPACT STATEMENT, UH, TRAFFIC ANALYSIS, ALL DUE REFERENCE, THOSE INDIVIDUAL DWELLING UNITS.
I THINK IT'S BEEN A AND I REALIZE THAT THAT IS SOMEWHAT CONFUSING THE WAY IT HAS BEEN DESCRIBED.
UM, YEAH, BECAUSE IT'S UP AND DOWN AND IT'S TOO, AND I DID WANNA CLARIFY THAT TONIGHT BECAUSE I KNEW IT WAS NOT AS CLEAR AS IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN.
IS THE GARAGES UNDERNEATH THE STACKS? YEAH, THE THE GARAGES ARE UNDER YES.
I HAVE A BUNCH OF OTHER QUESTIONS.
THE CONDITIONAL USE, WHAT WOULD WE HAVE GAINED BY GOING DOWN THAT ROAD THAT WE'RE NOT DOING NOW FROM CONDITIONAL USE? WHAT FINDING, SEEING A 3D MODEL OR WHAT, WHAT EXTRA INFORMATION WOULD WE HAVE GOTTEN? I MEAN, IF YOU'RE, IF YOU'RE DOING CONDITIONAL USE, IT REQUIRES A HEARING, BUT WE WOULD BE PRESENTING THE SAME INFORMATION THAT WILL BE PRESENTING TO YOU ANYWAY IN TERMS OF WHAT THINGS LOOK LIKE, WHAT WE'RE PROPOSING WHEN WE GET TO TENTATIVE.
YEAH, WHEN YOU GET TO TENTATIVE, I, I MEAN THE, THE ONE CONDITIONAL USE I'VE DONE IN THIS TOWNSHIP FOR A DIFFERENT PROJECT, WE DID TENTATIVE AND CONDITIONAL USE CONCURRENTLY BECAUSE THEY'RE ESSENTIALLY THE SAME PLAN.
AND THEN THE O THREE, WHAT, WHAT IS IT THAT YOU SWITCHED OVER TO THIS INSTEAD OF THE IO THREE? WHY MS. COUNSEL? CAN I SPEAK TO THAT? BECAUSE, OH YEAH, THAT WAS MY SUGGESTION, PLEASE.
WELL, WHEN WE, WHEN SHE FIRST CAME IN, WHEN THEY FIRST CAME IN, LET'S GET JEFF SCHWAN.
OH, SWEAR YOU SPOKE THAT THE TESTIMONY BE THE TRUTHFUL NOTHING BUT THE TRUE SELF.
UM, WHEN THEY FIRST CAME IN WITH THIS PROJECT, WE OBVIOUSLY, ONE OF THE CONVERSATIONS WAS WHAT'S THEIR PATH FORWARD? THEY HAD TALKED ABOUT CHANGING IO THREE AND USING THE RETAIL COMPONENT OF IO THREE FOR THAT.
IT WAS MY, MY UNDERSTANDING, MY THEORY AT THE TIME, MY BELIEF AT THE TIME THAT I THREE WAS SO WRITTEN FOR PROVINCETOWN CENTER AND WITH THE SETBACKS AND WITH THE DIMENSIONAL REQUIREMENTS AND THE USE REQUIREMENTS IN I THREE THAT IT WOULD JUST ADD A LAYER OF CONFUSION TO THE ORDINANCE.
CRSC IS, IS AN ANTIQUATED ORDINANCE IN OUR ZONING, AS WE MENTIONED AT, AT THE COMPREHENSIVE PLAN MEETING.
THERE'S A LOT OF ORDINANCES IN OUR ZONING HERE IN OUR ZONING BOOK THAT THEY'RE LITTLE ANTIQUATED.
SO I LOOKED AT THIS AS AN OPPORTUNITY TO UPDATE AND TO MODERNIZE C-R-S-C-A LITTLE BIT.
IT STILL NEEDS SOME CHANGES BECAUSE CRS C'S REALLY DIVIDED INTO TWO SORT OF TWO CATEGORIES.
THERE'S A, A SMALLER SHOPPING CENTER, WHICH THIS QUALIFIES UNDER, OR A LARGER SHOPPING CENTER, WHICH I THINK IS 650,000 SQUARE FEET OF RETAIL SPACE.
I, I DON'T HAVE THE NUMBER IN FRONT OF ME, BUT, UM, IT'S AN EXTREMELY LARGE SHOPPING CENTER THAT, THAT'S WHERE THE 65 FEET COMES IN.
THAT'S WHERE SOME OF THE OTHER LARGER PARKING REQUIREMENTS AND THINGS LIKE THAT COME IN.
WE'RE DEALING WITH THE SMALLER SHOPPING CENTERS AND AS I SAID AT THE COMPREHENSIVE PLAN MEETING, IF WE SEE ANY OTHER RETAIL COME INTO THIS TOWNSHIP, IT'S GONNA BE THE SMALLER SHOPPING CENTER.
SO I LOOKED AT THIS AS AN OPPORTUNITY TO HAVE A PROFESSIONAL UPDATE THAT FOR US ON THEIR DIME, NOT ON OUR DIME.
AND WILL WE HAVE TO MOVE FORWARD WITH OTHER CHANGES TO CRSC AND THE OTHER HALF OF THAT WITH THE LARGER SHOPPING CENTER? CERTAINLY.
AND THAT'S GOING TO BE PART OF THE COMPREHENSIVE PLAN AND WE'LL TALK ABOUT THAT WHEN WE GET TO THAT.
BUT THAT IS WHY I MOVED IT TO, UM, CRSA.
JEFF, IF WE WERE TO HOLD THIS UP A MONTH, TAKE ANOTHER LOOK AT THIS ORDINANCE, THEN COULD YOU COME BACK AND, AND YOU DESCRIBE TO US EXACTLY WHAT COULD BE BUILT HERE? I MEAN, I, I, THIS REALLY IS SERIOUS TO ME THAT I, THAT I THOUGHT WE WERE TALKING ABOUT 60 SOME TOWNHOUSES AND NOW WITH THIS STACK
[00:55:01]
THAT'S REALLY 120, THAT IS A HUGE DIFFERENCE.I MEAN, WE, I KNOW WHEN WE'RE APPROVING HUNDREDS, IT DOESN'T SEEM LIKE THAT MANY, BUT THAT, THAT IS, THAT IS AN ADDITIONAL BURDEN.
I WOULD LIKE TO JUST UNDERSTAND EXACTLY WHAT THIS ORDINANCE DESCRIBES AND WHAT IT'S GONNA ALLOW THEM TO BUILD THERE.
AND IF I MAY JUST SAY, IF I HAD ASKED BIZARRO A MINUTE AGO, IF SHE WAS AGREEABLE TO MODIFYING, UM, THE ORDINANCE, UH, REGARDING HEIGHT FOR RESIDENTIAL, UM, THAT PUTS US BACK AROUND THE HORN ON TO THE PLANNING COMMISSIONS FOR THE REVIEW OF A REVISION TO THE ORDINANCE.
SO IT WOULD REQUIRE A TRIP BACK JUST EVEN TO MAKE THE, YOU KNOW, THAT CHANGE TO THE ORDINANCE.
SO ANY OTHER CHANGES COULD BE ADDRESSED AT THAT TIME.
IF YOU'RE, IF THAT'S WHAT YOU WANT TO DO.
AGAIN, IF YOU'RE COMFORTABLE, THE MAJORITY IS COMFORTABLE TONIGHT, YOU CAN DO THAT, OR THAT'S TOTALLY YOUR PLEASURE.
SO WHAT YOU'RE SAYING IS BECAUSE OF THE HEIGHT DIFFERENCE'S GOING TO GO BACK TO PLANNING ANYWAY.
THE IMPERVIOUS SURFACE, WHAT, WHAT IS IT NOW? I I GET THAT IT'S CHANGING TO 75%, BUT WHAT IS IT NOW? I I LOOKED INTO THAT.
THERE IS NO SPECIFIC IMPERVIOUS COVERAGE REQUIREMENTS IN ANY OF OUR RESIDENTIAL DISTRICTS, ANY OF OUR PURE RESIDENTIAL DISTRICTS WITHIN IO ONE, WHICH IS WHAT THIS IS, THERE IS A BUILDING COVERAGE REQUIREMENT AND THERE IS A, UM, UM, BUT THERE'S NOT A SPECIFIC IMPERVIOUS COVERAGE LIMITATION.
SO RIGHT NOW IT ALLOWS 10% OF THE LOT TO BE BUILDING COVERAGE, BUT THEN YOU CAN PAVE EVERYTHING.
THERE IS SOME REQUIREMENTS FOR PARKING AND THINGS LIKE THAT, THAT ARE PART OF IT, THAT YOU'RE GONNA GET SOME GREEN SPACE.
BUT THERE'S NOT, LIKE IN SOME DISTRICTS WE TALK ABOUT A 65% IMPERVIOUS COVERAGE CAP.
I, I DON'T SEE THAT IN THIS, IN THIS ORDINANCE.
'CAUSE BILL YOU HAD MADE A COMMENT THAT YOU MIGHT, 'CAUSE IT GAVE US MORE.
YEAH, THAT'S WHAT THEY, THEY HAD PROMISED ORIGINALLY TO GIVE BACK MORE IMPERIOUS SURFACE THAN WE HAVE TODAY BY TAKING UP THE PARKING LOT AND TAKEN LESS SPACE WITH PAVED THAN THAT BUILDING SURFACE.
SO I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE EXACT PERCENTAGES WERE.
