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NOT BE HEARD BY A, OKAY.[CALL TO ORDER]
I'M GONNA CALL TO ORDER THE PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING FOR WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 20TH.UM, AND WE ARE, UM, A FEW PEOPLE SHORT THIS EVENING, BUT WE'RE, WE GOT A QUORUM, SO WE'RE GONNA MOVE FORWARD.
UM, SO FIRST OF ALL, I'LL TAKE ANY PUBLIC COMMENT ON NON AGENDA ITEMS. FIRST OF ALL, YOU SHOULD APPROVE THE AGENDA.
YOU DON'T HAVE THAT ON? OH YEAH.
LET'S, UH, WE THAT, DID YOU GIVE US THE AGENDA OR THE, UH, MINUTE? UH, NO, WE DON'T HAVE MINUTES THIS MONTH BECAUSE THERE'S, WE ONLY DO THE FIRST MEETING.
SO DO WE, UH, THE AGENDA, EVERYBODY'S HAD A CHANCE TO LOOK AT IT.
UH, IT'S NOT REAL, UH, REAL STIFF THIS EVENING.
UM, BUT ARE THERE ANY COMMENTS? AND MARK, I'LL TAKE A MOTION TO APPROVE THEM.
I'LL MAKE A MOTION TO APPROVE THE AGENDA.
WE'VE APPROVED THE AGENDA AS SHORT AS IT MAY BE, AND THEN I'LL TAKE A PUBLIC COMMENT FOR ANY NON AGENDA ITEM.
EVERYBODY'S GOT A COPY OF THE AGENDA OUT THERE.
ANY PUBLIC COMMENTS ON ANYTHING THAT'S NOT ON THE AGENDA, NOT HEARING ANY, WE'LL MOVE ON.
[GENERAL DISCUSSION ITEMS]
DISCUSSION TONIGHT.THE PLAN WAS TO CONTINUE OUR DISCUSSION ON THE COMPREHENSIVE PLAN.
UM, WE'RE GONNA HAND IT OFF TO JEN AND, AND ANTHONY AND LET THEM FIGHT OVER WHO GOES FIRST.
UM, AND THEY'RE GONNA BE TALKING ABOUT TRAFFIC AND COMMUNITY FACILITIES WITH THE IDEA OF STORMWATER AND SEWER.
DO YOU HAVE A PREFERENCE? UM, DO I HAVE A PREFERENCE?
I DON'T, JEN, I DON'T THINK WE HAVE A PREFERENCE.
WELL, IF IT'S NOT TOO SEXIST, WE'LL HAVE LADIES GO FIRST.
SO, LET'S START WITH THE HANDOUT I GAVE YOU.
THAT IS THE CHAPTER 94 SUMMARY.
OKAY? THIS IS GOING TO BE IN REGARDS TO SANITARY SEWER.
AND, UM, I'M GONNA GO BACK TO THE 2010 COMPREHENSIVE PLAN STARTS THERE.
ALL THAT WAS IN THERE IS REGARDING THE ACT 5 37 PLAN, WHICH TALKS ABOUT SEWER COVERAGE FOR THE TOWNSHIP PLANNING EDS CAPACITY IN THE LINES, CAPACITY IN THE TREATMENT PLAN.
SO ANNUALLY WE PREPARE A CHAPTER 94 REPORT, WHICH IS REALLY WHAT MY EXHIBIT TONIGHT IS GOING TO SHOW YOU.
UM, THAT'S, I KNOW, IT'S SO BIG.
THAT'S WHY I PRINTED THEM TOO.
SO, IN THE CHAPTER 94 SUMMARY, UM, THERE'S A SHORT NARRATIVE IN THE FRONT.
IT TALKS ABOUT THE REPORTING THAT WE DO, AND THAT'S THE HIGHLIGHTED AREA, WHICH TALKS ABOUT THE CHAPTER 94 REPORT.
UM, THIS IS THE REPORT THAT WAS PREPARED FOR 2022.
SO YOU CAN SEE IT'S NOT SUPER HUGE, BUT TOO MUCH TO GO IN A COMPREHENSIVE PLAN.
SO WHAT I DID WAS I GAVE YOU TWO HANDOUTS.
UM, THE FIRST ONE IS THE ACTUAL FIGURE FROM THE CHAPTER 94 REPORT.
IT SHOWS WHERE ALL THE PIPE SYSTEMS ARE.
IT SHOWS WHICH DEVELOPMENTS IN THE, UM, TOWNSHIP ARE, UM, TRIBUTARY TO WHICH PUMP STATION.
THERE'S A LOT OF INFORMATION ON THERE, AND IT'S JUST TOO MUCH AND TOO DETAILED.
SO WHAT I REALLY WANTED YOU TO GLEAN FROM THAT PLAN IS THE SECOND PAGE, WHICH IS THE GREEN AND PURPLE SHADING PLAN.
YOU CAN SEE IT'S THE SAME BASE PLAN SHOWS THE ENTIRE TOWNSHIP.
AND WHAT I WANTED TO SHOW YOU, AND THIS REALLY REFLECTS WHAT JEFF HAD SPOKEN ABOUT, UM, IN HIS COMPREHENSIVE, UM, PLAN DISCUSSIONS PREVIOUSLY, THE AMOUNT OF DEVELOPABLE AREA THAT'S LEFT IN THE TOWNSHIP.
SO THE GREEN ON THIS PLAN SHOWS THE PROPERTIES IN THE TOWNSHIP THAT CURRENTLY HAVE PUBLIC SEWER, UM, AVAILABILITY TO THEM AND ARE UTILIZING THAT.
THE COUPLE PURPLE AREAS ARE WHAT I'M GONNA CALL PLANNED, YOU'VE ALREADY SEEN THEM BEFORE.
THE LARGER PURPLE SQUARE IS THE NEW TAYLOR PARK PUMP STATION THAT WILL GO IN, UM, WITH THE KLEIN ROAD DEVELOPMENT.
WE TALKED ABOUT THE TOWNSHIP LINE SEWER EXTENSION THAT'S COMING IN FOR FIVE LOTS AT THE VERY TIPPY TOP.
AND THAT'S ALMOST NON-EXISTENT ON HERE.
IT'S SUCH A SMALL PIECE OF PURPLE.
UM, ALSO AT THE NORTHERN END OF THE TOWNSHIP IS THE GREENWOOD AVE SEWER EXTENSION.
UM, THAT'S IN FOR A GRANT APPLICATION RIGHT NOW.
AND WE SHOULD HEAR THIS MONTH.
AND THEN THE PURPLE AREAS IN THE MIDDLE OF THE TOWNSHIP ARE THE YORKEY
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STATION PROPERTY AND 1 72 HOPWOOD.WE KNOW THEY'RE COMING, THEY'VE ALREADY GOTTEN PLANNING EXEMPTION FROM D E P.
UM, SO THIS PLAN, THIS GREEN AND PURPLE, IS REALLY JUST TO SHOW YOU WHO CURRENTLY HAS SEWERS, THE PURPLE'S COMING IN AND BEING PLANNED FOR SEWER.
AND THEN THE WHITE AREA IS, I'M GONNA CALL IT OPEN AT THIS POINT.
IT INCLUDES TRACKS LIKE A RAIDER, THE PARK HOUSE PROPERTY.
UM, BUT SO MUCH OF IT IS ACTUALLY THE 4 22 CORRIDOR AND OPEN SPACE WITHIN THE TOWNSHIP.
SO THIS REALLY GIVES YOU A GOOD SNAPSHOT OF THE TOWNSHIP OF HOW MUCH INFRASTRUCTURE YOU'VE ALREADY PUT IN PLACE AND WHAT'S AVAILABLE TO YOUR RESIDENTS.
UM, BIG EXPENSES COMING UP IN THE FUTURE WOULD REALLY JUST BE ONGOING MAINTENANCE.
UM, THE SECOND AVENUE FORCE MAIN WILL BE, NEED TO BE REPLACED, THINGS LIKE THAT.
BUT I CAN'T GIVE YOU BIG PURPLE PLANNED AREAS BECAUSE YOU'RE REALLY BUILT OUT AT THIS POINT CLOSE.
LIKE I SAID, YOU HAVE SOME LARGER TRACKS.
PARKHOUSE IS IN THERE, THE RADAR PROPERTIES IN THERE.
UM, BUT EVEN DOWN BY S E I OVER THERE, IT IS OPEN SPACE.
THERE'S THE COMMUNITY PARK AREA DOWN ALONG 4 22.
UM, SO EVEN THE WHITE AREAS ON HERE, WHEREAS YOU DO HAVE SOME GAPS, IT'S REALLY JUST INFIELD PROPERTIES AND NOT HUGE TRACKS OF LAND.
UM, IS PARKHOUSE, UH, HAPPENS OR SOMETHING HAPPENS.
WHERE WOULD THEY BE? DO WE HAVE THE CAPACITY TO HANDLE WHAT THEY'RE PROPOSING? SO THEY WILL HAVE TO STUDY THAT.
THEY WILL GO RIGHT INTO THE INTERCEPTOR LINE THAT RUNS THROUGH THE SCHULL COUNTY PARK PROPERTY WHERE THE LITTLE ZOO IS DOWN THERE.
UM, THEY WILL HAVE TO STUDY THAT FROM THAT POINT DOWN TO THE TREATMENT PLANT DOWN IN OAKS AND DETERMINE THAT EACH SEGMENT OF LINE HAS THE CAPACITY TO CONVEY IT DOWN THERE.
AS FAR AS THE TREATMENT PLANT, YES, THEY HAVE THE CAPACITY TO TREAT IT.
WE JUST HAVE TO MAKE SURE THEY CAN GET IT THERE.
AND THAT'S PART OF WHAT THE CHAPTER 94 REPORTING SHOWS.
UM, JUST ANOTHER TIDBIT I HAVE, GOING BACK TO THE 2010, UM, EXCERPT ON THE 5 37 PLAN, THERE WAS A PROJECTION FOR 2020 AND IT WAS 14,320 S WHERE WHAT WAS ANTICIPATED TO BE NEEDED.
AND LIKE I SAID, I PULLED UP THIS PAST, UH, 94 REPORT, 14,125.
SO IT'S PRETTY IMPRESSIVE THAT, UM, AND THAT'S TODAY, YOU KNOW, THAT'S NOT 2020 WHERE THIS IS A 2022 REPORT, UM, BUT PRETTY CLOSE FROM, FROM A PLANNING PERSPECTIVE.
NOW, OF THOSE 14,000 EDS THAT HAVE BEEN ALLOCATED, SO IN OTHER WORDS, SOMEBODY'S PURCHASED THE EDS, THESE CAN BE LARGER TRACKS OF LAND THAT, UM, THINK OF THE TOWN CENTER, YOU KNOW, THEY WOULD'VE PURCHASED, AND I DON'T, I DON'T KNOW THEIR NUMBER.
I CAN LOOK IT UP IF YOU'RE CURIOUS ABOUT IT.
THEY MIGHT HAVE PURCHASED 200 EDS FOR THAT TRACT OF LAND, BUT AS TENANTS COME AND GO, THEY'RE ONLY USING 75 OR UNTIL IT GETS LEASED OUT, YOU KNOW, IT'LL BE A WHILE TILL THEY HIT THE 200.
SO EVEN THOUGH 14,000 EDS HAVE BEEN PLANNED AT THIS POINT, THERE ARE ONLY 10,654 THAT HAVE CURRENTLY BEEN CONNECTED.
UM, SO THERE'S A LITTLE BIT OF A WALL THERE.
BUT, SO THAT'S WHAT I HAVE FOR SEWER.
LIKE I SAID, THERE'S, UM, YOU'VE REALLY GOT A LOT OF INFRASTRUCTURE IN THE TOWNSHIP.
UM, SO THE TAYLOR PARK COM STATION WILL GO IN THAT IS PLANNED FOR ANOTHER, I BELIEVE IT'S 120, UM, PROPERTIES UP THERE.
THEY'LL HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO CONNECT TO THAT.
UM, JUST BECAUSE AREAS ARE GREEN ON HERE DOESN'T MEAN, UM, PEOPLE HAVE CONNECTED.
SO IN OTHER WORDS, THE SEWER LINE EXTENSION OVER IN ROSEMONT, UM, AND THAT AREA THAT HAPPENED WITH THE TINDY RUN PUMP STATION, WHEN YOU CONSTRUCT THAT, WHEN THE TOWNSHIP PUTS NEW SEWER EXTENSIONS IN, YOU DON'T REQUIRE PEOPLE TO IMMEDIATELY TAP IN.
SO NOT EVERY PROPERTY THAT IS SHOWN IN GREEN ON HERE, UM, IS CURRENTLY CONTRIBUTING TO THE SYSTEM.
BUT YOU HAVE THE INFRASTRUCTURE THAT WOULD ALLOW THEM TO CONNECT ANYTIME THEY'RE, THEY'RE INTERESTED.
I'LL ALSO ADD THAT LIKE THE RAIDER PROPERTY CANNOT DEVELOP.
I MEAN, THE, THE DEVELOPMENT RIGHTS FROM THAT ARE, ARE SOLD.
UM, OBVIOUSLY PARKHOUSE, WE KNOW THAT THERE, THERE'S DISCUSSION ABOUT THAT, FOR LACK OF A BETTER TERM.
UM, I THINK THAT, AS I TALKED ABOUT LAST WEEK WITH THE EXISTING LAND USE, OR TWO WEEKS AGO, THE AREA TO THE WEST OF PARKHOUSE WHERE IT SAYS, UH, MINGLE RUN PUMP STATION IN THERE, AND THAT THAT'S A LARGE WHITE BLOCK.
[00:10:01]
THAT, THAT WAS ONE OF THE AREAS THAT I SAID, WELL, I THOUGHT A LOT OF DEVELOPMENT MAY COME INTO THE TOWNSHIP.THAT THAT MIGHT BE, YOU KNOW, SOMETIMES IF YOU LOOK AT OUR AGENDA, YOU CAN SEE THAT ALL OF THE, ALL OF THE APPLICATIONS ARE FROM ONE AREA, WHETHER IT IS, YOU KNOW, LIKE THE, THE RIDGE PIKE CORRIDOR FOR A WHILE WAS, WAS THAT'S WHERE WE WERE GETTING ALL THE, ALL THE APPLICATIONS.
I WOULDN'T BE SURPRISED IF IN THE NEXT FIVE YEARS OR SO IF SEWER COMES THROUGH PARKHOUSE AND CONNECTS DOWN ON THE OTHER SIDE OF OLD STATE ROAD, THAT THOSE PROPERTIES GET TO GET A LITTLE BIT MORE PUSH TO GET DEVELOPED AGAINST THAT WHITE AREA.
DIDN'T THE POWER LINES RUN THROUGH THERE? AND, AND THAT'S PART OF THE, ALSO THAT'S SOME OF THE ALSO PROBLEMS WITH IT IS THERE'S POWER LINES THROUGH THERE.
THERE'S, YOU KNOW, THE ROAD NETWORK IS A LITTLE HINKY.
UM, YOU KNOW, BUT AGAIN, THAT'S, THAT'S SORT OF WHAT THE WHOLE, THAT'S WHAT THE, THE, THESE STEPS ARE FOR, TO HELP US UNDERSTAND WHERE DEVELOPMENT MIGHT HAPPEN AND WHERE INFRASTRUCTURE'S IN PLACE TO LET DEVELOPMENT HAPPEN, LIKE THE LEWIS ROAD AREA, UM, BECAUSE WE'RE PUTTING THAT PUMP STATION IN OR WHERE IT MAY GO IN, IF SEWER WERE TO COME BACK INTO THE TOWNSHIP, COME INTO THOSE AREAS OF THE TOWNSHIP.
SO OVERALL, JIM, WHAT YOU'RE SAYING IS WE'RE PRETTY GOOD SHAPE IN TERMS OF, WE GOT A LOT OF CAPACITY, BUT NO MORE LAND TO PRODUCE.
IS THAT A, I DON'T KNOW THAT NO MORE.
I MEAN, YOU HAVE SOME, SOME, BUT YOU, IT SOUNDS LIKE WE, IF, IF, IF, IF WHAT YOU'RE SAYING IS WE GOT THE CAPACITY TO HANDLE SOMETHING AS LARGE AS WHAT THEY'RE PROPOSING FOR A PARK HOUSE MM-HMM.
LIKE I SAID, SO FOR SEWER, THERE'S, THERE'S THREE STEPS, AND THIS IS WHAT D E P LOOKS AT.
YOU HAVE COLLECTION, CONVEYANCE, AND TREATMENT.