SO DID THAT HAPPEN? DOES IT, DOES IT SOUND, YEAH, I MEAN, IF WE CAN ANSWER THAT, THAT WAS THE OTHER POINT I WANTED TO CLARIFY THAT WE HAD HADN'T GONE TO, 'CAUSE WE GOT TO THE OTHER COUNTY LETTER, BUT, UM, I WOULD WANT TO SWEAR IN HERB SCHULTZ AND JUST TO CLARIFY, AND I'LL HAVE HIM PROVIDE MORE, MORE OF AN EXPLANATION, BUT THE RESIDENTIAL USE GROUP IS A SUBSET OF THE OVERALL DISTRICT.
SO WE HAVE SUBSET CHARACTERISTICS THAT APPLY TO THAT.
YOU HAVE TO HAVE LIKE A CERTAIN MINIMUM ACREAGE AND IT HAS TO BE COMBINED WITH THE OVERALL TRACK.
SO I THINK WHEN YOU'RE READING IT IN THE ORDINANCE TOO, IT MAKES IT SOUND A LITTLE DIFFERENT THAN WHAT IT ACTUALLY TURNS OUT TO BE ON THE ENTIRE SITE.
BUT HERB CAN EXPLAIN THAT IN MORE DETAIL.
HERB SCHULTZ C HT AND DO YOU SWEAR TO TESTIMONY THE TRUTH? THE TRUTH, YES.
SO, YEAH, JUST TO BE CLEAR, THE 75%, UH, IMPERVIOUS COVERAGE IS A NUMBER THAT'S WRITTEN IN.
BUT THE REALITY IS THAT WE HAVE, UH, TWO DIFFERENT PARCELS ON THIS, RIGHT? WE HAVE THE RUG FOUR PARCEL AND THEN THE OVERALL CRSC PARCEL, THE RUG FOUR AS DESIGNED RIGHT NOW, THE RESIDENTIAL PORTION OF IT IS ABOUT 52% IMPERVIOUS, NOT 75.
I JUST WANNA BE CLEAR ON THAT.
SO THE OTHER REMAINING PART OF THE PARCEL IS AT, UH, 67%.
UM, AND THEN IF YOU DO AN AGGREGATE, SO BASICALLY TAKE THE OVERALL IMPERVIOUS FOR BOTH OF THOSE ACROSS THE ENTIRE SITE.
WE'RE AT, I THINK EITHER 62 OR 62.5% IF THAT SHEDS A LITTLE BETTER PLAY ON IT.
AND THAT'S A CHANGE FROM WHAT'S THERE TODAY BY WHAT I, I DON'T KNOW EXACTLY WHAT'S THERE TODAY.
UH, WHAT I WOULD SAY IS, UM, AS I'VE SAID BEFORE, UM, WHAT MAKES THIS SITE SO DESIRABLE TO US IS THE INFRASTRUCTURE THAT'S ALREADY THERE, RIGHT? THE, THE TURN IN TURNOUT, UM, THE SIGNALED LIGHT AND ALL OF THE, YOU KNOW, ALL OF THE, UH, VEHICULAR CIRCULATION THAT IT RUNS THROUGH, WE'RE REUTILIZING, ALL OF THAT.
UM, AND SO, AND WHAT KIND OF AMENITIES ARE GONNA BE PART OF THE RESIDENTIAL, UH, SECTION, HOUSING STOCKED HOUSES? IS THERE, IS THERE ANY KIND OF AMENITIES LIKE, I DON'T KNOW, A COMMUNITY CENTER OR, SO WE, UH, AS PART OF OUR, UH, BACK AND FORTH WITH THE TOWNSHIP, UM, IT WAS, UH, MADE KNOWN TO US VERY EARLY ON, UM, THAT THE HISTORIC HOUSE ON THE SITE, UH, IT WAS DESIRED BY ALL TO BE, UM, AT LEAST FIXED UP AND NOT DEMOLISHED.
UM, WE'RE PLANNING ON TAKING THAT A STEP FURTHER, WE'RE PLANNING ON FIXING IT.
UM, AND, AND REUTILIZING IT AS, AS SOME KIND OF A, A, A DESTINATION, A GATHERING SPACE FOR BOTH THE RESIDENTS, UH, IN THE ACTUAL, UH, TOWNHOUSE DEVELOPMENT AND FOR ALL THE WALKERS THAT COME RIGHT BY THAT PLACE ON A DAY-TO-DAY BASIS.
[01:00:01]
UM, I DON'T KNOW THAT WE HAVE A SPECIFIC USE FOR THAT YET.POTENTIALLY A, A CAFE, SOME OUTDOOR SEATINGS, THINGS LIKE THAT.
UM, SO THAT'S, THAT WOULD BE THE MAIN AMENITY SPACE RIGHT THERE IN THAT ALL HAS ITS OWN PARKING AND ADDITIONAL WALKING PATHS AND ADDITIONAL WALKING THROUGH THE COMMUNITY YEP.
THROUGH THE COMMUNITY CONNECTING TO THE PARK DOWN BLACKROCK, UP TO THE PARK AREA.
IF, IF YOU'RE, UM, LIVING IN THE, IN THE TOWN OF COMMUNITY.
SO YOU WHO AGAIN? DAVID LANCE, HOW ABOUT ANY HELP WITH CROSSING 29? IS IT ANY IMPROVEMENTS TO THAT ROAD? 'CAUSE THE TRAIL CROSSES RIGHT OVER RIGHT.
IT TERMINATES ON OUR, ON ONTO THE PROPERTY, RIGHT? YEAH.
THAT'S SOMETHING THAT WE'LL BE LOOKING AT DURING LAND DEVELOPMENT.
I MEAN, WE, WE'VE MADE THEM AWARE THAT WE NEED IMPROVEMENTS AT DO RUN, WHICH IS THE INTERSECTION WITH, WITH AT THE SECOND LIGHT, NOT AT 29 AND BLACKROCK ROAD.
SO THERE'S IMPROVEMENT THERE AT THEIR ENTRANCE THAT WE'RE LOOKING FOR TO CONNECT OVER TO GSK AND AT THE CORNER OF 29 AND BLACKROCK ROAD.
THAT, THAT, THOSE ARE AREAS ARE OF GREAT IMPORTANCE TO US.
AND, AND LIKE I SAID BEFORE, THEY'RE COMING INTO A ALREADY DEVELOPED SITE IN TERMS OF ROADWAYS AND ROAD WIDTHS AND THINGS LIKE THAT.
SO WHERE THEIR INFRASTRUCTURE COSTS, IF IT WAS A BRAND NEW DEVELOPMENT, MAY GO TO PAY FOR SOMETHING LIKE THAT.
WE TURN AROUND AND WE SAY, WELL, YOU'RE NOT PAYING FOR THAT NOW BECAUSE OF PREVIOUSLY IMPROVED.
WE'RE LOOKING AT THAT MONEY TO GO TO SOMETHING ELSE TO BENEFIT THE TOWNSHIP TO CROSS CROSSWALKS, CROSSWALKS, OTHER THINGS, OTHER TRAIL ATTACHMENTS THAT, THAT WOULD BE LAND DEVELOPMENT.
AND, AND WE'RE WELL AWARE OF THE NEED FOR THAT.
SO WE'LL LOOK INTO THE ROAD THAT WHERE YOU HAVE TO MERGE RIGHT.
'CAUSE I FEEL LIKE THAT'S GONNA BE AN ISSUE, RIGHT? THE EXIT COMING OFF 4 22 YEAH.
TO MERGE OVER AND YEAH, WE HAVEN'T TALKED SPECIFICALLY ABOUT THAT, BUT YES, THAT SOMETHING, THIS IS LIKE THE FUTURE THAT WE WOULD DISCUSS.
I'M, I DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT I SAID.
UM, LOOKING AT THE MERGE FROM 4 22, THE RIGHT LANE MERGE 2 2 29 29.
ALRIGHT, JEFF, SO EXACTLY HOW MANY UNDER THIS ORDINANCE THAT THEY'RE PROPOSING TONIGHT, UH, THIS TEXT CHANGE, HOW MANY RESIDENTIAL TRUCK UNITS POTENTIALLY COULD BE BUILT ON THIS SITE? I, I WOULD HAVE TO DO THEM.
I WOULD HAVE TO DO THE MATH AND, AND GET THEIR PLAN OUT.
I, I MEAN, I'VE SEEN THE NUMBER, YOU KNOW, THAT THEY, THAT THEY'VE HAD ON THE PLAN AND IN, IN THE DOCUMENTS, AND I GUESS IN MY MIND, I ALWAYS SORT OF HAD THE 120 NUMBER FLOATING OUT THERE.
UM, IT, YOU KNOW, I, I DON'T THINK THAT THEY CAN BUILD MORE THAN THAT.
I THINK THEY'RE MAXED OUT IN TERMS OF LOOKING AT THE PLAN AND SEEING HOW IT'S DRAWN.
YES, I COULD CERTAINLY DO SOME MORE MATH FOR YOU AND, AND LOOK AT THAT, BUT IT'S ALWAYS GONNA BE A FUDGE FACTOR FOR MY CASE BECAUSE I DON'T HAVE THE ENGINEERING AND I, I'M NOT SITTING DOWN DESIGNING WITH ROAD WIDTHS AND THINGS LIKE THAT.
I WAS JUST GONNA SAY THAT FROM A PRACTICALITY STANDPOINT TO GIVE THE COMMUNITY THE FEEL THAT WE'RE LOOKING FOR.
WE CAN'T PUT ANYTHING ELSE ON THAT SITE.
SO I JUST WANTED TO MAKE THAT CLEAR FROM OUR PERSPECTIVE.
WE, WE, I THINK WE WE'RE GOOD WRAP UP COMMENT.
EVERYBODY'S PICKING UP A FULL OPPORTUNITY, UM, TO OFFER THEIR OPINIONS ON THE, ON THE ORDINANCE.