SO UPPER PROVIDENCE TOWNSHIP OWNS THEIR OWN SEWER.
SO YOU'RE DOING NOT ONLY THE COLLECTION, BUT YOU'RE ALSO DOING THE CONVEYANCE WITHIN.
WHEN YOU GET TO A MAIN, UM, YOU WOULD THEN GO INTO THE INTERCEPTOR.
UM, SO LP B R S A WOULD BE ALSO CONVEYANCE.
AND THEN THEY ARE THE TREATMENT.
SO THOSE ARE THE THREE STEPS YOU LOOK AT.
AND FOR THE PARK HOUSE YOU HAVE, THEY WOULD PUT THEIR OWN COLLECTION SYSTEM IN.
THAT'S WHAT WOULD BE IN THEIR STREETS.
AND ON THEIR SITE, THEY WOULD ANALYZE THE CONVEYANCE TO THE TREATMENT PLAN.
BUT THE TREATMENT PLANT HAS CAPACITY.
NOW OF INTERESTING NOTE ON THAT, UM, L P V R S A, THEY WORK ON A FIRST COME FIRST SERVE BASIS.
SO, UM, FOR ALL OF THE MUNICIPALITIES THAT ARE TRIBUTARY TO THAT, IF PARKHOUSE WERE TO COME IN, AND I HATE TO EVEN UTTER THESE WORDS, LET'S NOT DO PARKHOUSE, LET'S DO A PROPERTY ON RIDGE.
PIKE WOULD COME IN AND SAY THEY WANNA BUILD 20,000 UNITS OF SOMETHING.
THEY WOULD NEED 20,000 DU WHETHER IT'S COMMERCIAL OR WHATEVER, THEY COULD COME IN, EAT UP THE REST OF THE CAPACITY IN THE OAKS TREATMENT PLANT.
AND THEN ANYBODY IN ANY OTHER MUNICIPALITY THAT'S TRIBUTARY IS OUT OF LUCK.
SO IT IS PURELY ON A FIRST COME, FIRST SERVE BASIS.
UPPER PROVIDENCE TOWNSHIP DOESN'T HAVE 20% OF THE OAKS TREATMENT PLANT ALLOCATED TO YOU, YOU KNOW, OR DEVELOPMENT WITHIN YOUR MUNICIPALITY.
SO YOU'RE SAYING THE SAME COULD HAPPEN.
SO IF SOMETHING HAPPENED IN PERKIOMEN MM-HMM.
THEY COULD EAT OUR CAPACITY BEFORE.
'CAUSE IT'S NOT EARMARKED FOR ANY MUNICIPALITY ON PERCENTAGE BASIS OR A POPULATION BASIS OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT.
IT'S TRULY FIRST COME, FIRST SERVE, BUT THEY'RE NOT, THEY'RE NOT CLOSE TO CAPACITY AT THIS POINT IN THAT SCENARIO FOR LONG TERM.
THEY COULD EXPAND SOMEWHAT, COULD THEY NOT? THEY COULD.
I THOUGHT ONE OF YOU MIGHT QUESTION.
SO FROM THE 2010 COMP PLAN, UM, THE ACT 5 37 PLAN THAT'S OUT THERE IS ACTUALLY DATED DECEMBER, 2000.
THAT PLAN WAS REQUIRED BY D E P.
TWOFOLD OAKS DID THEIR BIG EXPANSION AND THE INTERCEPTOR PROJECT WAS PLANNED AT THAT POINT.
SO THEY WANTED ALL THE MUNICIPALITIES THAT, UM, WENT TO OAKS TREATMENT PLAN TO UPDATE THEIR 5 37 PLAN AND PUT THEIR PLANNING IN AND MAKE SURE THAT THAT EXPANSION TRULY COVERED WHAT EVERYBODY WAS ANTICIPATING AND PLANNING AT THAT TIME.
IT'S NOW 2023, AND WE HAVE NO THOUGHTS ON THE HORIZON OF REDOING YOUR ACT 5 37 PLAN.
NOW THAT'S KIND OF THE PRETTY PICTURE ACT 5 37 PLAN.
IT'S GONNA KEEP THAT DECEMBER 20TH, 2008.
BUT EACH TIME, UM, A DEVELOPMENT COMES INTO YOU AND NEEDS YOU TO SIGN OFF ON A PLANNING MODULE, YOU GUYS HAVE TO SIGN OFF ON COMPONENT FOUR A OF A PLANNING MODULE.
UM, WE GOT A PLANNING MODULE APPROVAL FOR D E P, FOR THE GREENWOOD AVE STANDARD SEWER EXTENSION, WHICH WILL COVER 10 OR 11 LOTS.
WE DID ONE FOR TOWNSHIP LINE ROAD.
UM, KLINE ROAD DEVELOPMENT IS GOING THROUGH THE PROCESS OF D E P.
[00:15:01]
EVERY TIME YOU GUYS SIGN A COMPONENT FOUR A AND THE SUPERVISOR'S APPROVE A RESOLUTION THAT EFFECTIVELY UPDATES YOUR 5 37 PLAN WITH THE EP.SO EVEN THOUGH YOUR COMP PLAN THAT'S GONNA COME OUT NOW IS STILL GONNA REFERENCE A 5 37 PLAN FROM DECEMBER, 2000, IT'S REALLY ONLY IN THE TITLE COVER PAGE OF THAT ACTUAL REPORT.
YOUR 5 37 PLAN IS UPDATED EVERY TIME A PLANNING MODULE IS DONE, OR EVEN A PLANNING EXCEPTION BECAUSE D E P IS, UM, TRACKING THOSE AS WELL.
SO IN MY ESTIMATION, THE LAST TIME YOUR 5 37 PLAN WAS TOUCHED WAS SEPTEMBER, 2022, AND THAT'S WHEN THE GREENWOOD APP, UM, FACILITY PLANNING MODULE IS APPROVED BY D E P I WOULD ANTICIPATE.
THE NEXT ONE WOULD PROBABLY BE THE KLEIN ROAD DEVELOPMENT, AND THE TAYLOR PARK PUMP STATION IS THE TAYLOR, UM, ROAD PUMP STATION.
WHAT IS THAT? WHERE IS THAT GONNA BE COMPLETE OR WHAT, WHAT IS THAT GOING IN? THAT'S IN THE SUPER EARLY PLANNING STAGES.
THE, UM, THERE'S AN AGREEMENT BETWEEN THE DEVELOPER OF THE KLEIN ROAD PARCEL AND THE TOWNSHIP TO DO A JOINT DESIGN OF THE PUMP STATION.
SO GILMORE ASSOCIATES IS CURRENTLY WORKING ON THE DESIGN.
IT'S SIMILAR IN CAPACITY TO THE TENDY RUN PUMP STATION THAT WAS JUST COMPLETED.
SO WE'RE KIND OF GETTING BANGED FOR THE BUCK, AND THAT'S WHY IT'S A SHARED, WE'RE CONTRIBUTING TO THAT DEVELOPER BY SHARING OUR KNOWLEDGE OF THE TENDY RUN PUMP STATION AND THE PLANS THAT WE JUST DID FOR A SIMILAR SIZE PUMP STATION.
UM, THEY WILL, UM, EVENTUALLY, AND I SAY EVENTUALLY THEY'VE ALREADY GIVEN US THEIR DRAFT PLANNING MODULE.
WE REVIEWED IT, WE HAD A COUPLE COMMENTS, THEY'LL DO SOME UPDATES, I WOULD ANTICIPATE IN THE NEXT WEEK OR TWO.
UM, SO I WOULD EXPECT IN THE NEXT PROBABLY TWO MONTHS, I WOULD THINK, DEFINITELY BEFORE THE END OF THIS YEAR, YOU WILL SEE THEIR PUMP STA UH, THEIR, UM, SEWAGE FACILITIES PLANNING MODULE APPLICATION COME INTO YOU, UM, TO SIGN OFF ON AND SUBMIT TO D E P BY THE END OF THIS YEAR.
THEN IT'LL HAVE TO BE APPROVED.
UM, AND OBVIOUSLY PUMP STATION CONSTRUCTION WILL TAKE MONTHS.
SO, AND WE'RE JUST IN THE DESIGN PHASE OF THAT RIGHT NOW.
I MEAN, IT'S NOT TOO, TOO FAR OFF, BUT IT'S ALSO NOT IMMINENT AT THIS POINT.
ANY OTHER QUESTIONS FOR SEWER, SAN SEWER? SO I THINK I KNOW MORE NOW.
YOU'RE GONNA HAVE A YEAH, BECAUSE I, I WAS DRIVING JEFF NUTS WITH THIS, THIS, WITH ALL THE COLOR ON THIS PLAN.
IT DOESN'T REGENERATE VERY QUICKLY.
AND I SENT HIM A NEW ONE THIS MORNING.
I'M LIKE, THIS ONE MIGHT BE FASTER.
THAT'S WHY YOU ALL HAVE YOUR PAPER HANDOUTS THAT YOU CAN LOOK AT IT IN CASE THE SCREEN FAILED.
THEN WE'LL MOVE ON TO STORMWATER.
THIS BEEN EVEN BIGGER BECAUSE IT HAS AN AERIAL SUPERIMPOSED BEHIND IT.
UM, THERE'S NOTHING IN THE COMP PLAN REGARDING MS FOUR.
I HAVE A, UH, TWO AND A HALF PAGE NARRATIVE FOR YOU.
THE FIRST COUPLE PARAGRAPHS ARE JUST EXPLAINING WHAT AN MS FOUR IS.
UM, IT'S TRULY FOUR WORDS TO START WITH THE LETTER S.
SO IT'S MUNICIPAL SEPARATE STORM SEWER SYSTEM.
AND THAT IS BECAUSE YOUR STORM SEWER SYSTEM IS NOT COMBINED WITH YOUR SANITARY SEWER SYSTEM.
LIKE IT WOULD BE IN A CITY LIKE IN PHILADELPHIA OR PITTSBURGH.
THEY HAVE A COMBINED LINE, YOURS IS JUST STORM WATER.
SO D E P HAS YOU TRACK ALL OF YOUR OUTFALLS AND YOUR STORM WATER THAT YOU CONTRIBUTE TO ALL OF THE SURFACE WATERS, I E CREEKS AND RIVERS IN THE TOWNSHIP.
UM, THAT IS WHAT, UM, IS ON THIS MAP THAT'S SUPER COMPLICATED.
UM, BUT YOU CAN SEE ALL OF THE INFRASTRUCTURE FOR STORM SEWER PIPING.
YOU CAN SEE ALL THE LITTLE SPLOTCHES OF TURQUOISE.
THOSE ARE THE DETENTION BASINS THROUGHOUT THE TOWNSHIP.
AND I WANNA POINT OUT THAT THE MAJORITY OF THOSE ARE PRIVATELY OWNED, NOT TOWNSHIP RESPONSIBILITY FOR MAINTENANCE, EITHER PRIVATELY OWNED ON A HOMEOWNER'S PROPERTY BACK FROM THE SEVENTIES AND EIGHTIES, OR HOMEOWNER'S ASSOCIATION.
WHEN YOU GET INTO DEVELOPMENT WITHIN THE PAST 20 OR SO YEARS, WHEN HOMEOWNERS ASSOCIATIONS BECAME, EXPLAIN TO ME, HOW COME THIS IS SO IMPORTANT THAT THEY DO ALL THIS, BUT YET THEY ALLOW THOSE WATERSHEDS TO BE PRIVATELY OWNED AND MAINTAINED.
I MEAN, HOW, WHAT'S THE THINKING BEHIND THAT? WHAT THEY WANT TO CONTROL IT AT THAT LEVEL ALSO BEFORE IT GETS TO THE WATERSHED OR WHEREVER IT'S GETTING.
[00:20:01]
UM, FROM THE SEVENTIES AND EIGHTIES, THERE WASN'T A LOT OF STORMWATER MANAGEMENT BACK THEN, KIND OF A NEW THING.UM, AND HOMEOWNERS ASSOCIATIONS REALLY DIDN'T EXIST YET EITHER.
IT WASN'T THE THINKING, BUT YES, AS STORMWATER REQUIREMENTS IN D E P AND THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT HAVE GOTTEN MORE COMPLEX, UM, THERE ARE MORE MAINTENANCE REQUIREMENTS.
SO HOMEOWNERS ASSOCIATIONS, BASINS, WHEN YOU GET INTO THE POST-CONSTRUCTION STORMWATER MANAGEMENT DESIGN, THERE ARE MORE OPERATION AND MAINTENANCE.
EVERYTHING HAS JUST GOTTEN BETTER, MORE DETAILED.
UM, SO THE MAINTENANCE REQUIREMENTS ARE MORE, IT'S NICE TO HAVE AN H O A DO THAT VERSUS JOE SCHMO HOMEOWNER, UM, WHO MIGHT HAVE TO TAKE ON THAT RESPONSIBILITY.
BUT IN ANY CASE, THE BASINS THEMSELVES ARE ALL DESIGNED PER THE TOWNSHIP ORDINANCE.
SO THAT'S THE MECHANICAL FUNCTION OF THE BASIN.
SO WHETHER IT HAS, UH, RISER AND HOW MANY HOLES ARE IN THE SIDE OF IT, YOU KNOW, THE ORIFICE IS ALL CONTROL THE FLOW.
SO UNLESS SOMEBODY GOES OUT THERE WITH A SLEDGEHAMMER AND STARTS WHACKING AT IT, I MEAN, IT'S ALWAYS GONNA FUNCTION LIKE THAT.
SO IT'S REALLY JUST UPKEEP OF THE VEGETATION.
AND THAT'S EVEN CHANGED OVER TIME BECAUSE BACK IN THE EIGHTIES AND NINETIES, THE BASINS WERE ALL MODE GREEN GRASS, UM, LOW FLOW CONCRETE CHANNELS.
YOU CAN SEE THEM IN THE BASINS WHEN YOU DRIVE DOWN ONE 13 ON BOTH SIDES OF ONE 13.
UM, BETWEEN HERE AND TRAP, THEY'VE GOTTEN AWAY FROM THAT IN THEIR DESIGN BECAUSE THAT SHALLOW WATER WITH THE SHORTCUT GRASS AND THE CONCRETE CHANNEL ALLOWS THE WATER TO SOLAR HEAT.
RIGHT? AND THEY'VE DETERMINED THAT THE WARM WATER ISN'T GOOD FOR COLD WATER FISHERIES.
SO NOW THEY'RE TRANSFERRING INTO, THEY PREFER THE BASINS TO BE MEADOW.
THEY DON'T WANT WOODY VEGETATION.
SO YOU DON'T WANT TREES BECAUSE YOU DON'T WANT DEEP ROOTS GOING THROUGH A BASIN BERM, WHICH WILL LET THE WATER TRICKLE THROUGH AND, AND BREAK THE BERM DOWN.
BUT THEY DO WANT, UM, THEY CALL THEM BRUSHES AND FORBES, IT'S LIKE YOUR BLACK-EYED SUSANS, YOU'RE HAVE A DEEPER ROOT SYSTEM THAN JUST YOUR LAWN, UM, THAT LETS NUTRIENTS GO INTO THE GROUND.
SO IT'S FILTERING OUT SOME OF THE BAD STUFF TOO.
UM, BUT NOW, AND THAT PROVIDES YOUR, UM, THERMAL CONTROL BECAUSE NOW YOU HAVE LONG FLOWERS SHADING THE WATER, IT'S NOT HEATING UP AS MUCH.
SO IT'S INTERESTING HOW THEY JUST EVOLVE OVER TIME AND WHAT THE ENVIRONMENTALISTS DETERMINE IS THE NEXT BEST THING.
SO PART OF THE MS FOUR PROGRAM IS MONITORING ALL OF THE OUTFALLS.
UM, THERE ARE INSPECTIONS DONE.
SO WE DO AN ANNUAL MS FOUR REPORT.
THIS IS THE ANNUAL MS FOUR REPORT.
MUCH TOO MUCH INFORMATION TO TOUCH ON TONIGHT, BUT, UM, THERE ARE REQUIREMENTS FOR THE MS FOUR PROGRAM BECAUSE YOUR MUNICIPALITY OWNS YOUR STORM SEWER SYSTEMS AND, UM, THEY'RE YOUR RESPONSIBILITY.
THERE ARE SIX REQUIREMENTS AND WE'VE PUT IN WHAT THE REQUIREMENTS ARE AND THEN HOW UPPER PROVIDENCE TOWNSHIP IS SATISFYING THOSE REQUIREMENTS.
UM, SO I'M NOT GONNA READ THEM UNLESS SOMEBODY HAS A QUESTION SPECIFICALLY FOR THEM.
THE ONE OTHER THING I WANNA TOUCH ON, UM, BECAUSE IT'S COME TO THE FOREFRONT WITH THE, UM, 3 57 GREENWOOD AVE DEVELOPMENT THAT WB IS STARTING, THEY AGREED TO DO STREAM BANK RESTORATION.
SO IN THE TOWNSHIP, AND YOU CAN SEE ON THE PLAN THAT JEFF HAS ON THE SCREEN, YOU ALSO HAVE A SMALLER ONE IN YOUR PACKET.
THERE ARE THREE WATERSHEDS THAT ARE CALLED OUT SCHOOLHOUSE RUN, DONNYBROOK AND DOE RUN.
THOSE ARE THE THREE WATERSHEDS IN YOUR TOWNSHIP THAT ARE CLASSIFIED AS IMPAIRED STREAMS. UM, IT'S SILTATION, SO IT'S, IT'S RUNOFF JUST, UM, SILT FLOATING IN THE WATER, CLOGGING UP THE ENVIRONMENT FOR LITTLE MICROBES AND FISH AND SUCH.
UM, BUT THEY'VE DETERMINED THAT THEY ARE IMPAIRED STREAMS. SO NOW YOU HAVE TO HAVE A POLLUTION REDUCTION PLAN.
AND, UM, 3 57 GREENWOOD AVE IS DOING THE STREAM BANK RESTORATION OVER THERE.
IT'S A LITTLE BIT IN EXCESS OF 500 FEET, 532 SIDES OF THE CREEK THAT'S OUT THERE.
AND THERE'S CALCULATIONS THAT YOU DO TO DETERMINE HOW MUCH POLLUTION REDUCTION CREDIT YOU GET FOR THAT.
UM, THAT IS A FIVE YEAR CYCLE THAT D E P HAS, YOU ANALYZE THAT STREAM.
BANK RESTORATION IS HANDLING THIS FIVE YEAR CYCLE, WHICH ENDS, UM, OCTOBER 31ST, 2025.
SO WE JUST HAVE TO MONITOR THE WB CONSTRUCTION OUT THERE AND MAKE SURE THAT THE STREAM BANK RESTORATION IS PHASED IN SO THAT IT IS COMPLETE BY OCTOBER, 2025,
[00:25:02]
WHICH SHOULDN'T BE AN ISSUE.LIKE I SAID, THEY'VE STARTED CONSTRUCTION OUT THERE NOW.
SO WHO PICKS UP THE TAB ON THAT? IS THAT DEVELOPER OR IS THAT TOWNSHIP? SO IN THAT CASE, IT IS A SHARED COST.
UM, THEY HAD SOME, UM, STORM WATER ISSUES.
THERE'S SOME WETLANDS THROUGH THEIR PROPERTY AND, UM, UM, BUFFER AREA THAT THEY HAD.
SO THEY ACTUALLY HAVE, UM, A WAIVER, I THINK INSTEAD OF DOING THEIR STORMWATER DESIGN FROM THE 50 YEAR POST FLOW, REDUCING IT DOWN TO THE TWO YEAR, I THINK THEY TOOK IT DOWN TO THE 10 YEAR.
SO THEY'RE STILL PROVIDING A SIGNIFICANT REDUCTION, BUT AS A RESULT OF THAT, THE TRADE OFF WAS THEY WERE GOING TO CONTRIBUTE TO THE STREAM BANK RESTORATION AS WELL.
SO IT'S SHARED, IT'S SHARED OUT OF THEIR FEES.
YEAH, SO THERE'S AN INVENTORY, THERE'S OUTFALL NUMBERS.
I DIDN'T PUT THOSE ON THIS MAP.
IT'S, IT'S DIFFICULT TO SEE ALREADY, BUT YOU CAN SEE HOW MANY, UM, BASINS THERE ARE IN THE TOWNSHIP.
AND LIKE I SAID, THEY'RE ALL DESIGNED FOR PEAK FLOW.
UM, PER THE TOWNSHIP ORDINANCE.
AGAIN, IT'S EVOLVED OVER TIME.
WE NOW ANALYZE NOT ONLY THE PEAK FLOW, SO THAT WOULD BE LIKE THE SLUG OF WATER THAT COMES DOWN THE RIVER, RIGHT? THAT'S THE PEAK DETENTION BASINS ARE DESIGNED TO HOLD THAT BACK SO THAT INSTEAD OF A PEAK FLOW THAT MIGHT LAST FOR FIVE MINUTES, WE'RE REDUCING THE PEAK.
BUT TO GET ALL THE WATER OUT, IT EXTENDS THE AMOUNT OF TIME THAT THAT WATER RUNS OFF.
SO THE PEAK FLOW IS REALLY WHAT GIVES YOU YOUR VELOCITY FORCES AND WHAT CAN, YOU KNOW, REALLY ERODE YOUR STREAM BANKS.
SO BY REDUCING THE PEAK, YOU'VE ALREADY DONE GOOD JOB.
BUT D E P HAS CHANGED AGAIN OVER TIME THAT WE NOW ALSO ANALYZE VOLUME CONTROL.
SO WHEREAS YOU LOWER THE PEAK AND YOU EXTEND IT OVER TIME, THEY DON'T WANT IT TO EXTEND OVER TIME INDEFINITELY BECAUSE THEY DON'T WANT THAT WATER GOING THROUGH FOR THE NEXT THREE DAYS, RIGHT? SO THAT'S WHERE THEY WANT YOU TO REDUCE YOUR VOLUME AS WELL.
SO THE OLDER BASINS ARE NOT GONNA HAVE ANY INFILTRATION CAPACITY IN THEM.
THAT'S SOMETHING THAT'S NEWER TOO.
IN THE PAST 20 YEARS OR SO, AS INFILTRATION TESTING, YOU FIND OUT HOW GOOD YOUR SOILS ARE, HOW MUCH YOU CAN INFILTRATE INTO THE GROUNDWATER SYSTEM, UM, TO HELP CONTROL YOUR STORM WATER.
SO YOU'RE STILL FOLLOWING YOUR TOWN SUBORDINATES WITH YOUR 50 TO TWO, BUT OVER TIME YOU'VE ADDED A VOLUME REQUIREMENT AS WELL.
AND THAT REALLY FALLS IN THE, UM, M P D SS PERMITTING PROCESS.
SO THE CONSERVATION DISTRICT IS ALL ANALYZING THOSE NUMBERS AS WELL.
DO WE HAVE ANY QUICK RELEASE AREAS IN OUR TOWNSHIP? YOU DO NOT.
YOU ARE NOT PART, UM, THOSE TYPICALLY COME IN WITH AN ACT 1 67 PLAN.
THERE WAS A WOMAN HERE ABOUT A YEAR AGO WHO SAID SHE WAS TRAVELING TO ALL OF THE, UM, WATERSHED CONTRIBUTORS TO THE SKU AND TO PERMA CREEK THAT COME THIS WAY.
AND, UM, THE SUPERVISORS AGREED TO SIGN ON TO A LETTER SAYING, YEP, WE WOULD BE INTERESTED IF SOMEBODY STARTS IN ACT FIVE, OR I'M SORRY, ACT 1 3 1 67 PLAN SO MANY NUMBERS TONIGHT.
UM, THEY'RE BIGGER OVER IN BUCKS COUNTY.
I'M NOT SURE WHY THAT IS, BUT THAT CASE, UM, THIS ISN'T TRUE, BUT LET'S CALL THE TOWNSHIP MAP ONE WATERSHED.
ALL RIGHT? THERE'S NO WATER THAT COMES INTO YOU AND ALL OF YOUR WATER GOES TO ONE PLACE.
SO IF THAT'S THE CASE, THEN WHAT YOU REALLY WANNA DO IS INSTEAD OF HAVING THE PEOPLE AT THE BOTTOM HAVING DETENTION BASINS THAT HOLD BACK THE WATER, YOU WANT THOSE TO GET OUT.
THE FASTER THEY GET OUT IS BECAUSE THEN THEY WON'T CONTRIBUTE TO THE PEAK FLOW.
UM, THAT HAPPENS LATER WHEN ALL OF THIS EVENTUALLY TRICKLES DOWN TO THE BOTTOM.
YOU GUYS DON'T HAVE, UM, YOU, YOU ARE NOT PART OF AN ACT 1 67, NOR DO YOU HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO BE ONE.
IT'S NOT LIKE YOU'VE CHOSEN TO NOT BE IN ONE THAT EXISTS.
THERE IS NOT ONE IN HERE, UM, THAT WOULD COVER YOUR WATERSHEDS AND NO, YOU DON'T HAVE ANY QUICK RELEASE AREAS.
OKAY, JIM, WHY DON'T YOU EXPLAIN, UM, WHAT THE TOWNSHIP'S DOING IN TERMS OF LOOKING AT THE BASINS.
WE TALKED ABOUT A LITTLE BIT ON MONDAY NIGHT AT THE SUPERVISORS MEETING, BUT YEP.
SO YOU CAN SEE ALL OF THE LITTLE BLUE CIRCLES THAT ARE ON THERE.
AND WE'RE STARTING AT THE SOUTH END OF THE TOWNSHIP BECAUSE THOSE ARE SOME OF THE OLDEST BASINS IN THE TOWNSHIP.
UM, TOM BROAD BELT DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC WORKS HAS GIVEN US ABOUT 25 BASINS.
UM, OVER TIME WE'RE GONNA INFILL, WE'RE GOING GO OUT, OUT THERE AND INSPECT.
WE'RE PULLING THE INITIAL, UM, LAND DEVELOPMENT PLANS THAT WERE APPROVED AND COMPARE TAKING THOSE OUT WITH US, COMPARING THEM TO THE CONDITION OF THE BASINS THAT ARE OUT THERE.
NOW, IF WE SEE ANYTHING, UM, DRASTIC THAT NEEDS TO BE DONE.
SO IN OTHER WORDS, SOMEBODY TOOK A SLEDGEHAMMER TO THEIR OUTLET STRUCTURE, UM,
[00:30:01]
WE WILL CREATE A LIST OF ALL OF THE REPAIRS THAT NEED TO BE DONE.UM, WE'LL COME UP WITH A PRELIMINARY COST TESTIMATE OF WHAT THAT WOULD COST TO DO, AND THEN IT'S ON THE OWNER OF THE BASIN, UM, TO DO THOSE REPAIRS.
NOW THE BASINS AT THE BOTTOM OF THE TOWNSHIP, LIKE I SAID, THEY'RE FROM OLDER DEVELOPMENTS.
A LOT OF THOSE ARE ON PRIVATE PROPERTIES THAT DO NOT HAVE HOMEOWNERS ASSOCIATIONS.
SO THOSE PEOPLE FELT LUCKY BECAUSE THEY GOT THE BIGGEST LOT IN THE DEVELOPMENT.
THEY WERE TOLD AT THE TIME OF PURCHASE THAT THEY HAD A STORM OUR MANAGEMENT BASE IN THAT THEY WERE SUPPOSED TO MAINTAIN.
UM, OVER TIME THEY MAY OR MAY NOT HAVE.
I CAN SAY WE LOOKED AT ONE ON SCARLET LANE.
SCARLET OAK, I THINK SCARLET OAK.
UM, THE BASIN WAS IN GREAT SHAPE.
THERE WAS ONE, I'M GONNA CALL IT A WOODY TREE.
IT'S KIND OF LIKE A TWIGS TREE, YOU KNOW, I DON'T THINK 50 YEAR OLD MAPLE OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT.
UM, IT WAS GROWING NEAR THE OUTLET STRUCTURE, UM, KIND OF CLOSE TO THE BERM, BUT ALL IN ALL, UM, IT HAD SOME BRUSH UNDERGROWTH, BUT THAT'S, WHEREAS THE BASIN WAS PROBABLY INTENDED TO BE A MANICURED LAWN 50 YEARS AGO.
IT IS TRANSPIRED INTO WHAT D EEP ACTUALLY PREFERS TO SEE NOW.
NOBODY HAD MOWED IT FOR QUITE A WHILE, BUT YOU DIDN'T HAVE ACORN SPROUTING INTO BIG OAK TREES.
IT WAS REALLY IN REALLY GOOD CONDITION CONSIDERING HOW OLD IT WAS.
UM, AND WE'LL DO THAT, WE'LL DO THAT OVER TIME.
AND LIKE I SAID, I THINK TOM GAVE US ABOUT 2025, UM, TO LOOK AT IN THE FIRST BATCH AND SEE WHERE WE ARE, BUT WE WERE PLEASANTLY SURPRISED, UM, IN LOOKING AT THAT ONE.
ANYTHING ELSE YOU WANT ME TO TOUCH ON JEFF SPECIFICALLY? NO, NOT THAT I CAN THINK OF.
I JUST THOUGHT SINCE WE TALKED ABOUT THAT A LITTLE BIT ON MONDAY YEAH.
NIGHT OF THE PROCESS THAT IT WAS YEAH.
WHAT DID THEY TALK ABOUT? WHAT, WHAT WAS, WHAT WAS THE POINT AT THE TOP? IT WAS, IT WAS PART OF BUDGETING DISCUSSIONS.
THERE WAS A LINE ITEM IN MR. PEARSON WHEN WE GOT TO THE STORMWATER SECTION.
MR. PEARSON WANTED TO PUT MONEY IN TO THE BUDGET FOR, TO HAVE INSPECTIONS DONE OF THE BASINS.
AND WE INFORMED HIM THAT WE WERE ALREADY DOING THAT.
SO IT WAS IN PROCESS THAT WAS THAT.
I'M SORRY, IS THAT AT THE PARTICULAR BUDGET? IT'S JUST PART OF THE GENERAL BUDGET THAT WE HAVE FROM MY DEPARTMENT FOR THE ENGINEERING.
I THINK, I'M ASSUMING THAT'S WHERE IT COMES OUT OF.
I DON'T GET INVOLVED IN BUDGET DETAILS TOO MUCH, SO I DON'T DUNNO IF I MAKE A JOB NUMBER OR I KNOW YOU NOT, YOU JUST SEND US A BILL.
I'M NOT SURE
AND, AND AS WE'VE TALKED ABOUT AT THE E A C, THERE'S A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF EDUCATION THAT'S GOING TO HAVE TO GO TO HOMEOWNERS AND TO, TO HOAS THAT IF, IF SOME OF THESE BASINS ARE IN BAD SHAPE, WE NEED TO HELP EDUCATE THEM, NOT JUST GO OUT THERE AND FIX IT AND FIND 'EM.
YOU KNOW, THAT THAT'S NOT OUR INTENT HERE.
NOT TO JUST GO OUT AND FIX SOME SOMETHING ON SOMEONE'S PROPERTY AND THEN WEAN THEIR PROPERTY.
WHICH WOULD BE THE PROCESS IF WE, IF A BASIN IS FAILING AND WE NOTIFY THE HOMEOWNER, NOTIFY THE, THE OWNER OF THAT BASIN, WHETHER IT BE AN H O A OR A PRIVATE HOMEOWNER, THAT THEY NEED TO FIX IT AND THEY DON'T FIX IT.
AND WE, AND THE TOWNSHIP DECIDES IT'S TIME FOR US TO GO FIX IT.
WE FIX IT AND THEN WE LIEN THE PROPERTY FOR THE COST OF THAT REPAIR.
BUT THAT'S THE, THAT'S THE, THAT'S THE ULTIMATE, YEAH.
THAT'S THE WORST CASE SCENARIO.
I CAN'T THINK, I CAN'T THINK THAT WE'VE ACTUALLY EVER DONE THAT.
WE ALL KNOW THE PROCEDURE, BUT YEAH.
ANY OTHER QUESTIONS ON THE MS FOUR? I'D BE INTERESTED AT THESE 25 THAT YOU'RE GOING TO, THAT COMP GAVE YOU MM-HMM.
UM, AND IN EITHER THIS GROUP OR E A C, WHATEVER, I'D BE INTERESTED KNOWING OF THOSE 25, IF THERE'S ANY THAT DO FAIL, WOULD YOU IDENTIFY THEM TO US? SURE.
SO IF YOU GO OUT AND ONE OF THESE BLUE DOTS AND YOU SAY, BOY, THAT'S IN BAD SHAPE FOR WHATEVER REASON, I DON'T KNOW.
LIKE YOU SAY SOMEBODY TOOK A SLEDGEHAMMER, SOMEBODY PUT A TENNIS COURT OVER IT, UH, YOU KNOW, WHATEVER.