I THINK WE OUGHT HAVE A GOOD FEELING FOR WHERE THAT ALL STANDS.
UM, DID ALLISON, DID YOU HAVE ANYTHING TO WRAP UP? UM, NO, OTHER THAN, I MEAN, TO THE EXTENT THAT, UM, THE BOARD WOULD BE WILLING TO CONSIDER A VOTE TONIGHT, WE WOULD APPRECIATE THAT.
OBVIOUSLY IF THERE'S A CONCERN ABOUT, UM, THE HEIGHT LIMITATION, I THINK WE COULD, UM, ALSO FURTHER ADDRESS THAT THROUGH OTHER MEANS OR AN ADDITIONAL TEXT CHANGE.
UM, BUT WE ARE, YOU KNOW, HOPEFUL THAT YOU WOULD BE WILLING TO APPROVE THE ORDINANCE AMENDMENT THIS EVENING.
HOW WOULD THAT WORK WITH THE HEIGHT? WOULD IT, WELL, I THINK WHAT SHE MEANS IS, UH, LIKE A DEED RESTRICTION OR, YOU KNOW, PLAN, YOU DO THAT ON THE HEIGHT.
PEOPLE ARE STARTING TO CREEP THEIR WAY TOWARDS THE FRONT.
I GUESS THEY'RE JUST NOT GONNA LIVE WITH THE THIRD ROUND OF COMMENTS.
WELL, I WANT TO SPEAK TO THE IMPERVIOUS COVERAGE COMMENT.
SO THAT'S THE FIRST THING THAT'S, I BE A MINUTE OR LESS A LAWYER PROMISING A MINUTE THAT I BE A
I GUESS THE, THE IMP PURPOSE COVERAGE COMMENT, IT, IT JUST PROVES MY POINT.
IT'S THE FIRST TIME WE'VE HEARD 52%, BUT THE ORDINANCE HAS 75%, 52% IS DRAMATICALLY MORE IN LINE WITH WHAT YOUR ORDINANCES ARE.
SO IF YOU PASS THE ORDINANCE, THEY'RE ALLOWED TO 75%.
YOU KNOW, IT'S, IT DOESN'T MEAN THEY'RE GONNA GO 130 UNITS, BUT THEY COULD.
AND I JUST, YOU KNOW, THAT'S WHERE THAT ANALYSIS THAT WE WOULD JUST ASK YOU TO DO THAT MORE DEEPER DIVE AND BRING BACK AN ORDINANCE THAT HOPEFULLY IS BETTER FOR EVERYONE.
[01:05:01]
BAR THAT.YOU SURE DID I A DOLLAR, YOU OWE ME 32ND.
SO JOE, IF WE WAITED, AND I KNOW ALLISON WANTS TO PASS IT TONIGHT, BUT IF WE WAITED, COULD WE NAIL DOWN THOSE DETAILS IN THIS? LIKE, YOU CAN'T GO PAST HERE.
IF YOU, ANYTHING, ANY CHANGE, ANY CHANGE YOU WANT IN THE ORDINANCE REQUIRES COMING BACK AGAIN, BECAUSE, BECAUSE ZONING ORDINANCE IS, WHEN THEY'RE AMENDED, THEY HAVE TO GO BACK TO BOTH PLANNING COMMISSIONS AS A MATTER OF LAW.
SO I MEAN, COULD YOU COULD, YOU COULD ADDRESS THE HEIGHT ISSUE THROUGH A FEE RESTRICTION ON THIS JOB, BUT THEN IF THERE WAS ANY OTHER QUALIFIED JOB UNDER THE DISTRICT, IT WOULD ALSO ARGUABLY BE ENTITLED TO THAT HEIGHT.
UH, SO IF YOU WANTED TO LOOK, I, I, YOU KNOW, I, I CAN'T, YOU KNOW, READ YOUR MINDS OTHER THAN FROM THE COMMENTS THAT YOU, IF THERE'S A CONCERN ABOUT THAT OR, AND OR THE IMPERVIOUS COVERAGE, UM, EXPRESS, YOU KNOW, EXPRESS YOUR, YOUR CONCERN.
I MEAN, IT'S 30 DAYS ISN'T GOING TO CHANGE THE WORLD.
I MEAN, WELL, MR. PRESIDENT, I THINK IT'D BE MORE THAN JUST, I THINK IT'D BE MORE THAN 30, PROBABLY MORE LIKE AT LEAST 60 BECAUSE DRAFTING IT, GETTING INTO THE PLANNING COMMISSION.
MY AGENDA FOR THE PLANNING COMMISSION, JUST IN TERMS OF WHAT MEETINGS I SEE COMING UP, WE'RE TALKING MAYBE IT'D BE BACK FOR AUGUST AT THE EARLIEST.
I, I DON'T KNOW IF THE VIS COVERAGE IS.
I DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH OF A CONCERN THAT IS.
DO YOU WANT TO, JEN, DO YOU HAVE ANY OPINION ON THAT? YEAH, SO WHY DON'T WE HAVE, WHY DON'T WE HAVE JEN SPEAK TO THAT? IF SHE COULD BE SWORN ON WHAT LEVEL OF CONCERN THAT TOWNSHIP ENGINEER HAS ON THE IMPERVIOUS ISSUE.
JEN, DO YOU SWEAR TESTIMONY THE TRUTHFUL ABOUT THE TRUTH? SO I DO
IF YOU COULD ADDRESS ANY CONCERNS THAT YOU HAVE, IF ANY, REGARDING THE 75% MM-HMM.
AS FAR AS JEFF HAD SAID EARLIER, CURRENTLY THIS SITE DOESN'T HAVE ANY LIMITATION TO IMPERVIOUS COVERAGE.
SO NO MATTER WHAT THE PERCENTAGE IS THAT YOU FEEL COMFORTABLE WITH ON THE SITE, YOUR ORDINANCE CURRENTLY REQUIRES THE 50 YEAR POST-DEVELOPMENT STORM TO BE REDUCED TO THE TWO YEAR PRE-DEVELOPMENT STORM.
SO THERE'S GONNA BE LESS RUNOFF FROM THE SITE IN THE FUTURE BASED ON YOUR ORDINANCE.
AND THAT HOLDS TRUE, WHETHER IT'S MEADOW IMPERVIOUS COVERAGE, THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE THE SAME REDUCTION.
SO IT'S REALLY THE TWO YEAR PRE-DEVELOPMENT FLOW IS WHAT THEY'RE GOING TO BE HELD TO.
EVEN IF THEY PAVE A HUNDRED PERCENT OF THE SITE, THEY'RE STILL HELD TO THAT TWO YEAR PRE-DEVELOPMENT FLOW.
DOES THAT HELP AT ALL? ALRIGHT, THANK YOU JEN.
UM, SO HELENE, GOING BACK TO YOUR QUESTION, YOU'RE, I YOU'RE TRYING TO GET YOUR MI MIND AT HOW MUCH CAN BE ADDRESSED BY VOTING TONIGHT AND COVERING THE GR GROUND OF WHAT THE CONCERNS WERE, I GUESS.
I YOU NEED TO HEAR FROM YOUR OTHER, YOUR OTHER SUPERVISORS AS TO WHAT, YOU KNOW, WHAT THEIR LEVEL OF CONCERNS ARE.
I THINK, UH, I DON'T REALLY HAVE ANY CONCERNS.
I HAVE SOME COMMENTS ON MY OTHER PLAN COME IN, BUT I'M OKAY RIGHT NOW.
YEAH, I I, I JUST, I WOULD LIKE THINGS TO BE A LITTLE MORE LOCKED DOWN THAN THEY ARE, BUT, UM, YEAH, I THINK WE COULD MOVE FORWARD WITH THIS.
BUT, UH, YEAH, WE'RE, WE'RE GONNA WANNA LOCK DOWN A NUMBER OF UNITS AND, AND ALL THAT STUFF IN MIND DEVELOPMENT.
AND, UH, I THINK WE JUST NEED TO, I, I, IT DOES BOTHER ME THAT I RECEIVED THE COUNTY, UH, PLANNING COMMISSION'S LETTER THIS AFTERNOON AND WE'RE CONSIDERING IT TONIGHT.
UH, I, MR. STERLING, DUE CONSIDERATION, I'VE BEEN ON THE PHONE WITH THE PLANNING COMMISSION FOUR TIMES I UNDERSTAND.
AND, AND, AND IT, I, I CAN'T TELL YOU HOW MUCH FRUSTRATION I HAVE WITH THEM BECAUSE I DON'T CARE IF WE GAVE IT TO 'EM 60 DAYS OUT.
THEIR LETTERS COME THE DAY OF THE MEETING BECAUSE I PRESSURE THEM TO GET TO ME THE DAY OF THE MEETING.
SO IT, IT, I I'M, WHEN I TALK TO 'EM ON FRIDAY, THEY SAID, WELL, I HAVE TO DRAFT WRITTEN, BUT I, I DON'T HAVE ANYBODY TO APPROVE IT.
SO I I, I CAN SEND IT TO YOU, BUT YOU CAN'T SHOW IT TO ANYBODY.
SO IT IS, IT, IT'S COMPLETELY DISINGENUOUS THAT THEY PUT US ON A 30 DAY CLOCK.
THEY REQUIRE US TO GIVE THEM 30 DAYS, YET THEY CAN'T MEET THEIR OWN DEADLINES.
[01:10:01]
AND I'VE EXPRESSED THAT TO THEM, TO THE REVIEWER, LORRAINE LYNN, THE LETTER AND HER SUPERIORS AND EVERY, THE DIRECTOR OF THE COUNTY PLANNING PROGRAM BECAUSE IT'S VERY FRUSTRATING TO ME.AND IT'S NOT JUST THIS APPLICATION, IT'S EVERY APPLICATION.
SO THE NEXT STEP FOR THIS, IF WE PASS THIS TEXT AMENDMENT TONIGHT, IS, UH, THE INITIAL SKETCH PLAN.
THEY'LL COME WITH IT BACK WITH A SKETCH PLAN OR YES, THEY WOULD PUT IN ATTENDANCE SKETCH APPLICATION.
I'M NOT SURE WHAT THEIR TIMETABLE IS, BUT I GUESS IT'S FAIRLY YEAH.
AND WE HAVEN'T SEEN IT AS FAR AS I KNOW, AT LEAST I DON'T THINK THE BOARD
DID YOU EVER SUBMIT AN ELEVATION OF WHAT THESE STACKED TOWN HOMES LOOK LIKE TO THE PLANNING COMMISSION? DID THEY SEE A PICTURE OF WHAT THIS LOOKED LIKE? YES.
UM, THIS, THE SAME PRESENTATION THAT WE GAVE YOU IN MAY, WE GAVE TO THE PLANNING COMMISSION AT THE JUNE 5TH MEETING, BUT WE HAD ALSO PRESENTED TO THEM BACK IN JANUARY AND IN MARCH.
SO THEY'VE SEEN THAT THE ELEVATIONS THREE TIMES THESE IMAGES ON THE SCREEN THERE HAVE BEEN SHOWN THAT YOUR MEETINGS, THEIR MEETINGS, MULTIPLE MEETINGS.
SO, ALRIGHT, SO EXPLAIN IT TO ME THEN.
UH, WHERE IS THE ENTRANCE FOR THE LOWER LEVEL AND WHERE IS THE ENTRANCE FOR THE UPPER LEVEL? I'M GOING TO DEFER TO HER ON THAT.
AND WILL EACH AND EVERY UNIT HAVE ITS OWN ELEVATOR? I WHAT WAS THE OTHER QUESTION? YES, TO THAT QUESTION.
UM, THE ENTRANCES ARE, WELL, YOU CAN KIND OF SEE THE ALCOVES HERE, UH, COMING IN EACH, EACH HOUSE HAS A TWO CAR GARAGE ON THE BACKSIDE.
UM, THAT'S SEPARATED BY A DEMISE WALL, FIRE RATED OF COURSE.
AND, UM, THERE'S VERTICAL CIRCULATION WITHIN THAT FOOTPRINT.
SO WHEN YOU COME, IF YOU LIVE IN ONE OF THE UPPER UNITS, YOU WOULD COME INTO YOUR GARAGE AND WHEREVER YOU ENTER THE BUILDING, YOU WOULD, YOU WOULD'VE THE ABILITY TO GET ON YOUR, IN YOUR ELEVATOR THERE OR ASSUME THE STEPS ALSO.
HOW DO WE FEEL? YOU WANNA PASS THE MOTION? OKAY, BILL, YOU'RE GOOD? YEAH.
I'LL MAKE A MOTION TO ENACT ORDINANCE 6 0 6 AMENDING THE TEXT AND MATT FOR, UH, CHAPTER 300 ZONING OF THE CRSC DISTRICT AND TO ESTABLISH A NEW RUG DASH FOUR DISTRICT IN THE CRSC DISTRICT.
THANK YOU VERY MUCH EVERYBODY.
SO THERE'S NO OLD BUSINESS TO DISCUSS NEW BUSINESS.
[NEW BUSINESS (ACTION/DISCUSSION ITEMS)]
UM, CONSIDER ADOPTING RESOLUTION 2024 DASH 24 REGARDING A WAIVER REQUEST FOR THE LEWIS ROAD TOWN HOMES 4 6 1 SOUTH LEWIS ROAD.SO WHAT, WHAT THIS IS ABOUT IS, UH, AFTER FINAL LAND DEVELOPMENT APPROVAL, WE ENCOUNTERED A SITUATION WHERE A GAS PIPELINE COMPANY STATED THAT SOME OF THE WORK WAS COMING TOO CLOSE TO THEIR PIPELINE.
AND IT REQUIRED SOMEWHAT CON IT WAS ACTUALLY A DIFFICULT ISSUE THE WAY IT WAS WORDED IN THE ORDINANCE AS TO WHETHER OR NOT THEY, UM, NEEDED A WAIVER TO BE WITHIN THE DISTANCE THAT THEY WANTED TO BE TO THE PIPELINE.
AND I, I ULTIMATELY CONCLUDED THAT THEY DID NEED A WAIVER OF THAT AND THAT WASN'T KNOWN BACK.
USUALLY THE WAIVERS ARE IN THE FINAL APPROVAL RESOLUTION SOMETIMES IN THE PRELIMINARY APPROVAL RESOLUTION THIS TIME.
THESE, THE NEED FOR THESE AROSE AFTER THAT.
SO IT'S A STANDALONE RESOLUTION GRANT WAIVERS THAT THE PLANNING COMMISSION'S IN FAVOR OF STAFF'S IN FAVOR OF, IN WHICH I'M IN FAVOR OF.
THERE'S NO DANGER TO THE SAFETY OF THE GAS LINE BY LETTING 'EM DO THE LIMITED AMOUNT OF WORK THAT THEY'RE DOING INSIDE THE, THE RIGHT OF WAY.
AND THE, THE WAY THAT THE PROBLEM WAS, WAS AVOIDED WAS TO NOT WIDEN TO, TO WIDEN LESS OF THE ROAD SO THAT YOU DIDN'T GET AS CLOSE TO IT, BASICALLY TO PULL UP SHORT OF IT.
[01:15:01]
UM, AND SO THE RESOLUTION READS IN THREE PARTS BECAUSE IT DOES SIDEWALK, THEN CURB THEN, YOU KNOW, THE RIGHT WAY.SO IT'S REALLY SIMPLY, UH, ADJUSTING THE SITE TO ACCOMMODATE THIS GAS LINE THAT THE GAS COMPANY DREW, DREW A HARD LINE IN THE SAND ON ROAD.
ARE WE GIVING THEM FORGIVENESS FOR, IN OTHER WORDS, WE'RE NOT FULLY WIDENED 'CAUSE WE DON'T WANNA GET CLOSE.
SO WHAT WE HAVE IS WE HAVE TWO LEGS OF, UH, OF LEWIS ROAD.
WE ARE ON, I'M GONNA CALL THAT I THINK THAT'S, I'M GONNA CALL IT THE, THE SOUTH OR EASTERN LEG OF LEWIS ROAD.
AND WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT IS, UH, OUR PROPERTY LINE IS ESSENTIALLY AT THIS POINT HERE, SO WE'RE ROUGHLY ABOUT 109 FEET BACK FROM OUR PROPERTY LINE TO THE, UH, THE EDGE OF THE, UH, THE GAS PIPELINE RIGHT AWAY.
JUST THIS AREA, JUST THAT 109 FEET WHERE WE'RE, WE ARE DOING ALL THE WIDENING, UH, AS WELL AS THE ADDITIONAL DEDICATED TERM, ET CETERA, ALONG THE, TO THE, UH, ENTIRE REST OF THE, UH, THE ROAD.
WELL, MY UNDERSTANDING FROM THE PLANNING COMMISSION ISN'T ANYTHING TO DO WITH SAFETY.
THIS HAD TO DO WITH THE COST OF REPLACING THE CASEMENT AROUND THAT PIPELINE TO RE THE, THE ORDINANCE LANGUAGE.
IT REQUIRES YOU 40 FEET IS A SAFETY FEATURE.
THAT'S WHAT THIS UNDERLIES THE ORDINANCE.
AND THEN THAT THEY, SO THEY WERE ENFORCING THAT THAT WAS THE UNDERLYING REASON FOR THEM ENFORCING IT.
WELL, BUT YOU'RE RIGHT, IT IS ABOUT THE, IT'S ABOUT, 'CAUSE OTHERWISE YOU HAVE TO REEN CASE IT AND THIS WAY YOU'RE AVOIDING A HUGE PROBLEM.
WELL, MY POINT IS, THAT ROAD IS GONNA HAVE TO BE WIDENED.
THAT'S THE MAIN CONNECTOR BETWEEN THE TWO SPRINGPORT CAMPUSES.
AND, UH, WE'RE EVENTUALLY GONNA BE WIDENING THAT ROAD AND IMPROVING THAT INTERSECTION AT, UH, I GUESS IT'S LEWIS AND Y AT THAT POINT.
SO I, I DON'T WANT, I I, YOU KNOW, EITHER, EITHER THEY TO DO IT OR OUR TAXPAYERS HAVE PAID FOR IT.
IT'S, UH, SO I, I DON'T SEE ANY UPSIDE FOR US ON VOTING THESE WAIVERS.
I THINK THEY SHOULD GO AHEAD AND REPLACE THE CASE MAN AND WIDEN THE ROAD ALL THE WAY TO THEIR PROPERTY LINE AS WE'RE ENTITLED TO.
WELL, WAIVERS ARE DEFINITELY DISCRETIONARY.
IF I, IF I COULD RESPOND MR. LING, PLEASE.
YES, THIS IS, UH, LINDSEY DUNN ON BEHALF OF THE APPLICANT, UH, FOR THE WAIVERS.
UM, IT, IT IS NOT A SAFETY ISSUE.
THE, THE SETBACK WAIVER MR. STERLING HAD TO DO WITH, UM, BUILDINGS IN, IN THEORY, FROM WHAT I CAN DISCERN FROM THE CODE, ALL OF THE BUILDINGS AND STRUCTURES ARE SET BACK FURTHER THAN 40 FEET FROM THE PIPELINE.