I WOULD JUST BE INTERESTED IN ALL OF THE SEE, SO I COULD SEE THAT I'M GONNA BE FAIRLY CONFIDENT NOBODY'S PUT A TENNIS COURT OVER IT, ONLY BECAUSE WE ARE TRACKING THESE ON THE MS FOUR PROGRAM AND THEY'RE IN THE GI I S SYSTEM.
WELL, YOU PUT, YOU PUT, YOU PAINTED BLUE SO YOU COULD PAINT IT BLUE.
SO THAT'S WHERE IT LOOK BLUE, RIGHT? OH, THERE'S WATER IN THAT ONE.
I HAVE SEEN SOME IN NEW JERSEY
[00:35:01]
WHERE THEY DID PUT TENNIS COURTS IN THE BOTTOM.REALLY? I GUESS AS LONG AS IT'S IN SEE THAT I'M VERY INSIGHTFUL.
HOPEFULLY YOU CAN COME BACK AND SAY, HEY, THEY'RE ALL LIKE THAT ONE ON, WHAT IS IT? IT IS SCARLET IS SCAR, SCARLET OAK DRIVE OVER HERE IN THE TOWNSHIP.
IT'S, I KNOW IT'S HARD TO SEE THE CURSOR, BUT IT IS, IT'S OVER HERE ON THE WESTERN SIDE.
THAT ONE THERE, RIGHT? I DON'T KNOW IF THAT'S THE ONE YOU LOOKED AT SPECIFICALLY.
THAT IS, THAT IS THE ONE, YEAH.
I'M INTERESTED KNOWING LIKE IF, IF ANY OF THESE OTHER ONES, YOU'RE GONNA CHECK WHATEVER TOM G TO LOOK AT, IF ANY OF THEM, I'D LIKE TO SEE ONE IN THE FAILED.
WELL, I HOPE YOU DON'T NEED IT.
AND I'D JUST LIKE TO KNOW IF YOU DO.
YEAH, I'D LIKE TO SEE WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE AND, UH, BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, I KNOW THAT I'VE SEEN ONES THAT ARE OVERGROWN AND YOU'RE TELLING ME NOW THAT'S A GOOD THING.
OVERGROWN WITH THE RIGHT RE VEGETATION YEAH, THE BIG WOODY TREES TO BIRDS.
THAT WHAT YOU, THAT MAKES SENSE.
I THOUGHT THAT OUGHT TO BE NICE AND MANICURED, YOU KNOW, CUT GRASS AND MM-HMM.
SO THAT'S, THAT'S SOMETHING I, I WOULD VENTURE A GUESS.
I MEAN, FROM A TRUE FAILURE POINT, YOU WOULD KNOW, I MEAN, IF A BERM WERE TO WASH AWAY, YOU WOULD KNOW.
SOMEBODY WOULD CALL A COMPLAINT, SOMEBODY WOULD TELL YOU, YOU WOULD KNOW.
UM, AS FAR AS, THE ONLY OTHER THING I CAN THINK OF THAT WOULD CONSTITUTE MORE OF A FAILURE IS LET'S SAY YOU HAVE YOUR CONCRETE OUTLET STRUCTURE, AND YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO HAVE THREE ORIFICES IN THE SIDE, BUT THE BOTTOM ONE NEEDS TO BE CHOKED DOWN MORE.
SO THEY'LL PUT WHAT'S CALLED AN ORIFICE PLATE OVER IT, AND THEY'LL JUST THROTTLE IT DOWN FROM A 12 INCH HOLE, YOU KNOW, TO A SIX INCH HOLE.
I WOULD SAY THE MOST QUOTE UNQUOTE FAILURE YOU WOULD HAVE IS THAT EITHER, AND THIS COULD HAPPEN IN H O A TOO, THAT, YOU KNOW, THE LANDSCAPERS OUT THERE FROM THE GRASS, THEY'RE NOT SUPER CAREFUL ALWAYS.
SO THEIR MOWER DECK COULD HIT IT, AND OVER TIME YOU COULD LOSE THAT ORIFICE PLATE.
SO WHAT THAT'S DOING IS THAT'S LETTING OUT MORE WATER THAN WHAT IT SHOULD.
UM, NOW I SAY WHAT IT SHOULD, IT COULD STILL POTENTIALLY BE IN COMPLIANCE OF THE M P D SS PERMIT AND THE STATE REQUIREMENTS BECAUSE THEY ONLY REQUIRE YOU TO MATCH PEAKS.
SO IF YOU HAVE A FARM FIELD THAT'S LETTING OFF 10 CF SS AND THE PRE-DEVELOPMENT CONDITION IN THE 50 YEAR STORM, EVEN IF YOU BUILD IT FULL OF TOWNHOUSES, THE STATE ONLY REQUIRES YOU TO TAKE IT DOWN TO THE SAME 10 CF SS.
YOU GUYS ARE REDUCING IT FROM THE 50 YEAR STORM TO THE TWO.
SO THAT ORIFICE PLATE WAS PUT ON THERE TO TAKE IT ALL THE WAY DOWN TO THAT TWO YEAR STORM.
SO EVEN THOUGH THE ORIFICE PLATE MIGHT HAVE GOTTEN KNOCKED OFF AT SOME POINT, UM, IF IT DOES, THE PROPERTY OWNER IMMEDIATELY DOWNSTREAM, THEY COULD POSSIBLY KNOW RIGHT AWAY.
THEY'RE LIKE, OH, WELL WHEN IT'S RAINING, YOU KNOW, I ONLY USED TO HAVE THIS LITTLE TRICKLE IN MY BACKYARD AND NOW IT'S A TWO FOOT WIDE, YOU KNOW, SWATH OF WATER COMING THROUGH.
BUT THAT'S NOT TO THE POINT OF CAUSING SEVERE PROPERTY DAMAGE BECAUSE YOU STILL HAVE THE OUTFALL PIPE.
NO MATTER HOW MANY HOLES ARE IN THE SIDE OF THAT ORIFICE, IT ALL GOES INTO THE INLET BOX THAT GOES OUT THROUGH ONE PIPE.
SO THERE'S, I'M GONNA CALL IT BELT AND SUSPENDERS.
OBVIOUSLY IT'S NOT IDEAL BECAUSE THE OUTFALL PIPE IS BIGGER.
UM, IT'S BEEN DESIGNED FOR THE MOST HIGH A HUNDRED YEAR STORM THAT WOULD ALLOW WATER TO COME INTO THE TOP OF THE INLET BOX.
UM, BUT IT'S US ALSO NOT LETTING THE HUNDRED YEAR STORM OUT RIGHT AWAY, EVEN IF YOU WERE TO LOSE THAT OUTLET, UM, ORIFICE PLATE.
SO I WOULD EXPECT POSSIBLY IN ONE OF THESE, UM, INSPECTIONS ALONG THE WAY, WE COULD FIND A MISSING ORIFICE PLATE.
UM, THE ONLY OTHER SEVERE WOULD BE, LIKE I SAID, IF SOMEBODY TOOK A SLEDGEHAMMER TO IT BECAUSE NOT HAPPENING.
WELL, AGAIN, I HOPE YOU FIND 'EM ALL, LIKE YOU SAID ON ONE OF SCARLET ROAD THERE, BUT I I IF YOU DO, I'D BE INTERESTED KNOWING.
HE WANTS TO COME, HE WANTS TO COME SEE IT.
YOU'RE NOT INTERESTED,
THAT'S ALL I HAVE FOR YOU THEN.
I DON'T THINK YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE BASINS IN YOUR TOWNSHIP THAT ARE THAT OLD.
YOU'VE HAD A MUNICIPAL ORDINANCE FOR A WHILE.
SO I MEAN, I REMEMBER WHEN I WAS RIGHT OUT OF COLLEGE IN
[00:40:01]
THE LATE NINETIES WHEN I CAME INTO THIS TOWNSHIP TO DO DEVELOPMENT.SO I WAS SITTING ON THE BACK SIDE OF THE TABLE.
YOU STILL HAD THE 50 YEAR POST TO THE G THREE.
I MEAN, BUT YOU DIDN'T IN THE SEVENTIES.
YOU WOULD NOT HAVE IN THE SEVENTIES.
SO WHAT, THERE'S NOTHING FOR THOSE DEVELOPMENTS TO DO.
THAT'S A LOADED QUESTION, BY THE WAY.
I WOULD SAY THAT MOST OF OUR DEVELOPMENTS THAT ARE FREE 1990 WEREN'T FULL SUBDIVISIONS.
I MEAN, YOU GOT REBO IN THAT AREA THAT, THAT OUR STORMWATER IS, IT DUMPED DOWN THE MINGLE.
WE ACTUALLY DID MANAGE THE STORMWATER.
IT'S JUST NOT IN TODAY'S STANDARD WITH DETENTION BASES, BUT IT WAS MANAGED EVERY SINGLE NO.
AND WHEN WE GO, WHEN WE GO DO THE BASE INVENTORY AND WE LOOK AT THESE, THAT'S WHERE WE'RE PULLING THE OLD LAND DEVELOPMENT PLANS.
SO WE'RE NOT DOING RECALCULATIONS ON THE COMPUTER AND COMPARING IT TO THE CURRENT ORDINANCE.
WE ARE LOOKING AT THE APPROVED LAND DEVELOPMENT PLAN OR THE AS-BUILT, HOW IT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE CONSTRUCTED, AND THAT IS WHAT WE WERE COMPARING THE EXISTING CONDITIONS TO.
WHICH ONE DO YOU LIKE TO START WITH, ANTHONY? UH, YOU CAN KEEP THE FUNCTIONAL CLASSIFICATION.
SO LIKE I MENTIONED, UH, SO IT'S A BIG, BIG PACKET.
I DON'T INTEND TO GO OVER EVERY PAGE IN A LOT OF DETAIL.
I PUT EVERYONE TO SLEEP VERY QUICKLY.
AND NICOLE, THANK YOU FOR THAT
UM, BUT I JUST WANTED TO KIND OF GO OVER.
SO, SO JEFF HAS THE FUNCTIONAL CLASSIFICATION MAP ON, WHICH I'LL EXPLAIN OVER IN A MINUTE.
BUT THE FIRST THING THAT I HAD ON TOP OF EVERYONE'S PACKET WAS OUR, ESSENTIALLY WHAT WE WERE TASKED WITH WAS MUCH LIKE JEN GOING THROUGH THE COMP PLAN AND, YOU KNOW, HIGHLIGHTING OBVIOUSLY THE TRA TRANSPORTATION TRAFFIC ELEMENTS.
SO THAT, THAT WAS OUR MAIN FOCUS.
SO ESSENTIALLY THAT'S SPREAD OUT IN THE 2010 COMP PLAN INTO TWO DIFFERENT SECTIONS.
SO IN THE TOP OF YOUR PACKET, THAT'S WHERE YOU SEE THAT REVIEW OF 2010, UM, UPPER PROVIDENCE, UH, TOWNSHIP COMP PLAN, TRANSPORTATION ELEMENT.
SO THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT THAT SEVEN PAGE DOCUMENT IS.
IT'S BASICALLY JUST A SUMMARY OF US GOING THROUGH THE RELEVANT SECTIONS OF THE COMP PLAN RELATED TO TRANSPORTATION TRAFFIC ELEMENTS.
UM, KIND OF SUMMARIZING WHAT'S IN THERE TODAY IN THE 2010 COMP PLAN.
AND AS YOU'LL SEE IT KIND OF AT THE BOTTOM OF MOST OF THOSE SECTIONS, YOU'LL SEE NOTES, MCMAHON NOTES.
THAT'S ESSENTIALLY US KIND OF, THAT'S, THAT'S THE SUMMARY THAT WE KIND OF LAY OUT AS, AS WE WENT THROUGH AND, AND KIND OF IDENTIFIED THOSE SECTIONS, READ THROUGH THOSE AND, UH, YOU KNOW, KIND OF TOOK A SNAPSHOT INTO WHAT'S BEEN GOING.
OBVIOUSLY 2010 TO 20 THREES, UH, PRETTY BIG GAP, I GUESS, AND CHANGE.
UM, THINK GENERALLY WE, COMP PLANS ARE UPDATED MAYBE EVERY 10 YEARS OR SO, SOMEWHERE AROUND THAT.
UM, BUT YOU'RE, YOU'RE ABOUT THAT TIME.
SO THIS IS A GOOD TIME OF DISCUSSION, I GUESS, THAT WE'RE HAVING.
SO, YOU KNOW, IN THOSE 13 YEARS SINCE THE LAST CHANGE, AND AS YOU CAN IMAGINE, OBVIOUSLY BEFORE IT GETS ADOPTED IN 2010, IS A LOT THAT'S GOING ON BEFORE THEN.
SO THERE'S BEEN A LOT OF, UH, YOU KNOW, REGIONAL PLANS AND, AND DOCUMENTATION THAT'S BEEN OUT THERE FROM MONTGOMERY COUNTY, WHITE BONKO WALK, MONKO, AND THERE'S BEEN A LOT OF FOCUS SINCE 2010.
AND PEDESTRIAN, NOT JUST TRAFFIC, I MEAN, THAT'S, THAT'S BEEN ONGOING.
THAT HASN'T CHANGED, LIKE CAR TRAFFIC.
UM, BUT ONE OF THE BIG FOCUSES OVER THE LAST FEW YEARS, SINCE 2010, AND ESPECIALLY SINCE 2020, UM, HAS BEEN A FOCUS ON PEDESTRIANS MULTIMODAL.
UM, AND THE TOWNSHIP HAS DONE A LOT OF WORK IN THAT ARENA OVER THE LAST FEW YEARS, PASSING YOUR ACTIVE, UH, TRANSPORTATION PLAN, UH, COMPLETE STREETS POLICY, UM, AND, AND BASICALLY TRYING TO, YOU KNOW, COLLABORATE WITH OUR PARKS DEPARTMENT, JEFF AND JEN, KIND OF WORKING WITH TOWNSHIP STAFF AND EVERYONE TO KIND OF GET THOSE ELEMENTS KIND OF IMPLEMENTED.
SO, SO GENERALLY IN THAT SEVEN PAGE DOCUMENT, YOU KNOW, THE, THE, THERE'S, WHAT YOU SEE ON THAT FRONT PAGE IS BASICALLY OUR, THERE'S TWO SECTIONS IN THE COMP PLAN THAT ARE BROKEN DOWN INTO TRANSPORTATION TRAFFIC.
UM, PAGES 15 TO 17 OF THE 2010 COMP PLAN, CIRCULATIONS, UH, TYPE OF GOAL FIVE.
SO YEAH, THAT'S JUST BASICALLY A, A TWO PAGE SUMMARY OF GOALS THAT WERE OUTLINED AT THAT TIME, UH, FOR THE TOWNSHIP IN TERMS OF CIRCULATION, UM, UH, YOU KNOW, REDUCING NON-RESIDENTIAL TRAFFIC, YOU KNOW, VERY GENERIC GOALS.
UM, SO NOTHING REALLY WRONG WITH WHAT'S THERE.
UM, OUR THOUGHT WAS MAYBE, YOU KNOW, IF THEY COULD BE, YOU COULD TAKE A LOOK AT 'EM, UPDATE 'EM SPECIFICALLY TO ADD GOALS RELATING TO BIKE, UH, PEDESTRIAN MULTIMODAL TYPE ELEMENTS, WHICH WERE NOT REALLY IDENTIFIED.
UM, AND THAT'S CIRCULATION ELEMENT.
SO THAT, THAT WAS, UH, SOMETHING THAT STOOD OUT TO US, A THOUGHT OF OURS, UM, YOU KNOW, FOR POTENTIAL CHANGE IN THAT CIRCULATION GOAL FIVE SECTION OF THE COMP PLAN.
[00:45:01]
TO, TO ROLL THROUGH, UH, AND GOT TO, TO REALLY THE HEART OF THE TRANSPORTATION ELEMENTS, WHICH WAS IN THE, UH, SECTION IN THE 2010 COMP PLAN, TITLE PLAN FOR THE MOVEMENT OF PEOPLE AND GOODS, THAT'S REALLY LIKE THE HEART, I THINK, OF THE, OF THE TRANSPORTATION TRAFFIC SECTION OF THE COMP PLAN.UM, SO, YOU KNOW, STARTING ON THAT PAGE, ONE OF THAT REVIEW, UH, OUTLINE THAT I HAVE, YOU KNOW, KIND OF JUST GOES THROUGH, WE DO A BREAKDOWN OF HOW THAT'S IDENTIFIED.
SOME OF THE, UM, YOU KNOW, TRANSPORTATION SETTINGS, VERY BASIC STUFF.