THIS IS A MATTER OF A LEVEL SPREADER AND SOME GRADING, UM, TO ALLOW THEM TO BE ABLE TO, AND, AND IT WON'T IMPEDE THEIR ABILITY TO BE ABLE TO ACCESS THEIR EASEMENT MOVING FORWARD IF THEY NEED TO DO SOMETHING.
UM, THE COST IS, IS PROHIBITIVE GRANTED FOR US BECAUSE BUCKEYE IS TAKING THE POSITION THAT IF WE WIDEN THE ROAD, WE WOULD HAVE TO REPLACE THE CASE, MAN.
NOW I DON'T AGREE WITH THAT INTERPRETATION, BUT IT'S CERTAINLY A FIGHT THAT BUCKEYE WOULD BE WILLING TO TAKE UP.
THEY ALSO DON'T WANT TO DISTURB IT RIGHT NOW.
SO THAT IS ALSO PART OF THE EQUATION.
WELL, WHETHER WE DISTURB IT NOW OR WE DISTURB IT IN A COUPLE OF YEARS, WHEN, WHEN ROAD HAS TO BE WIDE TO APPROVE THAT INTERSECTION AND THAT CARTER BETWEEN THE TWO SCHOOL CAMPUSES, SOMEBODY'S GONNA HAVE TO PAY FOR 'EM.
AND AT THAT POINT IT'LL BE THE TOWNSHIP AND THE TAXPAYERS THAT WILL BE PAYING FOR IT.
WELL, IT IS A STATE ROAD AND WE HAVE NO INDICATION FROM PENDO THAT THAT IS A CONCERN TO THEM.
THAT IS ANYWHERE NEAR, NEAR IN THE PIPELINE, 20 INTENDED.
IT'S IN OUR DISCUSSIONS, UH, THAT INTERSECTION IN PARTICULAR AND THAT ROADWAY.
SO YEAH, LIKE I SAID, I DON'T, I DON'T SEE WHAT THE BENEFIT IS TO THE TOWNSHIP TORAN, THESE WAIVERS.
I THINK THE WORK SHOULD BE DONE.
THE CASE WHICH SHOULD BE REPLACED AND THE ROADWAY SHOULD BE REINFORCED.
IT'S PART OF THE PROJECT AND THE GAS PIPELINE'S BEEN IN THERE FOR HOW MANY YEARS.
SO IT'S BEEN RUNNING AND YOU WERE AWARE OF IT.
WHEN, WHEN, WHEN, AND YOU'RE AWARE OF THE ADJACENT IMPROVEMENTS TOO, THAT WE WERE ENTITLED TO.
WE'RE AWARE THAT, THAT OUR PROPERTY PERMITS THE GAS PIPELINE THROUGH AS AN EASEMENT.
UM, SO IN, IN THAT WAY, WE'RE ASSISTING THE TOWNSHIP IN FACILITATING THE MOVEMENT OF GAS.
BUT, UM, OKAY, THE TOWNSHIP DOESN'T MOVE ANY GAS THROUGH THAT PIPELINE.
WHAT I'M SAYING IS THE ROADWAY IMPROVEMENT WILL HAVE TO BE DONE EVENTUALLY, IF NOT DONE NOW.
IT WILL BE DONE IN THE NEXT FEW YEARS.
AND IF YOU DO IT NOW, THEN YOU HAVE TO PAY FOR IT AS AN, AS AN ADJACENT IMPROVEMENT THAT WE ARE ENTITLED TO AND
[01:20:01]
OTHERWISE THE TOWNSHIP WILL AND OUR TAXPAYERS ARE WILLING TO PAY FOR IT.WELL, I WOULD, I WOULD JUST REMIND THE BOARD THAT IT IS AN, AN OFFSITE TRAFFIC IMPROVEMENT.
UM, IN TERMS IT'S, IT'S ADJACENT TO THE PROPERTY.
BUT IT IS OFFSITE, IT'S AN OFFSITE TRAFFIC IMPROVEMENT.
AND IN ADDITION, I WOULD REMIND THE BOARD, I, BECAUSE I DO KNOW THAT IT'S BEEN SOME TIME SINCE WE'VE BEEN BEFORE YOU, UM, FOR THE FINAL APPROVAL, UH, TO HAVE DISCOVERED THESE ISSUES WITH BUCKEYE.
BUT WE ARE ASSISTING TO, UM, IMPLEMENT OTHER OFFSITE TRAFFIC IMPROVEMENTS AT THE INTERSECTION OF, OF SOUTH LOS AND BOND.
SO IT IS AS THOUGH WE SIMPLY REQUESTING TO SHIRK ANY SORT OF SENSE OF RESPONSIBILITY FOR THIS PROJECT OR TO THE TOWNSHIP.
AND, AND ONE THAT YEAH, WE, WE, WE ACTUALLY DISCUSSED THAT IMPROVEMENT TOO.
THAT'S, THAT'S GONNA BE ANOTHER MILLION PLUS IMPROVEMENT FOR, FOR THE TOWNSHIP.
AND WE WERE AND WE'RE GLAD TO DO THAT.
BUT THE LIGHTS AND, AND THE SIGNALIZATION OF THAT INTERSECTION AND ALL THAT, AND YOU'RE GRANTED US A LITTLE BIT OF, OF ROADWAY THERE.
BUT YOU UNDERSTAND THAT SOMEBODY'S GONNA HAVE TO PAY TO WIDEN THIS ROAD SOONER OR LATER, AND IT'S GONNA BE SOONER BECAUSE OF ALL THE TRAFFIC, UH, INCREASE THAT WE'RE GONNA HAVE IN THE NEXT FEW YEARS.
SO, BUT BY GOD DOESN'T HAVE ANY, I JUST WANT YOU TO UNDERSTAND WHY I'M GOING TO VOTE NO ON THIS.
SO ARGUE ABOUT, SO THIS IS THE ONLY WAY TO FIX THE PROBLEM.
THERE, THERE INSIST INSISTING ON NOT GETTING THAT CLOSE TO THE PIPE.
THERE'S NO OTHER WAY AROUND IT.
WELL, IF THEY'RE DENIED THE, IF THEY'RE DENIED THE WAIVERS, THEN THEY'LL HAVE TO DO IT THE, THE EXPENSIVE WAY.
THERE'S WE'LL HAVE TO DO, WELL, IT'S GONNA RESULT IN THE FIGHT WITH THE PIPELINE OR, OR SCRUBBING OF THE PROJECT, QUITE FRANKLY.
THAT THAT'S WHAT IT'S GONNA BE SCRAPPING THE PROJECT.
IT IT, IT IS, IT IS, IT IS A PROHIBITIVE EXPENSE THE WAY THE BUCKEYE WANTS IT TO BE ACCOMPLISHED.
BUCKEYE IS MAKING IT PROHIBITIVELY EXPENSIVE BECAUSE THEY DON'T WANT IT DONE BECAUSE THEY DON'T WANT IT DONE.
AND IT'S UP TO BUCKEYE TO DETERMINE HOW IT SHOULD BE DONE.
IT WAS UP TO ME TO, I INTERPRETED THE ORDINANCE A CERTAIN WAY OTHER AFTER THAT.
I MEAN THE, I AGREED WITH THEIR INTERPRETATION PUSH COME TO SHOVE.
NOT THAT I WANTED TO SEE THEM GET IN, CAUSE A BIG FIGHT TO HAPPEN, BUT I DID, MY INTERPRETATION WAS THE SAME AS THEIRS IN HOW YOU READ THE ORDINANCE.
UH, THE WAY THAT WORKS WITH RESPECT TO, UH, THE LAW ON WAIVERS IS IF THEY FACILITATE A, AN OVERALL GOOD PLAN, THEN YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO GRANT THEM.
AND IF THEY DO NOT FACILITATE A GOOD PLAN, THEN YOU ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO GRANT THEM.
SO IT'S REALLY A QUESTION OF WHETHER IT FACILITATES AN OTHERWISE, YOU KNOW, PROPERLY AND WELL LAID OUT PLAN.
MY, MY THOUGHT IS TO WAIT AND TABLE THIS SO WE CAN GET MORE INFORMATION.
COULD YOU GUYS AGREE? OKAY, THIS IS NEW TO ME BECAUSE I WASN'T HERE WHEN THIS WAS FURTHER THROUGH.
SO I'D LIKE MAYBE SOME MORE INFORMATION WE COULD HAVE A DISCUSSION IN.
ALTERNATIVELY, I, I WOULD SUGGEST THAT THAT MAYBE SOMEWHERE TO MEET OUR CONCERN IN THE MIDDLE WITH MR. STARLING'S CONCERN WOULD BE TO, I'M JUST THROWING THIS OUT THERE, ESCROW, SOME SORT OF FEE IN LIEU BECAUSE I DON'T THINK THAT BUCKEYE WOULD HAVE A CHUTZPAH, QUITE FRANKLY TO, TO TAKE THE POSITION THAT THE TOWNSHIP WOULD EVER HAVE TO PAY FOR THEIR CASEMENT.
THEY, THEY FEEL COMFORTABLE DOING THAT TO US BECAUSE THE IDEA OF A LEGAL BATTLE TO US IS, IS IS INCREDIBLY UNSAVORY TO HOLD UP THE PROJECT.
RIGHT? UM, THEY DON'T HAVE ANY MECHANISM UNDER THE LAW TO COMPEL THE TOWNSHIP TO PAY FOR IT.
I DON'T EVEN THINK THEY HAVE A MECHANISM TO COMPEL US TO, BUT I KNOW THAT THAT'S THE LINE OF TAKING.