UM, YOU KNOW, THE, THE COMP PLAN IDENTIFIES DIFFERENT INVENTORY ELEMENTS, TRAFFIC VOLUMES, SIDEWALKS, TRAILS, UM, ROADWAY CLASSIFICATION SIGNALS, UH, THAT ARE AVAILABLE OR ARE CURRENTLY, UH, IN AT THE TOWNSHIP VOLUMES FOR THE VARIOUS, UH, TOWNSHIP ROADWAYS.
UM, SO ALL, ALL OF THE KEY ELEMENTS ARE KIND OF IN THERE.
UM, SOME OF OUR THOUGHTS OR, UH, SUGGESTIONS MAYBE FOR UPDATES WOULD BE, UM, IT'S NOT REALLY, SO IN THAT SECTION, THE PLAN FOR THE MOVEMENT OF PEOPLE AND GOODS, IT KIND OF ROLLS IN PARAGRAPHS, BUT IT DOESN'T REALLY, UH, SEPARATE OUT THE VARIOUS ELEMENTS IN A LOT OF DETAIL.
SO IT KIND OF RUNS THROUGH DIFFERENT THINGS, JUST ONE PARAGRAPH INTO ANOTHER.
SO REALLY WHAT STOOD OUT TO US TO JUST CLEANING THAT UP AND JUST KIND OF GIVING HEADINGS FOR ALL OF THE VARIOUS, UH, SECTIONS ON ROAD BIKING, BRIDGES RAIL, FUNCTIONAL CLASSIFICATION, ET CETERA.
SO JUST BASICALLY, YOU KNOW, SUMMARIZING IT AND MAKING IT A LITTLE BIT CLEARER, UM, TO KIND OF LET THE READER KNOW AND EVERYONE KNOW WHAT, WHAT THOSE SECTIONS ARE RELATED TO.
UM, STARTING AT THE BOTTOM OF PAGE ONE AND ROLLING INTO PAGE TWO, WE POINT OUT A LOT OF THE MAPS THAT WERE USED IN THE TRANSPORTATION ELEMENTS.
SO FOR EXAMPLE, THE BOTTOM OF PAGE ONE WE CALL OUT, UM, THAT'S THE FUNCTIONAL CLASSIFICATION MAP THAT I WANT TO TOUCH UPON.
SO THE FUNCTIONAL CLASSIFICATION BASICALLY, YOU KNOW, LOOKS AT ALL THE, THE ROADWAYS IN UPPER PROVIDENCE TOWNSHIP AND TOWNSHIP ROADS AND ALSO, UM, AND NOT, UH, ON ROADS, STATE ROADS, AND CURRENTLY CLASSIFIES 'EM INTO THREE CATEGORIES, OUR MATERIAL COLLECTOR AND FEEDER.
UM, WHAT'S THE FIRST ONE? ARTERIAL, ARTERIAL ROADWAY.
SO THAT'S KIND OF LIKE THE HIERARCHY OF YOUR ROADWAY SYSTEM.
SO ARTERIALS ARE LIKE YOUR BIG MAJOR ROADWAYS, YOUR NUMBERED ROUTES, YOUR, UM, YOU KNOW, YOUR ONE THIRTEENS 29, UM, YOU KNOW, THOSE, THOSE ROADS WHICH CARRY SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT OF TRUCK TRAFFIC, TRAFFIC, JUST GENERAL TRAFFIC, UM, OR MAJOR CORRIDOR'S, NETWORKS THAT CONNECT NOT ONLY ROADS WITHIN THE TOWNSHIP, BUT OBVIOUSLY CONTINUE AND CONNECT, UM, YOU KNOW, YOUR, YOUR NEIGHBORING MUNICIPALITIES AND THINGS LIKE THAT.
SO THOSE WOULD BE CATEGORIZED AS LIKE ARTERIAL ROADWAYS.
UM, COLLECTOR ROADWAYS WOULD BE LIKE YOUR NEXT CATEGORY DOWN.
SO THEY'RE NOT AS, UM, CONNECTED OR HIGHLY TRAFFICKED, UM, AS YOUR ARTERIALS, BUT THEY'RE LIKE SECOND, SECOND CATEGORY, YOU KNOW, LIKE, UM, UH, WOULD BE A GOOD EXAMPLE.
A CARL ROAD WOULD BE AN EXAMPLE OF THAT.
UM, YOU KNOW, SO IT'S NOT A STATE ROUTE, NOT A NUMBER ROUTE, BUT CARRIES A LOT OF TRAFFIC.
UM, UH, BLACKROCK ROAD, THAT'S A PENNDOT ROAD, NOT A GOOD EXAMPLE, BUT IT A CATEGORY.
DO A STEP BELOW ARTERIAL BASICALLY, AND THEN YOU ARE MORE RESIDENTIAL, NOT REALLY, UH, YOU KNOW, CARRYING A SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT OF TRUCK TRAFFIC AND, UH, CONNECTED TRAFFIC AND, UM, RAIL TO OR, UM, UH, OTHER TRANSPORTATION TO NEIGHBORING, UM, MISS VALLEYS WOULD BE LIKE YOUR FEEDER.
SO THOSE ARE KIND OF LIKE THE THREE MAJOR CATEGORIES THAT THE ROADS ARE CLASSIFIED UNDER TODAY.
UM, AND JEFF, YOU COULD PULL UP THAT ON THAT.
SO THE, SO WE'RE THE FUNCTIONAL CLASSIFICATIONS, SO THAT WAS KIND OF LIKE ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE, THROUGH COORDINATION WITH JEFF THAT WE KIND OF DID A DEEP DIVE ON.
SO YEAH, IT'S ACCIDENTALLY TWO PAGES, LIKE THERE.
SO THIS, THE FIRST ONE REALLY IS THE, THE MAIN ONE WITH THE YELLOW HIGHLIGHTS.
SO THE, THE, UM, P D F THAT'S ON THE SCREEN IS ATTACHMENT A IN THE.IN THE PACKET THAT I HANDED OUT.
AND THAT'S, SO THIS WOULD BE WHAT WE, WHAT WE'RE CALLING OUR, LIKE SUGGESTED CHANGE OR SUGGESTED MODIFICATION TO WHAT THE FUNCTIONAL CLASSIFICATION MAP THAT'S CURRENTLY, UH, IN THE COMP PLAN, UH, WHAT IT LOOKED LIKE.
SO RIGHT NOW, AS YOU GO FROM LEFT, LEFT TO RIGHT ON THE MAP, UM, THAT'S ON THE SCREEN, YOU KNOW, IT HAS LISTED OBVIOUSLY ALL THE ROADWAY, THE SPECIFIC ROADS THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT AS YOU MOVE TO THE RIGHT.
UM, AND WHERE THE YELLOW HIGHLIGHTS ARE, UM, THAT'S THE, WHAT WE'RE CALLING THE RECOMMENDED, UH, CLASSIFICATIONS,
[00:50:01]
UM, WITH THE YELLOW ITEMS ESSENTIALLY HIGHLIGHTED, UH, CATEGORIES THAT, THAT WE'RE IDENTIFYING A CHANGE TO, UM, TO THE RIGHT OF THAT COLUMN, THAT'S WHAT IS THAT, THAT'S HOW THE ROADS IN THE TOWNSHIP ARE CURRENTLY CLASSIFIED.SO THAT WOULD BE YOUR, YOU KNOW, BASED ON THE 2010, UH, COMP PLAN.
UM, AND THEN TO THE RIGHT OF THAT, UH, YOU HAVE YOUR, HOW PENDOT ESSENTIALLY CLASSIFIES THE ROADWAYS AND THEN TO THE, TO THE VERY RIGHT OF THE PAGE, HOW THE COUNTY CLASSIFIES, UM, THE SAME ROADWAYS.
SO WE WANNA, WE WANTED TO SHOW, UH, A KIND OF A COMPARISON WHAT, WHAT YOU HAVE TODAY, WHAT, HOW PENDO CATEGORIZES SOME OF SOME OF THE ROADWAYS AND HOW THE COUNTY CLASSIFIES 'EM SO THAT YOU CAN KIND OF SEE, UM, AND, AND BASICALLY TRY TO LOOK FOR SOME CONSISTENCY BASICALLY.
SO WE'RE NOT TOO FAR OFF AND, UM, DON'T SEE ANY MAJOR DISCREPANCIES.
SO, UM, GOING BACK TO THAT SECOND COLUMN, THE RECOMMENDED FUNCTIONAL CLASSIFICATION.
UH, SO THOSE WOULD BE WHAT'S HIGHLIGHTED IN YELLOW AS YOU COMPARE THAT TO THE COLUMN TO THE IMMEDIATE RIGHT, YOU WOULD SEE, FOR EXAMPLE, A RIDGE PIKE, WHICH IS THE FIRST YELLOW HIGHLIGHTED, UM, DESIGN, SUGGESTED DESIGNATION CHANGE TO A PRINCIPAL ARTERIAL VERSUS WHAT'S CLASSIFIED AS A COLLECTOR TODAY.
UM, YOU KNOW, IT'S BEEN A SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT OF DEVELOPMENT IN THE TOWNSHIP SINCE 2010, AND AS WE KIND OF TOOK A LOOK AT ALL THE, YOUR TRAFFIC VOLUMES OVER THE YEARS, YOU COULD, YOU COULD START TO SEE STEADY, YOU KNOW, INCREASE IN THOSE NUMBERS, SLIGHT DROP AFTER 2020.
AND COVID SINCE, YOU KNOW, OBVIOUSLY A LOT OF THINGS WERE, WERE SHUT DOWN AND INACTIVE.
AND SINCE THEN, OBVIOUSLY A LOT'S CHANGED IN WORKING FROM HOME AND THAT SORT OF STUFF.
SO YOU SAW, UH, 20, 20 TO 22, YOU SAW A LOT OF DIP IN WHAT WAS CLIMBING PRETTY CONSISTENTLY.
BUT NOW OVER THE LAST YEAR, WE'VE STARTED TO SEE THOSE NUMBERS DIP, STARTING TO NOT NECESSARILY BACK TO WHAT IT WAS PRIOR TO 2020, BUT GETTING, GETTING THERE AGAIN, I'M NOT SURE IF IT'LL EVER GET THERE AGAIN WITH THE WAY THINGS HAVE CHANGED THE LANDSCAPE, BUT, UH, YOU KNOW, WHO KNOWS, WHO KNOWS? BUT SO KIND OF FACTORING, UM, THE FUNCTIONAL CLASSIFICATION IS MADE UP OF A FACTOR OF DIFFERENT THINGS, VERY SUBJECTIVE.
SO IT'S A FUNCTION OF HOW MUCH TRAFFIC IS RUNNING THROUGH THERE, UM, PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION, WHAT IT'S CONNECTED TO AND FROM.
UM, SO A LOT OF THOSE DIFFERENT FACTORS.
SO GOING BACK TO RIDGE RIDGE PIKE CURRENTLY CLASSIFIED AS A COLLECTOR ROAD.
UM, AS YOU CAN SEE, PENNDOT, YOU KNOW, HAS IDENTIFIED THAT AS AN ARTERIAL, AS AS THE COUNTY.
UM, SO, YOU KNOW, OUR THOUGHT IS TO, TO START, WHAT, WHAT'S CONSISTENT IN ALL THE YELLOW HIGHLIGHTS IS THAT KIND OF FOLLOWING THE THEME OF PENNDOT IN, IN THE COUNTY, WHICH IS SOME OF THOSE ROADWAYS, UM, MAY HAVE BEEN IDENTIFIED AS MORE OF A MINOR, LIKE A FEEDER OR COLLECTOR, NOT, NOT A SIGNIFICANT, UH, TRAVELED ROAD.
AND BASED ON WHAT WE'RE SEEING, MAKING SOME SUGGESTIONS TO POSSIBLY, YOU KNOW, CHANGE THE CLASSIFICATION OF THOSE ROADWAYS TO BE, UM, THIS IS, WHY IS THE DIFFERENCES, UH, ANTHONY, IS IT JUST PARAMETERS THAT EATS THE CONNIE VERSUS THE STATE VERSUS THE THIS? WHAT, WHY ARE THEY DIFFERENT AT ALL? YEAH, THERE'S, THERE'S DIFFERENT PARAMETERS.
I, I THINK THAT KIND OF SHOWS THE SUBJECTIVITY, I GUESS BEHIND, BEHIND IT REALLY.
I THINK AT THE ARTERIAL LEVEL, THERE'S MORE CONSISTENCY.
UM, 'CAUSE FROM A, YOU KNOW, AS THE, AS THE, UM, FEDERAL HIGHWAY KIND OF TAKES A LOOK AT THE ENTIRE, UM, THE ENTIRE GLOBE, I GUESS, YOU KNOW, THE, THE ENTIRE, UM, UH, YOU KNOW, STATE, COUNTRY, YOU KNOW, ARTERIAL'S KIND OF A, PRETTY MUCH A SET STANDARD IN TERMS OF CLASSIFICATION, BUT REALLY BELOW THAT THERE'S A LOT OF FLUCTUATION.
AND I THINK IT DEPENDS ON THE LEVEL AT WHICH EVERYONE'S REVIEWING.
SO PENNDOT'S LOOKING, YOU KNOW, SPECIFICALLY LIKE STATE, STATEWIDE AND, AND MORE REGIONAL, THE COUNTIES IS EVEN MORE HONED IN, YOU KNOW, IS SPECIFIC TO THE LIKE UPPER, PROVIDE THE SPECIFIC COUNTY THAT WE'RE IN, WHEREAS PENTHOUSES GOT THE OX, CHESTER, DELAWARE, MONTGOMERY, LIKE THE, THE FIVE AREAS, COUNTIES.
SO IT KIND OF, IT SHOWS YOU HOW THE LEVEL OF WHICH THE DETAIL WHICH THEY'RE, THEY'RE KIND OF GOING INTO.
SO IN OTHER WORDS, WHAT YOU'RE SAYING IS THAT THE TOWNSHIP LOOKS AT A ROAD, WHATEVER IT MAY BE, UH, A BLACKROCK ROAD SEES IT AS AN ARTERIAL, WHERE THE OTHER GUYS MIGHT SEE IT AS THAT THE AMOUNT OF TRAFFIC OR TRIPS ON THAT ROAD MAY NOT MEET THEIR CRITERIA, BE CAUGHT VOLUNTEER.
AND, AND YOU KNOW, THEY, FOR
UM, YOU KNOW, YOU, YOU COULD HAVE, YOU COULD HAVE HAD, UH, SECTIONS OF UNDEVELOPED
[00:55:01]
AREA THAT HAVE SINCE BEEN FULLY DEVELOPED AROUND THE ROAD THAT'S NOW, YOU KNOW, INCREASED THE TRAFFIC AND, YOU KNOW, IT'S, IT'S NOT REALLY A COLLECTOR ANYMORE.YOU KNOW, DESIGN NEED MORE LIKE AN ARTERIAL OR WELL, DOES THAT, DOES, DOES THE, UH, CLASSIFICATION ARTERIAL WHATEVER, DOES THAT HAVE ANY TIE TO THE BUDGET TO REPAIR THAT? WELL, SO IT, SO WHAT IT DOES HAVE A TIE TO IS WHAT'S IN ATTACHMENT B IN THE PACKET.
UM, AND ONE OF, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE WERE FOCUSED ON AND, AND KIND OF LOOKING AT AS WE WERE LOOKING AT DESIGNATIONS, UM, CURRENTLY, UH, AND IT'S ACTUALLY THERE'S SNAPSHOTS OF, SO, UH, ATTACHMENT B IS THE CURRENT TOWNSHIP RIGHT OF WAY MAP, UM, AND SCREENSHOTS OF THAT ARE UNDER, ARE ON THIS GRAPH THAT, THAT JEFF STILL HAS UP ON THE SCREEN.
AND THAT'S BASICALLY, UM, YOUR CLASSIFICATIONS TIED TO THE RIGHT OF WAY, UM, FOR YOUR ROADWAY.
SO, YOU KNOW, AS YOU, AS YOU KNOW, AS WE DEAL WITH LAND DEVELOPMENT APPLICATIONS, YOU KNOW, WE'RE ALWAYS LOOKING AT THE CLASSIFICATION ROAD AND IDENTIFYING WHAT SORT OF ROADWAY IMPROVEMENTS GET DONE AND ALSO WHAT SORT OF RIGHT OF WAY, UM, EITHER NEEDS TO GET DEDICATED TO THE TOWNSHIP, UH, BASED ON THE LEVEL OF IMPROVEMENT THAT NEEDS TO DONE TO COUNTERACT THEIR, UH, TO, YOU KNOW, TO MITIGATE THEIR TRAFFIC IMPACT.