SO I, I DON'T KNOW IF THAT WOULD HELP ALLEVIATE ANY CONCERN THAT YOU HAVE THAT THIS WOULD BE SOMETHING THAT WOULD INEVITABLY BE DONE IN THE NEXT COUPLE OF YEARS.
SO IF, LET'S SAY THE CASEMENT IS TO MAKE THE PIPE SAFE FOR THE ADDITIONAL WIDTH OF THE ROADWAY AND THE TRAFFIC TRAVELING OVER THE WAY, THE TRAFFIC TRAVELING OVER THAT PIPELINE.
WELL, YOU KNOW, SO, SO BUCK BUCKEYE'S POSITION, JUST SO, JUST SO WE'RE CLEAR, BUCKEYE'S POSITION IS NOT THAT THEY WANT US TO EXTEND THE CASING TO MATCH THE ROAD WIDENING.
THEY WANT US TO REPLACE ALL THE CASING, TAKE OUT
[01:25:01]
THE OLD CASING, REPLACE IT AND EXTEND IT, WHICH IS UNREASONABLE.AND I LEGALLY I THINK WE WOULD BE VICTORIOUS.
BUT BUT NOBODY'S GOING TO TAKE THAT TO LITIGATION PRIOR TO, TO PUTTING IN 24 TOWN HOMES THAT AREN'T STACKABLE, BY THE WAY.
I I MEAN, I'M SORRY, BUT THERE'S ONLY TWO WAY ROAD IMPROVEMENTS GET PAID FOR IN THE TOWNSHIP.
EITHER THE TOWN, EITHER THE TAXPAYERS PAY FOR 'EM OR THE DEVELOPERS THAT ARE INCREASING THE, THE TRAFFIC ON THE ROADWAYS.
AND YEAH, MAYBE IT'S NOT FAIR FOR A 24 TOWNHOUSE, UH, SUBDIVISION TO HAVE TO DO THIS.
BUT I WILL REPEAT THIS GAS PIPELINE HAS RUN UNDER THIS PROPERTY.
THIS IS SOMETHING THAT COULD HAVE BEEN INVESTIGATED BY YOUR DEVELOPER OKAY.
IT HAD TO BE DONE AT THE, IT HAD TO BE DONE AT THE CONVENIENCE.
I'M COLLECT THE ROYALTIES ALL THESE YEARS ON THAT PIPELINE RUNNING THROUGH THEIR PROPERTY.
THIS PIPELINE, UH, I BELIEVE THIS EASEMENT DATES BACK IN 1923 OR SOMETHING IN THAT REALM.
AND, AND TO YOUR POINT, I MEAN, I'M SAYING IF, IF YOU'RE CONCERNED THAT THE ROAD WIDENING WOULD BE DONE BY THE TOWNSHIP, A FEE AND LIE OR AN ESCROW IN FAVOR OF THE TOWNSHIP FOR THE COST OF THAT CONSTRUCTION OF ROAD WIDENING WOULD BE SOMETHING THAT WE'D BE OPEN TO.
'CAUSE THE BUCK, IT'S HARD TO ARGUE WITH THAT.
I MEAN, I, I DON'T KNOW HOW, I DON'T KNOW WHEN THESE PLANS ARE TO CONNECT THE CAMPUSES.
UM, I DON'T KNOW HOW IMMEDIATE THE NEED, BUT IF THEY HELD THE MONEY IN ESCROW UNTIL IT, YOU KNOW, UNTIL THAT DETERMINATION WAS MADE AND THEY'RE ESSENTIALLY PAYING FOR IT.
WE'RE NOT TRYING TO GET OUT OF PAYING FOR THE ROAD WIDENING.
TRUST ME, THAT WE, WE WOULD NOT BE BACK HERE RE-ENGINEERED PLANS, WAIVER LETTERS, PLANNING COMMISSION BOARD OF SUPERVISORS TO AVOID HOWEVER MANY FEET OF ROAD WIDENING THAT IT'S NOT, THAT IS NOT OUR GOAL.
I THE QUESTION, LET'S SAY TO BILL'S POINT, IT WOULD BE ON US, AND I WANT TO PLAY DEVIL'S ADVOCATE HERE.
OKAY, SO WE GO DOWN 10 DOWN YEARS DOWN THE ROAD AND WE'RE GOING TO WIDEN IT.
IF IT'S A PICO ROAD, COULD THEY COULDN'T PUT THE PENDOT, THEY COULDN'T PUT THAT COST ON US, COULD THEY? LET'S SAY WE DON'T DO IT, WOULD IT COME ON US OR WOULD IT WOULD COME ON? WELL I DON'T KNOW IF YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT THE CASE SCHOOL DISTRICT IMPROVEMENT INITIATED BY THE SCHOOL DISTRICT, THE ROAD, BECAUSE TO BILL'S POINT, ARE WE EVER GONNA WIDEN THE ROAD TO CONNECT CAMPUSES? IS THAT RIGHT, BILL? YEAH.
WHEN WE GO TO IMPROVE THAT INTERSECTION THERE, WHICH WE KNOW WE'RE GONNA HAVE TO DO, WE'VE ALREADY TALKED ABOUT THAT, THAT AFTER THE PARKHOUSE THING, THAT, THAT, THAT AMOUNT, THE AMOUNT OF TRAFFIC THAT'S GONNA FLOW THROUGH THERE, WE DO NOT THINK PEN DOT'S GONNA REACH OUT THAT FAR UNTIL THE DEVELOPERS OF PARKHOUSE AND THEY HAVE TO FIX THAT INTERSECTION.
SO IT'S GONNA NEED TO BE FIXED.
AND WHEN WE DO, I'M SURE WE'RE GONNA WANT TO IMPROVE THAT ROAD ALL THE WAY BETWEEN THE TWO CAMPUSES.
IF I COULD CLARIFY, I THINK YOU'RE TALKING JUST TO MAKE SURE WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE RIGHT INTERSECTION.
YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT JAGER AND LEWIS, RIGHT? THAT INTERSECTION NOW THERE'S ALSO SPRINGER AND UH, THERE'S ALSO LEWIS WHERE IT TURNS THE CORNER, THAT INTERSECTION WE'VE TALKED ABOUT.
WE KNOW THEY'RE DOING SOME IMPROVEMENTS TO THAT INTERSECTION, RIGHT? AND WE'RE TALKING, OBVIOUSLY WE DID ABOUT PUT IT AS A WHOLE, BUT THEN, BUT THEN WIDENING FROM VAUGHN, RIGHT? ALL THE MAKING SURE IT'S WIDENED ALL THE WAY FROM VAUGHN TO THE LEWIS TURN.
THAT'S WHAT YOU ARE EXPRESSING YOUR CONCERN ABOUT.
AND THAT IS THE MAIN CONNECTOR BETWEEN THE TWO CAMPUSES, BETWEEN SIX SEVEN OR 5 6 7 CENTER.
OKAY? AND, UH, AND OUR PUBLIC PROVIDENCE ELEMENTARY CAMPUS AND THEN, UH, HIGH SCHOOL AND MIDDLE SCHOOL CAMPUSES ON THE OTHER SIDE.
SO WE KNOW HOW MUCH TRAFFIC FLOWS ON THAT ROAD EVERY DAY.
I DRIVE IT, YOU DRIVE IT, EVERYBODY KNOWS, OKAY, THAT'S GOING TO NEED TO BE WIDENED AND IMPROVE.
THAT INTERSECTION'S GONNA BE IMPROVE AND WHY WOULDN'T WE WIDE THE ROAD AT THE SAME TIME? AND I DON'T, I I, YOU KNOW, 104 FEET OF, OF OF ROADWAY WIDENING.
IT'S, IT IS GONNA BE SOMEBODY'S COST EVENTUALLY.
WELL, IF WE ESCROW THE COST WITH THE TOWNSHIP, WE'RE COVERING THE COST.
NO, I'M CONCERNED ABOUT THIS PIPELINE TOO THOUGH.
AND, AND THE CASE WENT AROUND IT.
I IMAGINE THIS WORKS' GONNA HAVE TO BE DONE AT SOME POINT.
AND THEN JUST THE DATE THAT YOU GAVE ON HOW OLD THIS PIPELINE IS.
OH, I'M SURE IT'S BEEN IMPROVED SINCE THEN, SIR.
I MEAN, I WELL, I I WOULD RATHER YOU DO BATTLE WITH, WITH, UH, THE PIPELINE COMPANY THAN WE DO.
YOU KNOW, I'D RATHER YOU DO BATTLE WITH THE PIPELINE COMPANY NOW.
LET'S FIND OUT, LET'S FIND OUT WHAT THE, WHAT, WHAT THE REAL IMPROVEMENT NEEDS TO BE.
I DON'T HAVE ANY REASON TO THINK THAT THE PIPELINE COMPANY IS GONNA BATTLE WITH THE TOWNSHIP.
WHY? WHY? 'CAUSE EVERYONE ELSE DOES.
'CAUSE THEY HAVE NOT, 'CAUSE THERES, BECAUSE THERE'S NO LEGAL MECHANISM, THERE'S NO, THERE'S NO LEGAL THEORY UNDER WHICH BUCKEYE COULD TO REPLACE THEIR OWN CASE.
BUT YOU'RE SAYING WHEN WE RIDE THE ROAD, IS IT NO, NO.
[01:30:01]
CAN JUST EXTEND THE CASEMENT OR THEY CAN REPLACE IT.I'M, I THINK THEY HAVE MORE MONEY THAN EVERYONE SITTING IN THIS ROOM.
I THINK WE SHOULD WAIT AND TABLE IT IF WE CAN.
JOE, LET'S INVESTIGATE THE, UM, THE OPTION YOU MENTIONED, I SCROLL.