AND ALSO, YOU KNOW, UM, THE, THE RIGHT OF WAY TO, IF THEY'RE NOT GONNA DEDICATE IT TODAY TO KIND OF A, UH, OFFER IT FOR FUTURE DEDICATION, UH, IN THE EVENT THAT, UH, YOU KNOW, DEVELOPMENT OCCURS OR, OR A ROADWAY PROJECT GETS IMPLEMENTED.
SO, UM, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE, THAT, THAT'S KIND OF TIED TO THE CLASSIFICATION THAT WE DESIGNATE AND ULTIMATELY THAT WE DECIDE TO, TO MOVE TO, IS HOW WE CLASSIFY HOW MUCH RIGHT OF WAY WE WANT TO, UH, DEDICATE OR ALLOW ON THAT SPECIFIC ROADWAY.
SO FOR EXAMPLE, UM, GOING FROM A COLLECTOR ROAD, UM, IF YOU LOOK AT THE LEGEND ON THE BOTTOM OF THIS, UH, THE ATTACHMENT A, THE, THE FUNCTIONAL CLASSIFICATION MAP COLLECTOR ROAD, CURRENTLY, UH, THE TOWNSHIP CALLS FOR AN 80 FOOT, UH, ULTIMATE RIGHT OF WAY.
UM, SO 40, 40 FOOT ON EITHER SIDE OF THE CENTER LINE.
SO IF YOU WERE TO CHANGE THE CATEGORY, SAY FROM A COLLECTOR TO AN ARTERIAL, UM, WHICH REQUIRES A HUNDRED FOOT ULTIMATE RIGHT OF WAY, SO THERE'S A 20 FOOT UL, YOU KNOW, CHANGE IN, IN THE AMOUNT OF RIGHT OF WAY THAT YOU WOULD REQUIRE, UM, SAY A DEVELOPMENT TO, UM, SET ASIDE FOR FUTURE POTENTIAL DEVELOPMENT.
UM, WELL, I, I'M STILL NOT SURE I GOT THE ANSWER TO MY QUESTION.
SO I'M LOOKING AT, UM, I'M LOOKING AT, I DUNNO, PICK ONE, UM, MENNONITE ROAD, UH, AT THAT, UH, OLD STATE ROAD.
IT SAYS LOCAL ROAD UNDER PENDO, WE HAVE IT AS A MAJOR COLLECTOR.
UM, SO DOES THAT CLASSIFICATION HAVE SOME SORT OF SIGNIFICANCE TO THE STATE IF THEY WANT TO MAINTAIN THAT ROAD, IF THEY LOOK AT IT AS A LOCAL ROAD.
THEN THEY SAY, YOU KNOW, THAT'S MINOR FOR US TO REPAIR THAT, EVEN THOUGH IT MAY HAVE SOME BAD, WHAT'S, SEE LEWIS ROAD AS AN EXAMPLE.
IF YOU GO UP BACK LEWIS ROAD, IT'S A MESS.
HOW COME THAT'S NOT A PRIORITY FOR THE STATE TO FIX THAT? YOU KNOW WHAT, WHAT, WELL, HOW DO THEY CLASSIFY IT? YEAH.
SO THEY, SO, SO THEY HAVE, UM, THAT'S A WHOLE OTHER LIKE TANK WEB IN TERMS OF HOW THEY RUN
SO THE, UM, YOU KNOW, THAT, THAT'S TIED TO, SO THEY HAVE A, SO WE AT THE COUNTY LEVEL, YOU KNOW, THEY, THEY HAVE THEIR LIKE ROAD PROGRAM, UH, BASICALLY, YOU KNOW, CATEGORIZED PER CA THE COUNTY LEVEL, MONTGOMERY BOX CHESTER.
SO, YOU KNOW, THEY, THEY HAVE A YEARLY, OR I THINK IT'S A 10 YEAR OUTLOOK I GUESS THEY HAVE FOR PAVING, ET CETERA.
SO THEY, THEY HAVE A, A UNIQUE SYSTEM IN HOW THEY MAINTAIN AND GO OUT AND MODIFY, YOU KNOW, SURFACE TREATMENT PROJECTS AND THINGS LIKE THAT FOR THEIR ROADWAYS.
BUT ESSENTIALLY HOW THESE CATEGORIES ALSO IMPACT ROADWAYS, TO YOUR POINT, TOM WOULD BE, UM, YOU KNOW, LOOKING AT WHAT'S, UH, LIKE A COLLECTOR OR FEEDER TYPE CLASSIFICATION WOULD OBVIOUSLY NOT REQUIRE, UH, AS WIDE OF A ROADWAY, FOR EXAMPLE.
SO IN YOUR COLLECTOR FEEDER ROADS, YOU KNOW, BECAUSE OF THEY'RE KIND OF LOWER ON THE HIERARCHY, YOU KNOW, THEY COULD BE 10 FOOT LANES, UM, NO SHOULDERS, 10 FOOT LANES, YOU KNOW, ONE TO TWO FOOT SHOULDERS AND THINGS LIKE THAT.
WHEREAS WHEN YOU START GETTING INTO YOUR, UM, UH, COLLECTOR OR MAJOR COLLECTOR OR ARTERIAL TYPE ROADWAYS, BECAUSE YOU'RE DEALING WITH MORE TRAFFIC IN A D T AND TRUCKS, NOW YOUR MINIMUM ROADWAY WIDTH REQUIREMENTS START TO CHANGE AS YOUR DESIGNATION STARTS TO INCREASE FROM LOCAL FEEDER TO THE HIERARCHY OF ARTERIAL.
SO WHAT THAT WOULD ALSO IMPACT IN ADDITIONAL RIGHT AWAY, MAYBE THAT TO GET BACK TO YOUR POINTS ON WAS, WOULD BE WHAT YOU WOULD RECOMMEND FOR
[01:00:01]
THOSE ROADWAY OR SHOULDER WIDTHS FOR THOSE ROADWAYS TOO.SO IF IT'S CATEGORIZED AS A COLLECTOR AND YOU'RE MOVING INTO AN ARTERIAL, YOU WOULD BE EVALUATE, YOU WOULD BE LOOKING AT THAT HOLISTICALLY AND SAYING, OKAY, WELL 10 FOOT LANES FOR THIS ROAD DOESN'T CUT IT ANYMORE BECAUSE IT'S HIGHER TRUCKS NOW HIGHER VOLUMES.
SO NOW WE'RE GONNA MAKE REC, WE WOULD RECOMMEND THAT, YOU KNOW, THE MINIMUM ROADWAY THAT YOU WOULD PROVIDE WOULD BE 12 FEET, 13 FEET, YOU KNOW, THAT SORT OF THING.
AND THEN, UM, YOU KNOW, THESE RECOMMENDATIONS START SPILLING OVER THEN INTO, WHICH WOULD BE LIKE, KIND OF LIKE THE NEXT PHASE, WHICH WOULD BE LOOKING AT HOW THIS AFFECTS YOUR, YOUR ORDINANCE, YOU KNOW, YOUR, HOW STREETS ARE IDENTIFIED, WHAT SORT OF WIDTHS ARE IDENTIFIED ON YOUR STREET CATEGORIES AND THINGS LIKE THAT.
SO IT IS KIND OF A DOMINO EFFECT.
THIS IS KIND OF LIKE THE HIGHER LEVEL JUST FROM A, IT'S LOOKING AT IT MORE SO FROM LIKE THE HIGHER HIERARCHY OR THE, UM, LIKE A BIRD'S EYE VIEW.
SO BASED ON TRAFFIC, BASED ON, UH, WHAT IT CONNECTS TO BASED ON WHAT'S BEEN HAPPENING IN TERMS OF LAND DEVELOPMENT AND THE SURROUNDING, UM, AREA.
THAT'S KIND OF WHAT THIS FUNCTIONAL CLASSIFICATION LOOKS INTO.
THEN AS YOU START GETTING INTO THE WEEDS, YOU GET INTO MORE OF THOSE OTHER ELEMENTS, TOM, IN TERMS OF, OKAY, NOW THE CLASSIFICATION IS CHANGING.
WHAT DOES THAT MEAN FOR THAT ROAD? AND WHAT DO WE, YOU KNOW, DO WE NEED TO MAKE MODIFICATIONS TO THOSE SORTS OF RECOMMENDATIONS AND LANGUAGE SHOULDERS, ET CETERA.
CAN I ASK A QUESTION MAYBE A DIFFERENT WAY? EXCUSE ME.
LET'S JUST TAKE OLD STATE ROAD AS AN EXAMPLE.
PENDOT SAYS IT'S A LOCAL ROAD.
YOU'D LIKE TO CLASSIFY IT AS A MAJOR COLLECTOR.
HOW DOES THAT INFLUENCE WHAT, WHAT WE CHANGE TO WHAT PENDO CLASSIFIES IT AS? AND DOES THAT MAKE A DIFFERENCE IN THE AMOUNT OF MONEY THEY MAY BE WILLING TO SPEND TO DO ANY KIND OF THING TO THAT ROAD BASED ON WHAT USED TO BE LOCAL IS NOW A MAJOR COLLECTOR? YEAH, SO ONE OF THE, SO IN THAT EXAMPLE, SO A LOT OF WHAT'S IDENTIFIED IN PENNDOT'S CLASSIFICATION AS LOCAL, ESSENTIALLY THAT'S PENNDOT'S TERMINOLOGY FOR DEFERRING THAT TO, SO THEY'RE, THEY'RE BASICALLY SAYING THAT'S A LOCAL TOWNSHIP MUNICIPAL ROADWAY.
SO, SO, SO WHATEVER WE DETERMINE IT TO BE, THEY'LL ACCEPT THAT AS A MAJOR COLLECTOR AND AS FUNDING REQUESTS ARE MADE, THEY'LL SAY, GEE, THAT'S A MAJOR COLLECTOR.
THAT'S SOMETHING WE MAYBE SHOULD CONTRIBUTE MONEY TO.
YEAH, I THINK IT WAS CERTAINLY.
IS THAT, IS THAT, I THINK THAT'S WHERE TODD WAS GOING.
I THINK THAT'S WHAT I'M TRYING TO, TO, YEAH.
I'M TRYING TO DETERMINE IF THESE CLASSIFICATIONS, IF SOMEBODY LOOKS AT THESE, OBVIOUSLY SOMEBODY IN HARRISBURG DOESN'T KNOW, UH, OLD STATE ROADS, RIGHT? THEY LOOK AT THE CLASSIFICATION AND THEY SAY, WELL, WE GOT THAT CLASSIFIED AS A LOCAL ROAD.
SO TO YOUR POINT, WE'RE GOING TO, WE DON'T CARE ABOUT THAT ROAD.
WE'RE BASICALLY IGNORING THAT ROAD.
RIGHT? BUT IN THE TOWNSHIP, IT MIGHT BE AN IMPORTANT COLLECTOR ROUTE OR MAJOR COLLECTOR ROUTE.
SO DOES THAT AFFECT, DOES THAT CHANGE THEIR VIEW OF, BECAUSE WE RECLASSIFY IT AS A TOWNSHIP, DOES THAT CHANGE THEIR CLASSIFICATION? DO YOU MEAN AND THEREFORE AFFECT FUNDING? YEAH, WE WOULD.
SO WHEN THESE CHANGES ARE MADE, THERE'S COORDINATION THAT WOULD BE DONE.
SO WE WOULDN'T SAY WE'RE GONNA CHANGE THIS CLASSIFICATION WITHOUT HAVING COMMUNICATION AND COORDINATION WITH THE DEPARTMENT FIRST.
SO WE WOULD ALERT THEM AND MAKE, SO THEY, IT IS, IT IS COLLABORATIVE IN TERMS OF, WE'VE TAKEN A LOOK AT IT FROM A DRILL DOWN LOCAL LEVEL.
WE'VE IDENTIFIED IT AS A CHANGE IN CATEGORY, OR AT LEAST, YOU KNOW, WHAT PENDO IS NOT REALLY FOCUSING ON.
WE BRING TO THEIR ATTENTION, HEY, PENDO, WE'RE CLASSIFYING THESE ROADWAYS AS SUCH, THERE'S COORDINATION THAT WOULD OCCUR WITH THE DEPARTMENT.
THEY'D SEE WHAT WE'RE RECOMMEND, WHAT WE'RE RECOMMENDING, ALL FOR FEEDBACK.
UM, BECAUSE IT, YOU KNOW, WHEN THEY'RE OR MAY NOT CHANGE CLIFF, IT MAY OR MAY NOT CHANGE, BUT AT LEAST IT GAVE, OFFERS THEM AN OPPORTUNITY TO SEE THAT WE'RE MAKING CHANGES.
BECAUSE WHENEVER YOU'RE MAKING CHANGES TO THE COMP PLAN THAT HAS TO GET VETTED PUBLICLY, YOU HAVE TO GO THROUGH ALL YOUR, YOU KNOW, YOUR, THE SCHOOLS, PEN DOTS, ET CETERA.
SO THEY, THEY WOULD HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO VIEW AND YOU WOULD COORDINATE.
AND THEN WHETHER OR NOT THAT CHANGES THEIR CLASSIFICATION OR ANY FOCUS OR FUND ALLOTMENTS I, THAT I CAN'T ANSWER AND THAT MAY OR MAY NOT CHANGE THEIR OPINION.
UH, I THINK YOU ALSO HAVE TO LOOK AT IT THAT PENDO HAS A LOT OF ROOMS AND A LOT OF ROPE HAS A LOT OF ROAD, AND, AND I DON'T THINK SO.
YEAH, THEY, THEY HAVE A FEW AND I DON'T THINK THAT THEY'RE LOOKING AT THE DRILL DOWN DATA THAT, THAT ANTHONY'S LOOKING AT TO DETERMINE WHAT THESE ROADS SHOULD BE.
THEY MAY SAY IT'S A LOCAL ROAD, BUT I DON'T THINK THEY MEAN A LOCAL ROAD AS WE'VE DEFINED IT, WHICH IS 40 FEET WIDE.
THEY MEAN IT AS IT'S A ROAD MUNICIPALITY THAT WE'RE NOT REALLY GONNA BOTHER WITH RIGHT NOW.
WELL, THAT'S THE POINT I'M SAYING, YOU KNOW, THEY'RE, THEY'RE GONNA, THEY'RE GONNA NOT GIVE YOU ANY FUNDING FOR A ROAD THAT THEY DON'T THINK IS IMPORTANT.
WELL, THEIR FUNDING COMES FROM A, A TRANSPORTATION IMPROVEMENT PROGRAM.
SO THERE'S CERTAIN THINGS ON THE TRANSPORTATION IMPROVEMENT PROGRAM THAT YOU CAN LOOK
[01:05:01]
AT AND SEE WHAT THEY HAVE PLANNED FOR THE NEXT 10, 15, 20 YEARS.I THINK IT IS WHEN IT COMES TO FUNDING FOR REPAVING ROADS, THERE'S A, A LIQUID FUELS FUNDING, THAT FORMULA THAT GOES INTO HOW MUCH MONEY WE GET TO REPAY CERTAIN ROAD, CERTAIN ROADS BASED ON THE DISTANCE OF THE ROADWAYS IN THE TOWNSHIP.
I DON'T THINK IT LOOKS AT WIDTH.
UM, SO THERE'S ALWAYS COORDINATION WHEN IT COMES TO, IF WE WERE TO REDO A ROAD, IF WE WERE TO WIDEN A ROAD, IF I DON'T SEE WHY WE WOULD NEED TO, BUT LET'S SAY WE WERE GONNA WIDEN OLD STATE ROAD TO USE MR. PETER'S LAST EXAMPLE.
WE DECIDED, WELL, WE'RE GOING, IT, IT'S NOW AT 60 FEET.
THERE WOULD HAVE TO BE SOME COORDINATION WITH PENNDOT AND MAYBE THERE'D BE AN OPPORTUNITY TO GET FUNDING FROM THEM.
THEN JUST LIKE WITH ANY OTHER ROAD PROJECT WE DO, IT'S NOT SOMETHING WHERE THEY COME OUT AND THEY ACTIVELY DO SOMETHING TO A ROAD, UNLESS IT'S ON THE TRANSPORTATION IMPROVEMENT PROGRAM.
IF WE DECIDE FROM A LOCAL LEVEL, HERE'S WHAT WE WANT TO DO, THAT'S WHEN WE START TO ASK FOR FUNDING FROM THEM.
AND THERE'S GRANTS AND HE'LL GET INTO GRANTS IN THE, IN THE NEXT SECTION OF WHAT GRANTS ARE OUT THERE FOR CERTAIN ROAD PROJECTS.
I GET, YEAH, YEAH, THAT'S A GOOD SUMMARY I GUESS LIKE KIND OF GLOBALLY, I GUESS HOW, HOW IT WORKS.
YEAH, BECAUSE THEY, THE, UM, YEAH, SO AS WE, SO THAT'S FUNCTIONAL CLASSIFICATION WITHIN A NUTSHELL.
I GUESS, AND AGAIN, THESE ARE JUST OUR STARTING BASED ON WHAT WE ARE, WHAT WE'VE BEEN LOOKING AT, KIND OF WHAT WE SUGGEST, UM, DOESN'T NECESSARILY MEAN THAT WE HAVE TO CHANGE THOSE DESIGNATIONS.
'CAUSE I THINK A LOT OF WHAT TIES INTO THAT TOO IS, UM, YOU KNOW, LAND DEVELOPMENT, PROJECTED LAND DEVELOPMENT.
I KNOW, YOU KNOW, JESS'S BEEN BREAKING DOWN A LOT OF WHAT'S, WHAT'S LEFT TO BE DEVELOPED, WHAT'S BEEN DEVELOPED.
SO A LOT OF THAT MAY ALSO INFLUENCE AS WE SHAKE THIS COMP PLAN, YOU KNOW, OVERALL SHAKE IT THROUGH, YOU KNOW, SOME OF THESE WE MIGHT, ALTHOUGH NUMBERS OR OUR JUDGMENT MIGHT SAY WE SHOULD CHANGE CLASSIFICATION AS WE KIND OF LOOK AT THE WHOLE PICTURE, WE MAY JUST END UP SAYING IT'S PROBABLY, IT'S, I KNOW SIGNIFICANT ENOUGH TO MAKE A MAJOR CHANGE.
WELL, THAT, THAT'S MY NEXT QUESTION.
I DON'T MEAN TO KEEP ASKING QUESTIONS HERE, I APOLOGIZE.
BUT IF IT, IF IT DOESN'T REALLY, THE STATES DON'T REALLY LOOK AT AN OLD STATE ROAD UNTIL WE WOULD GO TO THEM OR THERE'D BE SOME MAJOR DEVELOPMENT OR SOMETHING, WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE? WELL, I THINK THE, THE DIFFERENCE IS WHAT I WAS MENTIONING EARLIER.
SO LIKE IF, SO IT WOULD CHANGE IN TERMS OF THE DETAILS AS, AS FAR AS YOUR REQUIREMENTS FOR LANES AND SHOULDERS AND THINGS LIKE THAT.
SO IF A ROAD IS, UM, SAY, YOU KNOW, 10 LOOK CLASSIFIED AS A COLLECTOR, TRAFFIC'S BEEN PICKING UP OVER THE YEARS ON THE ROADWAY.
CURRENTLY IT'S ONLY 10 FEET WIDE WITH NO SHOULDERS.
BUT NOW YOU HAVE, YOU KNOW, YOU WENT FROM 500 VEHICLES TO NOW 3000 VEHICLES A DAY ON THAT SECTION OF ROAD, JUST THROWING OUT AN EXAMPLE, SO, SO MAYBE 10 AND NOW YOU, YOU HAVE SOME REDIRECTED TRUCKS GOING THROUGH THERE.
YOU MAYBE IT IS, MAYBE IT'S TIME TO, YOU KNOW, THAT THAT TIES INTO LIKE, UM, COORDINATION WITH PUBLIC WORKS AND ALL THAT SORT OF STUFF.
BUT MAYBE IT'S TIME TO UP UP THE ROAD DIMENSIONS.
10 FOOT DOESN'T CUT IT ANYMORE.
WE NEED TO MAKE IT 10 WITH, OR 12 WITH FOUR FOOT SHOULDERS.
YEAH, I THINK IT'S, I THINK IT'S A COMBINATION OF LAND DEVELOPMENT.
SO WHEN SOMEONE COMES IN FOR LAND DEVELOPMENT, WE ALWAYS SAY, HEY, YOU NEED TO EITHER NEED TO WIDEN THE ROAD TO THE FULLEST EXTENT OF WHAT'S REQUIRED OF THE ORGANS, WHETHER THAT'S A COLLECTOR OR, OR ARTERIAL OR WHATEVER IT IS.
OR YOU NEED TO DEDICATE THAT, THAT RIGHT OF WAY TO US OR TO THE GOVERNING BODY OF THAT ROAD, WHETHER IT'S US OR PENDOT.
I, I THINK IT'S JUST A TOOL THAT HELPS US UNDERSTAND WHERE WE MIGHT NEED MORE ROADWAY IN THE FUTURE.
I MEAN, RIGHT NOW WE HAVE THESE ROADS DESIGNATED A LOT OF ROADS DESIGNATED AS A LOCAL ROAD.
IT'S 40 FEET WITH A 20 FOOT CART WAY REALLY ALMOST EVERYWHERE IN THIS TOWNSHIP, UNLESS IT'S WITHIN A SUBDIVISION.
ROADS SHOULDN'T BE THAT NARROW.
AND EVEN IN A SUBDIVISION, WHEN WE APPROVE A SUBDIVISION, WE DO A MINIMUM OF 35 FEET, NO, SORRY, WE DO A MINIMUM OF 32, 32 WITH A 28 FOOT WIDE CAR BIKE.
SO THE LOCAL ROADS WE HAVE IN HERE NOW AREN'T EVEN A STANDARD THAT WE FOLLOW IN THE TOWNSHIP.
YOU'RE ALWAYS GONNA RUN INTO THOSE AREAS.
MONTCLAIR AREAS OVER THE
IT DOESN'T, YOU CAN PUT A NUMBER FROM ONE TO A MILLION ON THERE AND IT'S NOT GONNA MAKE A DIFFERENCE THERE.
BUT SOME OF THESE OTHER AREAS THAT YOU STILL HAVE PORTIONS OF OLD STATE ROAD THAT MAY GET ONE HALF IS NOT DEVELOPED NOW AND MAY GET DEVELOPED IN THE FUTURE.
WE WANT, YOU KNOW, WE DON'T WANNA BE STUCK WITH A 28 FOOT WIDE ROAD.
IF WE ADD AS MANY UNITS AS THEY SAY THEY CAN ADD THERE.
AND I'M NOT NECESSARILY AGREEING WITH THEM, BUT LET'S SAY THEY ADD THAT NUMBER OF UNITS, WE WANNA BE ABLE TO SAY TO THEM, HEY, YOU NEED TO DO A 35 FOOT WIDE CAR WAY, BUT ISN'T THAT OKAY TO RECLASSIFY IT THEN AT THAT POINT? AT THAT POINT, NO, YOU WANNA BE AHEAD OF THE GAME.
I MEAN, YES, WE PROBABLY COULD AT THE TIME AND IT'S AN IMPACT AND
[01:10:01]
YOU KNOW, WE'RE GONNA HAVE TO LOOK AT THEIR IMPACTS AND DO A TRAFFIC STUDY AND ALL THAT DO AN IMPACT ANYHOW, RIGHT? YES, THEY WOULD.BUT FOR A LOT OF US, IT'S BETTER TO GET OUT IN FRONT OF IT BECAUSE THAT'S THE EXTREME EXAMPLE FOR A LARGE DEVELOPMENT, YOU STILL WANNA BE ABLE TO CAPTURE THE TWO AND THREE LOT SUBDIVISIONS THAT MAY COME TO SOME OF THESE FIVE AND 10 PER PIECES THAT WE SAW HAVE LEFT.
I DON'T WANNA SPEAK OUT OF TERM, BUT ANOTHER THING WE'RE TALKING ABOUT LANE WIDTH WITH THE ROAD OVERALL, WHEN THE DEVELOPERS ARE DOING THEIR TRAFFIC IMPACT STUDY, THEY'RE EVALUATING INTERSECTION FUNCTIONALITY TOO.
SO WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT THE INTERSECTION AT LEWIS AND VAUGHN.
WHEN YOU'RE IDENTIFYING NOT ONLY LANE WIDTHS FOR THE BIGGER TRUCKS AND THE MOVEMENTS, YOU'RE LOOKING AT, UM, FUNCTIONALITY OF THE INTERSECTION OF IT'S A LEVEL A, B, C, D AND HOW WELL THE LEVEL OF SERVICE OPERATES.
YOU MAY NEED A TURN LANE, YOU MAY NEED TO LENGTHEN A TURN LANE TO ALLOW FOR MORE STACKING, SIMILAR TO WHAT WE'RE DOING AT RITTENHOUSE ROAD AND TOWNSHIP LINE.
THEY'RE EXTENDING THAT RIGHT TURN LANE.
PEOPLE DRIVING THE GRASS THERE, YOU CAN SEE IT'S ALL MUD AND ROCK.
THEY'RE GONNA EXTEND THAT OUT AS PART OF TOLL FOLEY.
SO IF YOU ALREADY HAD THE RIGHT OF WAY WHEN A DEVELOPER COMES IN, THEY CAN JUST GO DO THAT.
VERSUS IF YOU DON'T HAVE THAT ULTIMATE RIGHT OF WAY YET, NOW YOU'RE TAKING AN EASEMENT FROM SOMEBODY OR HAVING TO GAIN THAT.
SO I THINK THAT'S WHERE JEFF'S SAYING TO GET IN FRONT OF IT, THEN YOU ALREADY HAVE THE RIGHT OF WAY IF THAT SITUATION WERE TO COME TO FRUITION WHERE YOU NEED TO ADD A TURN LANE AND YOU DON'T HAVE THE LANE ONE.
I'M NOT SAYING THAT WE HAVE TO COMMIT, I'M NOT SURE I AGREE WITH THAT, BUT I'M NOT SAYING THAT WE HAVE TO COMMIT TO THESE YES.
BUT THAT'S THE RATIONALE IS, IS YOU WANT TO BE AHEAD OF THE GAME.
WELL I RATHER THAN YOU ALWAYS SEE RATIONALE, THAT RATIONALE A LOT OF THINGS, BUT YEAH.
NO, THAT'S, THAT'S THE WHOLE, THAT'S, THERE ARE NO BAD QUESTIONS,
SO, YOU KNOW, THIS IS BASICALLY THE, YOU KNOW, THE KIND OF THE FIRST, FIRST STEP.
UM, SO WE WERE AT THE BOTTOM OF PAGE ONE.
UH, SO, SO MANY OTHER MAPS THAT ARE IDENTIFIED UNDER THAT, YOU KNOW, THE EXISTING COMP PLAN, UM, MAP 10 KEY IMPROVEMENTS.
UH, SO THOSE ARE, YOU KNOW, COMPLETED ROADWAY INTERSECTION PROJECTS OBVIOUSLY LAST CHANGED SINCE 2010.
SO, UM, YOU KNOW, JUST THE SUGGESTION WOULD BE TO JUST UPDATE AND, AND, UH, YOU KNOW, ACCOUNT FOR PROJECTS THAT HAVE BEEN COMPLETED OR, OR REMOVED.
OLD ONES THAT WERE, HAVE ALREADY BEEN COMPLETED IN THE OLD COMP PLAN.
SO THIS, THIS MAP UNDER THE CURRENT COMP PLAN, TRAFFIC CONTROL MEANING SIGNALIZE INTERSECTION.
SO, UM, THERE'S A MAP IN THERE THAT BASICALLY JUST KIND OF HAS, YOU KNOW, CIRCLES AROUND LOCATIONS WHERE THE TRAFFIC SIGNALS ARE.
UM, SO A THOUGHT WOULD BE, YOU KNOW, RATHER THAN, YOU KNOW, OBVIOUSLY THE MAPS, IT, IT MAY NOT BE OUTDATED 'CAUSE IT, IT MAY NOT BE A NON INDUCED SIGNALS OTHER THAN THE, THE DEVELOPMENTS THAT, THAT HAVE COME IN THAT HAVE GENERATED OR REQUIRED THEM.
UH, BUT THE ACT 2 0 9, UH, STUDY THAT WAS DONE AND ADOPTED NOT TOO LONG AGO, UM, I THINK, YOU KNOW, IT IS FAIRLY UPDATED, MORE UPDATED THAN THE CURRENT MAP THAT'S IN THE COMP PLAN.
SO, UH, SUGGESTION WOULD BE, YOU KNOW, THERE COULD BE REFERENCES OR WE COULD PULL ON SOME OF THAT MAPPING AND BRING IT INTO THE OLD COMP PLAN.
UM, MAP 12 DAILY TRAFFIC COUNTS, UH, YOU KNOW, THAT THAT BASICALLY JUST HAS UPDATES TYING INTO THE, WHAT WE WERE TALKING ABOUT EARLIER WITH FUNCTIONAL CLASSIFICATION.
UM, BASICALLY JUST HAS POINTS IN, IN ALL YOUR, UM, YOUR D V R P C UH, COUNT RELATED DATA, HOW MUCH, HOW MUCH VEHICLES ARE PASSING THROUGH A SPECIFIC SECTION OF ROAD.
UM, SO IT'S, YOU KNOW, SOME SUGGESTIONS WE HAVE LIKE IN THE NOTES, BASICALLY SUMMARIZING ALL THAT IS MAYBE SOME, UH, STYLISTIC UPDATES TO WHAT THOSE MAPS LOOK LIKE.
AND THOSE ARE IN ATTACHMENT D, SO WE DON'T HAVE TO GO OVER THE ATTACHMENT.
IT'S JUST THERE FOR AN EXAMPLE OF MAYBE WHAT SOME OF THAT MAPPING COULD LOOK LIKE VERSUS AS YOU COMPARE IT TO WHAT SOME OF THE MAP LOOKS LIKE IN THE CURRENT COMP PLAN.
UM, MOVING ON TO THE BOTTOM OF PAGE TWO, AND NOT TO KIND OF GO OVER THE REST OF IT IN A, LIKE A DETAILED POINT BY POINT, BUT THE TRANSPORTATION PLANNING STUDIES.
SO THAT'S, UM, YOU KNOW, HIGHLIGHT IN YOUR PAGES 66 TO SEVEN, ONE OF THE OLD COMP PLAN.
AND THAT'S BASICALLY, YOU KNOW, KIND OF DIVING IN TO WHAT YOU SEE HIGHLIGHTED THERE, SOME OF THE COMPLETED AND ONGOING PLANS IN UPPER PROVIDENCE, SOME OF THE MAPS.
UM, SO AGAIN, SO MOSTLY OUTDATED I GUESS AT THIS POINT.
MAP 14 UNDER THERE IS THE SIDEWALK SURVEY MAP.
UM, SO IT DOES IDENTIFY TRAILS IN DIFFERENT COLORS, BUT SOME OF OUR SUGGESTIONS WOULD BE, UM, YOU KNOW, MAYBE TO, TO CALL OUT SOME DIFFERENT THINGS LIKE YOUR MAIN CIRCUIT TRAILS, LIKE YOUR PER AND
[01:15:01]
PER TRAIL, YOUR SCUBA RIVER TRAIL.UM, SO YOU CAN KIND OF DIFFERENTIATE ON THE MAP, LIKE THOSE CIRCUIT TRAILS VERSUS TRAILS THAT THE TOWNSHIP IS BUILDING INTERNALLY.
UM, AND IDENTIFYING, BASICALLY PULLING FROM WORK THAT'S ALREADY BEEN DONE THROUGH THE ACTIVE TRANSPORTATION PLAN, UM, AND KIND OF IDENTIFYING WHAT SOME OF THE EXISTING NETWORKS ARE AND THEN WHAT SOME OF THE PLANS NETWORKS, UM, ARE, YOU KNOW, BASED ON THE, THE ACTIVE TRANSPORTATION PLAN AND SOME OF THE OTHER THINGS THAT MAYBE, UH, HAVE BEEN DISCUSSED SINCE WITH PARKS AND BRACK AND MAYBE EVEN WITH, UH, YOU KNOW, WITH GILMORE AND SOME OF THE, THE CURRENT PLANNING THAT'S GOING ON.
SO JUST SOME, JUST SUGGESTIONS FOR, UM, YOU UPDATING AND BASICALLY POTENTIALLY SOME VISUAL CHANGES TO HOW THOSE MAPS ARE IDENTIFIED.