I MEAN I'M SURE THEY'RE ANXIOUS TO GET ROLLING, BUT, UH, IF YOU CAN LIVE WITH ANOTHER TRIP IN, TRY TO HAVE PRODUCTIVE CONVERSATION IN THE MEANTIME.
I DID ALSO WANT TO CONFIRM THAT, UH, WE HAVE, WE DO HAVE AN AGREEMENT WITH THE APPLICANT THAT'S BEEN FINALIZED.
YOU KNOW, THEY'RE DOING SOME OF THE WORK FOR THE TOWNSHIP WORK THAT WOULD, WOULD'VE NOT, WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN REQUIRED.
BUT WE HAVE THE BENEFIT OF THEM ALREADY BEING ON SITE OUT AT THE CURVE.
AND SO THEY'RE GOING TO DO SOME WIDENING AND IMPROVEMENTS.
AND IN THE APPROVAL RESOLUTION, WE SAID THAT WE WOULD FINE TUNE THAT NUMBER AFTER WE GOT BETTER OUR NUMBERS.
AND WE HAVE NOW FINE TUNED THAT NUMBER AND COME TO, UH, NUMBERS THAT WERE CIRCULATED BY BOWMAN AND WHICH THE APPLICANT AGREES WITH.
SO WE ARE LOCKED IN ON THOSE NUMBERS AND WE JUST WANTED THAT TO BE A PART OF THE MINUTES.
SO THEY HAD SOMETHING TO REFER TO BACK LATER ON.
AND, AND I, AND I KNOW THAT THE TOWNSHIP IS BUSY AND THAT YOU ALL HAVE HIGHER PRIORITY ITEMS ON YOUR LIST.
BUT I, AND TO THE EXTENT THAT YOU DON'T REMEMBER EVERY DETAIL OF THIS PROJECT, I WOULD REMIND YOU, BECAUSE I DO GET THE FEELING THAT THERE'S SOME SORT OF, UM, IMPLICATION THAT PERHAPS WE'RE TRYING TO BE, UM, NOT ACTING IN GOOD FAITH ON THIS PROJECT.
AND WE'VE ALREADY DELAYED, WE, WE DELAYED THIS PROJECT AT THE VERY BEGINNING TO ALLOW THE TOWNSHIP TO INVESTIGATE APPRAISALS AND ROUNDABOUTS.
AND WE VOLUNTARILY, UM, BASICALLY WE'VE LOST A YEAR ALREADY, UM, TRYING TO WORK IN GOOD FAITH WITH THE TOWNSHIP.
SO I DO JUST RESENT TO THE EXTENT THAT YOU MEANT TO IMPLY MR. STARLING, THAT WE WERE TRYING TO SHIRK SOME SORT OF RESPONSIBILITY TO THE TOWNSHIP AND ITS RESIDENCE.
ALRIGHT, WELL, WE'LL IF WE CAN REVISIT IT ONE MORE TIME.
AND I, I APPRECIATE YOUR PATIENCE.
DID WE WANT TO TABLE THAT? 'CAUSE WE DECIDED AN EXECUTIVE SESSION TO WAIT.
I, I THINK IT WOULD BE BETTER TO CONTINUE DOING WORK ON IT BEFORE IT BECAME AN AGENDA ITEM.
SO THE NEXT ONE IS A MOTION FOR BADGE NUMBER 53.
I, PURSUANT TO OUR DISCUSSION IN EXECUTIVE SESSION EARLIER THIS EVENING, I WILL MAKE A MOTION TO AUTHORIZE THE EXECUTION OF A SETTLEMENT AGREEMENT WITH FORMER POLICE OFFICER BADGE NUMBER 53 REGARDING A PERSONNEL MATTER.
[MANAGER AND DEPARTMENT HEAD REPORTS]
NEXT WE ARE, UH, TIM WILL REVIEW OF PROPOSED CHANGE TO THE SOLICITATION ORDINANCE.THIS INVOLVES A REQUEST FROM OUR POLICE CHIEF TO ADD A NO CONTACT LIST.
I THINK THIS IS A, YOU, YOU CAN MAYBE GIVE A LITTLE BIT OF THE BACKSTORY.
AND IT'S A LITTLE AMENDMENT TO THE SOLICITATION ORDINANCE.
SO TYPICALLY, YOU KNOW, WHEN THE SPRING TIME COMES, UH, A LOT OF SOLICITORS COME UP IN PROVIDENCE, THE SOLICIT, UH, YOU KNOW, FOR THEIR BUSINESS.
UM, THE FLIP SIDE OF THAT IS THAT THE POLICE DEPARTMENT GETS A NUMBER OF ANGER RESIDENTS, UH, UH, COMPLAINING ABOUT SOLICITATION.
UH, SOME SOLICITORS THAT COME IN ARE, ARE VERY PROFESSIONAL, UH, WHILE OTHERS ARE A LITTLE QUESTIONABLE IN THEIR TACTICS.
UM, SO, UH, WE SUBSCRIBED TO A, UM, UH, AN ORGANIZATION CALLED, UH, CRIME WATCH, UH, TO PUT OUT INFORMATION TO THE PUBLIC.
THEY CAME UP WITH AN IDEA TO, UH, HAVE A QUICK LINK ON THE WEBSITE THAT, UH, WE HAVE, UH, WHICH SAYS DO NOT SOLICIT.
A RESIDENT CAN ACTUALLY GO AND CLICK ON THAT AND FILL OUT A FORM WHICH AUTOMATICALLY COMES TO OUR POLICE DEPARTMENT.
IT ESSENTIALLY GIVES US THEIR NAME AND THEIR ADDRESS, AND THAT THEY DON'T WISH A SOLICITOR TO COME, UH, TO THEIR HOUSE.
WHEN SOLICITORS COME IN, WE THEN PROVIDE THE SOLICITOR WITH THE ADDRESSES ONLY THAT THEY'RE NOT ALLOWED TO SOLICIT THAT.
UM, IT'S, IT'S, IT'S CATCHING A LOT OF, UH, UM, UH, ATTRACTION, UH, 'CAUSE PEOPLE REALLY APPRECIATE THAT, THAT THERE'S SOME PEOPLE THAT INVITE, YOU KNOW, SOLICITORS TO
[01:35:01]
THE PRODUCT.UH, BUT THERE ARE, WHAT'S THAT SAYING? FLY IT IS, IT'S OVER HERE TOO.
UM, BUT ANYWAYS, I, I REACHED OUT TO, UH, OUR SOLICITOR AND THEN TOLD HIM ABOUT THE IDEA AND, UM, HE CAME UP WITH SOME LANGUAGE JUST TO KIND OF, UH, INCORPORATE WHAT WE ARE ALREADY PRACTICING INTO THE, UH, UPDATING THE ORDINANCE.
SO DOES EVERYONE WHO'S SOLICIT HAVE TO COME IN AND REGISTER AND THAT'S HOW THEY FIND OUT WHO'S ON THE LIST.
AND ANYTIME THE LIST IS ACTUALLY, UH, UPDATED BECAUSE WE MIGHT GET, UH, YOU KNOW, 10 WEEK, UH, ALL THE SOLICITORS THAT HAVE ALREADY BEEN APPROVED FOR SOLICITING WILL GET THE, UPDATE THE LIST BY THE CONTACT INFORMATION THAT WE, THEY PROVIDE WHEN THEY, THEY FIRST COME IN.
PEOPLE WHO ARE, YOU KNOW, THEY HAVE DIFFERENT CATEGORIES OF PEOPLE WHO COME TO YOUR DOOR.
PEOPLE WHO ARE ESPOUSING IDEAS OR POLITICAL OR RELIGIOUS THOUGHT OR IDEOLOGY ARE, ARE THE MOST PROTECTED FROM A FREE SPEECH STANDPOINT.
SO THEY DON'T HAVE TO REGISTER.
IT'S ALWAYS MADE AVAILABLE TO THEM.
MOST OF THOSE ORGANIZATIONS DO 'CAUSE IT'S SMART TO, BUT THEY DON'T HAVE TO.
IF THEY DIDN'T, IF IF THEY, IF THEY DIDN'T REGISTER, THEN THAT'S WHY THE ORDINANCE SAYS THEY ALSO HAVE TO ABIDE BY ANY SIGNS ON THE PROPERTY TO COVER THOSE PEOPLE WHO POST THEIR OWN PROPERTY.
SO IF THEY DON'T GO CHECK WITH THE DEPARTMENT TO SEE WHO'S ON THE LIST AND THEY DON'T REGISTER, THEY, THEY'RE STILL TOLD AT THE SITE, YOU'RE, THEY'RE NOT WELCOME.
I HAVE, I HAVE A QUESTION, UH, FOR JOE.
UM, TOM HAD SENT YOU
UM, YEAH, I DIDN'T RESPOND TO HIM YET, BUT THAT PROTECTS A WHOLE DIFFERENT INTEREST.
SO WHEN YOU'RE, THE SOLICITATION ORDINANCE IS, WHAT IT'S DOING IS PROTECTING THE PRIVACY OF YOUR HOME, UM, FROM UNWANTED INTRUSION.
THE SUPREME COURT PLACES THE HIGHEST LEVEL OF VALUE ON THE PRIVACY OF, OF YOUR HOME.
YOU KNOW, HE, HE, HE WAS ASKING ME ABOUT, UH, REMEDIATION COMPANIES THAT SHOW UP AT FIRE SCENES TO, YOU KNOW, TRY LOOK FOR LOOKING FOR WORK.
UM, I THINK THAT'S A WHOLE DIFFERENT ANIMAL THAT, I'M NOT SAYING WE CAN'T DO IT, BUT I DON'T THINK IT WOULD BE IN THIS ORDINANCE BECAUSE THIS ORDINANCE IS REGULATING METHODIC DOOR-TO-DOOR SOLICITATION WITH PLACARDS AND STUFF AT LIKE, ORDINARY TIMES AS OPPOSED TO THEM LISTENING TO THE RADIO AND PICKING UP ON FIRE CALLS AND GOING THERE.
AND WE'LL, WE WILL LOOK TO, WE'LL, WE'LL LOOK DRAFT SOMETHING.
WHAT FOR, FOR THE BOARD, WHAT HAPPENS IS EVERY SINGLE TIME THAT WE HAVE A FIRE, WE ARE INUNDATED WITH THE AMBULANCE CHASERS, EXCEPT THEY'RE FIRE CHASERS NOW.
UM, AND GENERALLY WE LET THEM KNOW THAT THEY DON'T HAVE A SOLICITING PERMIT AND THEY HAVE TO LEAVE.
BUT WE WANNA MAKE SURE THAT OUR, OUR SOLICITATION PERMIT ACTUALLY IS ACTUALLY COVER THIS TO MAKE SURE THAT WE HAVE SOME AUTHORITY TO PUT SOME TEETH BEHIND THAT.
UM, I MEAN, THEY ARE ARGUABLY IN VIOLATION.
NOW IF THEY DO THAT EVERY TIME, EVEN WITH THIS CURRENT, EVEN WITH THIS CURRENT ORDINANCE, EVEN BEFORE THERE'S THE NO SOLICITATION LIST, THEY ARE FAILING TO COME CHECK, TO COME REGISTER.
I SUPPOSE YOU COULD CITE THEM UNDER THAT EVEN NOW IF THEY'RE GOING TO, I MEAN, IT DEPENDS ON THE SCENARIO.
IF THE HOUSE IS ON FIRE OF PEOPLE, ASSUME THEY'RE NOT WALKING UP TO THE FRONT DOOR.
THEY, THEY WILL CALL, THEY, THEY'VE CALLED PEOPLE'S FAMILIES.
THEY'VE CALLED, THEY, THEY'VE GONE, THEY CHASED PEOPLE TO THE HOTEL WHERE THEY'RE STAYING.
THEY, UM, PEOPLE IN ONE PARTICULAR FIRE, THE MOTHER OF THE RESIDENT FOUND OUT THAT HER SON'S HOUSE WAS ON FIRE.
'CAUSE THE SOLICITOR, THE, UH, THE BOARD UP COMPANY WENT TO HER HOUSE TO GET PERMISSION TO DO THE BOARD UP AT THEIR HOUSE.
UM, IT'S, THEY'RE, THEY'RE BRUTAL.
AND THEN THERE'S USUALLY THREE OR FOUR OF 'EM THAT SHOW UP EACH TIME.
SO AS LONG AS MY QUESTION WAS, WAS IT SOMETHING THAT WE SHOULD LOOK TO PUT IN THIS PARTICULAR PART? IT DOESN'T SOUND LIKE IT SHOULD BE.
DOES, DOES, DOES THE, DOES A, DOES A FIRE SCENE BECOME CONTROLLED BY THE DEPARTMENT OR THE FIRE POLICE TO NOT THAT BE THAT THEY WOULDN'T BE ALLOWED TO BE ON THE SCENE? IT'S OURS.
IT'S OURS UNTIL WE RELEASE IT.
IT'S A FIRE DEPARTMENT'S SCENE UNTIL WE RELEASE IT.
SO THAT'S HOW, THAT'S HOW WE GO ABOUT IT.
WE'LL DRAFT SOMETHING ALONG THOSE LINES, BUT IT, BUT IT CONTINUES EVEN WHEN WE LEAVE.
MY, MY QUESTION SPECIFICALLY WAS SHOULD IT BE INCLUDED OR SHOULD WE LOOK TO INCLUDE IN WHAT WE'RE DOING TONIGHT? BUT IT SOUNDS LIKE IT WOULD BE BETTER IF WE DRAFTED SOMETHING INDIVIDUAL TO ADDRESS PART THIS SITUATION IN PARTICULAR.
SO THERE'S SOLICITING TO DO WORK ON THE HOUSE THAT BURNED, RIGHT? SO, UM, WANT EITHER BOARD IT UP OR THEY WANT TO CLEAN IT OR THEY'RE, WE, WE,
[01:40:01]
WE, WE HAVE A LIST OF, UM, BOARD UP COMPANIES THAT WE GIVE TO THE RESIDENTS.UM, AND WE HAVE CRITERIA THAT WE ASK THEM TO MEET.
UM, SOME OF IT'S RESPONSE TIME, SOME OF IT'S THEIR ABILITY TO WORK DIRECTLY WITH THE INSURANCE COMPANY AND NOT THROUGH AN INSURANCE ADJUSTER.
UH, SOME OF IT IS THEIR, UM, LETTERS OF RECOMMENDATION AND THEY MEET ALL THAT REQUIREMENT.
WE PUT THEM ON OUR LIST AND WE GIVE THAT TO THE HOMEOWNER.
WE DON'T MAKE A SPECIFIC RECOMMENDATION TO USE A PARTICULAR BOARD OF COMPANY, BUT WE WANT COMPANIES THAT WE KNOW WHEN WE, WHEN WE GIVE TO THE RESIDENTS, THAT IT'S SOMEBODY THAT WE, UM, ARE SURE THAT WE'RE RECOMMENDING WILL GIVE THEM GOOD SERVICE AND, AND BENEFIT THEM.
ESPECIALLY IF IT'S COMING FROM US.
'CAUSE THAT'S REALLY WHO THEY'RE LOOKING TO.
THE COMPANIES THAT ARE SHOWING UP HAVEN'T MET OR DON'T MEET THOSE REQUIREMENTS.
THEY JUST, THEY, A LOT OF 'EM COME TO PHILLY.
UM, THEY HEAR IT ON THE SCANNER AND THEY KNOW THAT THERE'S A FIRE AND OFF THEY COME AND WE'RE LEAVING.
THEY'RE THERE WHEN WE'RE THERE.
IT'S LIKE I SAID, THEY, THEY, THEY'LL CHASE 'EM.
THEY CHASE THEM TO THE HOTEL WHERE THEY'RE STAYING AND THEY'RE, THEY'RE RELENTLESS.
SO WE CAN, BUT IT IS, IT IS SOMETHING WE CAN ADDRESS.
UM, LATER ON, LIKE I SAID, MY REALIZE WAS, WANTED TO MAKE SURE THERE WASN'T THIS PARTICULAR WORD, SO WE SHOULD INCLUDE IT IN IT SOUNDS LIKE THAT SUITED TO DO IT INDIVIDUALLY.
ENGINEERING AND CAPITAL IMPROVEMENT PROJECT UPDATES.
I HAVE AN UPDATE ON THE ROAD, A PAVING PROJECT.
UM, THE A DA RAMPS, INLETS, MANHOLES FRAMES AND COVERS.
WE WERE ANTICIPATING MILLING AND PAVING IN JUNE.
THAT'S GONNA BE DELAYED UNTIL JULY BECAUSE PICO'S OUT THERE REPLACING ELECTRIC LINES SIMULTANEOUSLY.
SO WE'RE JUST GONNA DELAY THE PAVING SLIGHTLY SO THAT THEY DON'T MESS UP THEIR NEW ROAD.
[CONSULTANT REPORTS]
APPROVING THE MONTHLY DEVELOPER IMPROVEMENT GUARANTEE.EVERYTHING'S ALL SQUARE WITH THESE JEFF? YES.
I'LL MAKE A MOTION THEN TO, UH, TO, UH, UH, APPROVE THE, UH, MONTHLY DEVELOPER IMPROVEMENT GUARANTEE REDUCTION LIST AS FOLLOWS.
ITEM A MEADOWS AT LONGVIEW RELEASE NUMBER FOUR IN THE AMOUNT OF $943,127 AND 39 CENTS.
ITEM B, CAT SKILLS FARMS RELEASE NUMBER ONE $86,206 AND 90 CENTS.
ITEM C OXFORD LEE, FINAL RELEASE 98 IN THE AMOUNT OF $98,420 AND 18 CENTS.
DO WE HAVE A MOTION AND A SECOND? ALL THOSE IN FAVOR SAY AYE.
ALL THOSE OPPOSED OCEAN CARRIES.
[UPCOMING EVENTS]
UPCOMING EVENTS.THERE'S BOARD OF SUPERVISORS MEETING SCHEDULED JULY 15TH AND AUGUST 19TH, BOTH AT SEVEN.
PLANNING AND COMMISSION MEETING JUNE 19TH AT SEVEN.
UM, IT'S ROARS FOR BACK BAPTIST CHURCH PRE-APPLICATION DISCUSSION FOR 7 6 5 SOUTH COLLEGEVILLE ROAD.
UH, JULY 3RD AT SEVEN IS CANCELED.
JULY 17TH AT SEVEN IS ABOUT THE MENNONITE ROAD NINE LOT SUBDIVISION COMPREHENSIVE PLAN.
UM, ENVIRONMENTAL ADVISORY COUNCIL MEETING IS JULY 17TH AT SIX PARK AND REC COMMISSION.
UH, COMMITTEE MEETING IS, UH, MEETINGS FOR JULY AND AUGUST HAVE BEEN CANCELED.
THERE'S ONE FOR SEPTEMBER 11TH AND THAT IS AT SIX.
AND MUNICIPAL AUTHORITY MEETING SCHEDULE IS AUGUST 1ST AT SEVEN.
THERE IS NO PENDING APPLICATIONS, SO I'LL ASK FOR MOTION FOR AMENDMENT.
I'LL MAKE A MOTION TO ADJOURN.