UM, MOVING ON PAGE THREE, UH, AGAIN, KIND OF GOING OVER CONTINUING THAT CHAPTER, THE, THE CIRCULATION MOVEMENT OF PEOPLE AGAINST CHAPTER, UH, CONTINUED DISCUSSION, YOU KNOW, MAP BASICALLY SUGGESTIONS, UM, AND AT THE BOTTOM OF, OR I GUESS KIND OF AT THE TOP OF PAGE THREE OF THE REVIEW, THE OTHER, I THINK YOU HAD THAT P D F JEFF, THE, UM, CAPITAL IMPROVEMENT PLAN LIST.
SO, YOU KNOW, SOME OF THE, UM, YOU KNOW, AGAIN, SOME OF THE PROJECTS THAT WERE DISCUSSED IN 2010 OUTDATED.
SO, UM, IN ATTACHMENT C OF THE PACKET AND WHAT JEFF HAS ON THE SCREEN, UM, IS THE 20 20 21, UM, CAPITAL IMPROVEMENT, LIKE, KIND OF LIKE THE SHORT LIST THAT WE WERE DISCUSSING AT STAFF LEVEL.
UM, NOT ALL OF THEM OBVIOUSLY MADE THE OLD THE, THE FINAL BUDGET LAST YEAR, BUT I WANTED TO KIND OF SHOW THAT, UM, IN RELATION TO PROJECTS THAT HAVE BEEN DONE TO KIND OF HIGHLIGHT, UH, SOME THINGS THAT MAY BE WORTH UPDATING AND DISCUSSING, UM, IN A REVISED, UH, SECTION OF THE COMP PLAN, FOR EXAMPLE, ON THE MAP HERE, SOME OF THE GREEN HIGHLIGHTS ARE BASICALLY THINGS THAT WERE, UH, PLANNED FOR OR ARE, UM, TARGETED OVER THE LAST YEAR OR TWO, UM, THAT HAVE SINCE, BECAUSE OF THE GREAT WORK THAT WAS DONE, UH, YOU KNOW, THAT THE TOWNSHIP DID TO PASS THE ACTIVE TRANSPORTATION PLAN AND IDENTIFY PRIORITY PROJECTS.
UM, AND ALSO THE ACT, THE, THE ADOPTING THE ACT 2 0 9 AND, AND LOOKING AT SOME OF THE ACT 2 0 9, UM, IMPROVEMENTS, UM, WE WERE ABLE TO, TO MAKE SOME HEADWAY ON SOME GRANT, UM, AWARDS.
AND WHAT YOU SEE ON THE CURRENT, UM, CAPITAL IMPROVEMENT LIST FOR 2021 AND HIGHLIGHTED IN GREEN ARE BASICALLY PROJECTS THAT WERE, UM, YOU KNOW, KIND OF EVALUATED IN ACT 2 0 9 AND THE ACTIVE TRANSPORTATION PLAN.
UM, AND THAT ULTIMATELY SECURED GRANTS THAT WERE MOVING FORWARD WITHIN THE TOWNSHIP.
SO, UM, YOU KNOW, POINT THAT OUT TO JUST KIND OF SHOW HOW A LOT OF THESE CHANGES THAT THE TOWNSHIP'S BEEN DOING IS, IS TURNING INTO SOME GOOD FRUIT AND ALSO, YOU KNOW, WORTH PROBABLY HIGHLIGHTING IN AN UPDATED COMP PLAN.
UM, SO THAT'S, YOU KNOW, ESSENTIALLY, UM, CAPITAL IMPROVEMENT PLANS, UH, PEDESTRIAN PLANS THAT, THAT'S WHERE DISCUSSION, I GUESS THAT'S, THAT'S TYPICAL TO A TRANSPORTATION RELATED COMP PLAN DISCUSSION.
UM, ON PAGE FOUR OF THAT REVIEW, UM, SUMMARY, UH, IS BASICALLY, I WON'T GET INTO THIS IN A LOT OF DETAIL, BUT BASICALLY THAT POTENTIAL OUTLINE WOULD BE GENERALLY LIKE, KIND OF SUMMARIZES LIKE HOW WE WOULD ENVISION MAYBE TACKLING THAT MOVEMENT OF TRANSPORTATION GOODS SECTION AND HOW TO MAYBE ARRANGE IT POSSIBLY, OR GIVE, GIVE YOU SOME THOUGHTS ON MAYBE HOW IT COULD BE ARRANGED, IDENTIFIED, CATEGORIZED, SEPARATED, UM, AND A LOT OF TEXT.
BUT IF IT FOR A VISUAL EXAMPLE OF WHAT THAT COULD LOOK LIKE, UM, I PROVIDED AN EXAMPLE AND ATTACHMENT HALF OF THE PACKET.
UM, AND THAT'S A RECENT CERTAIN TRANSPORTATION, UM, YOU KNOW, FULL ON TRANSPORTATION SECTION OF A COMP PLAN CHANGE THAT WE'VE BEEN A PART OF, UM, NOT, YOU KNOW, IN THE LAST YEAR OR SO.
UM, TO KIND OF GIVE YOU AN IDEA OF, OF WHAT MAY BE SOME OF THE MORE CURRENT COMP PLANS, HOW, HOW THEY MAY BE, UM, VISUALLY CATEGORIES SEPARATED, UH, PUT TOGETHER BASICALLY, UM, WHICH IS A LOT DIFFERENT THAN WHAT'S IN THE, THE CURRENT COMP PLANS.
SO AGAIN, THESE AREN'T ANY, NOTHING'S MUST DO THESE SORTS OF THINGS, BUT IT WANTED TO KIND OF POINT THEM OUT TO KIND OF SHOW EVERYONE, UH, HOW SOME OF THE MORE CURRENT RECENT COMP PLANS ARE, ARE MAYBE, UM, DISCUSSING SOME OF THESE THINGS AND IDENTIFYING THEM AND, AND, AND, UM, TACKLING THE, THE, THE TEXT AND GOALS AND DIFFERENT THINGS.
UM, SO WHAT'S IN, WHAT'S IDENTIFIED AS POTENTIAL OUTLINE IN PAGES FOUR
[01:20:01]
AND FIVE, ESSENTIALLY OF THE SUMMARY SHEET? UM, THE, THE A HIGHLIGHT, A VISUAL HIGHLIGHT FOR THAT IS AN ATTACHMENT F OF THE PACKET.SO, UM, WON'T RUN OVER ALL THOSE DETAIL UNLESS THERE'S QUESTIONS, BUT YOU KNOW, IT'S KIND OF SUMMARIZES TEXT.
AND AGAIN, ATTACHMENT F KIND OF SHOWS A, A VISUAL EXAMPLE OF WHAT THAT COULD LOOK LIKE, SOME IDEAS FOR WHAT IT COULD LOOK LIKE POTENTIALLY.
AND WHAT'S THE, UH, WHAT'S THE, UH, I DON'T THINK I HAVE A GOOD UNDERSTANDING.
WHAT'S THE STATE'S OUTLOOK OR THEIR, THEIR VIEW OF TRAFFIC SIGNALS IN WHAT ROUNDABOUTS, WHAT, WHEN IT, WELL, WHAT, WHAT'S THEIR CRITERIA FOR PUTTING A TRAFFIC SIGNAL VERSUS LEAVING IT OF NO TRAFFIC WITH STOP SIGNS OR A ROUNDABOUT OR WHAT, WHAT'S THEIR CRITERIA? IT'S SOMETHING, IT SOMEWHERE ALONG THE LINE, EITHER, YOU KNOW, A REDDIT ON TV OR SOMETHING I, THAT THE STATE WAS FOR TRAFFIC SIGNAL SIGNALS, EVEN THEY DIDN'T LIKE IT.
THEY WERE TRYING TO ELIMINATE TRAFFIC SIGNALS.
THEY WANTED OTHER WAYS, ROUNDABOUTS, FOR INSTANCE MM-HMM.
SO WHAT IS THE, WHAT, WHAT IS THE PROCESS? OR THAT'S PROBABLY TOO BIG A QUESTION.
WHAT'S WHAT, WHAT'S THE CRITERIA FOR PUTTING A TRAFFIC SIGNAL? YEAH, I THINK I, I, YEAH, GENERALLY LIKE WHAT, WHAT GOES INTO THAT PROCESS ESSENTIALLY? SO WE, SO, UH, ESSENTIALLY THERE'S DIFFERENT, SO PENNDOT HAS, UM, CATEGORIES FOR WARRANTING A TRAFFIC SIGNAL.
UM, SO THEY'RE BASED ON DIFFERENT THINGS.
I MEAN, ONE OF THE TRAFFIC IS THE, IS THE BIGGEST, UM, ELEMENTS TO IT, BUT THEY HAVE, I THINK IT'S ABOUT EIGHT TO 10 DIFFERENT, LIKE WHAT THEY CALL WARRANTS THAT NEED TO BE EVALUATED IN AN ANALYSIS, IN A TRAFFIC STUDY.
WHENEVER, UM, YOU KNOW, DEVELOPMENT COMES THROUGH OR WHENEVER AN INTERSECTION IS BEING IDENTIFIED, LIKE FOR EXAMPLE, WE DID A, WE DID A LOT OF THAT SORT OF EVALUATION IN THE ACT 2 0 9 STUDY IS YOU'RE LOOKING AT EXISTING TRAFFIC, PROJECTED TRAFFIC BASED ON LAND DEVELOPMENT IN THE AREA.
AND THEN YOU'RE LOOKING AT COMPARING THAT AGAINST PENDO CRITERIA FOR WHAT WOULD WARRANT A SIGNAL THROUGH VOLUME THRESHOLDS.
YOU'RE, UH, LEVELS OF SERVICE AT AN INTERSECTION WHICH HAS, WHICH, YOU KNOW, TIES INTO, UM, UH, YOU KNOW, THE, THE CONTROL, HOW MANY LANES YOU HAVE, HOW MANY, UH, HOW MANY, UM, HOW MANY MOVEMENTS YOU HAVE IN AN INTERSECTION.
UM, SO THERE, THERE'S DIFFERENT CATEGORIES OF CRITERIA.
AND, AND YOU HAVE TO MEET, I THINK IT'S, I BELIEVE IT MIGHT BE FOUR OUT OF ALL OF THEIR CATEGORIES, A MINIMUM FOUR TO TO CLASS A WARRANT, A TRAFFIC SIGNAL.
SO YOU KIND OF LOOK AT WHAT'S HAPPENING TODAY, WHAT'S PLANNED IN THE FUTURE, AND YOU'RE COMPILING THAT DATA, THE VOLUME, AND YOU'RE ASSESSING IT AT VARIOUS INTERSECTIONS.
AND YOU'RE SEEING, YOU KNOW, WHAT'S THE, WHAT'S THE DELAY OUT THERE, UM, WHAT'S THE, UH, WHAT'S THE CAPACITY? DO YOU HAVE ENOUGH LANES? DO YOU WARRANT LANES? MIGHT BE TWO LANES TODAY MIGHT WARRANT A LEFT TURN LANE IN EACH DIRECTION.
SO ALL THAT KIND OF FACTORS IN.
UM, AND THEN ULTIMATELY BEFORE PENDOT MAKES A DECISION, SO YOU COULD PROVIDE YOUR ANALYSIS AND SAY, HEY, THIS INTERSECTION COULD WARRANT A TRAFFIC SIGNAL BECAUSE WE MEET ALL OF YOUR CRITERIA, YOU KNOW, A THROUGH WHATEVER.
UM, BUT THEN PENDO TAKES IT A STEP FURTHER.
GOING BACK TO YOUR POINT AS TO, WELL, WE DON'T, JUST, JUST BECAUSE IT MEETS WARRANTS FOR A TRAFFIC SIGNAL DOESN'T MEAN THAT'S BEST FOR AN INTERSECTION.
SO THEY, THEY KIND OF DIVE INTO THAT EVEN A LITTLE BIT IN MORE DETAIL.
AND, UH, THERE'S WORKSHEETS AND IT'S A WHOLE COMPLICATED HODGEPODGE, BUT THERE'S WORKSHEETS BASICALLY THAT YOU KIND OF DRILL DOWN ON.
THEY ASK YOU VARIOUS QUESTIONS LIKE, WHAT'S HAPPENING IN THE TOWNSHIP? UM, UH, WHAT SORT OF RIGHT OF WAYS IS AVAILABLE? 'CAUSE YOU, YOU COULD HAVE AN INTERSECTION LIKE LOUIS AND VO COULD BE AN EXAMPLE.
'CAUSE THAT WAS ONE THAT THE ACT 2 0 9 IDENTIFIED, AND I THINK EVERYONE UNDERST UNDERSTANDS THE TRAFFIC IMPACTS OR THE, THE TRAFFIC IN THAT AREA.
UM, SO WHEN WE LOOKED AT THE WARRANTS THAT MEET THESE CRITERIA, UM, THAT INTERSECTION, LOUIS VAUGHN MET WARRANTS FOR TRAFFIC SIGNAL OR AROUND ABOUT SOME SORT OF CONTROLLED INTERSECTION.
UM, SO AND I LOOKS AT THAT AND SAYS, OKAY, UM, WE HAVE A, WE HAVE A, UH, A CANDIDATE HERE FOR SOME CONTROLLED IMPROVEMENT, WHETHER THAT'S STOP SIGNS, WHETHER IT'S INTER TRAFFIC SIGNAL OR ROUNDABOUT.
UM, SO THEN YOU EACH ONE OF THOSE COMPONENTS WHEN YOU RUN ANALYSIS, THEY, THEY HAVE DIFFERENT FACTORS, YOU KNOW, SO IT COULD LOOK GREAT IN ALL CATEGORIES.
IT COULD LOOK BETTER IN A SIGNAL CATEGORY VERSUS A ROUNDABOUT.
SO YOU, YOU KIND OF DO THE BEST FIT FOR WHAT IMPROVES OVERALL, UM, TRAFFIC AT THE LOCATION.
AND THEN THAT GETS THAT HONES IN ON WHETHER YOU DO A SIGNAL STOP SIGN OR, OR ROUNDABOUT.
SO A STUDY WOULD EVENTUALLY WOULD, WOULD SHOW YOU WHAT KIND
[01:25:01]
OF CONTROL YOU NEED, YOU KNOW, SO IT'S ON FREE FLOW TODAY, YOU NEED SOMETHING, WHAT DO YOU NEED? YOU, YOU DO THE ANALYSIS TO FIGURE THAT OUT.AND THEN PENDOT AND THE TRAFFIC ENGINEER HONES IN EVEN FURTHER AND KIND OF SHOWS YOU THE PROS AND CONS TO ALL SCENARIOS AND WHETHER OR NOT THEY'RE EVEN, THEY WOULD EVEN MAKE SENSE AT A LOCATION STOP SIGNS, FOR EXAMPLE, VERSUS SIGNAL VERSUS ROUND THEABOUT.
WELL, IS IT FAIR TO SAY THAT PENNDOT IS NOT, UH, FAVORING TRAFFIC SIGNALS MOVING FORWARD? WELL, I, YEAH, I MEAN THERE, THERE'S CERTAINLY, THERE'S BEEN A PUSH FOR ROUNDABOUTS.
UM, BUT UM, AND THAT'S, THERE, THERE'S A LOT OF THINGS THAT GO INTO TRAP.
YOU KNOW, YOU START ADDING CORRIDORS, YOU KNOW, YOU LOOK AT ROUTE 29, FOR EXAMPLE, IN THE TOWNSHIP, YOU HAVE SIGNAL, SIGNAL, YOU KNOW, AS A MUL, MULTI CONNECTED SIGNAL SYSTEM, UH, YOU KNOW, THE 4 22 RAMPS, RIVER CREST, ET CETERA.
UM, SO THE MORE TRAFFIC YOU HAVE, YOU, YOU HAVE YOUR TRAFFIC SIGNAL NEEDS ARE INSTALLED, THE MORE CONNECTIVITY YOU HAVE BETWEEN THEM, THE MORE COMMUNICATION YOU NEED, THE MORE INFRASTRUCTURE YOU NEED.
AND IT'S A MAINTENANCE BURDEN AS WELL.
UM, YOU KNOW, THE, THE BIGGEST DIFFERENTIATOR BETWEEN THE TRAFFIC SIGNALS AND THE ROUNDABOUT IS FOOTPRINT AND, AND COSTS AND INITIAL UPFRONT COSTS.
SO WHEN YOU DO A ROUNDABOUT, IT TAKES UP A BIGGER FOOTPRINT THAN, THAN A CONVENTIONAL TRAFFIC SIGNAL WOULD.
UH, SO THAT HAS RIGHT AWAY IMPLICATIONS AND YOU, YOU NEED MORE AVAILABLE SPACE TO DO A ROUNDABOUT THAN YOU WOULD USUALLY A TRAFFIC SIGNAL.
UM, SO AND I IS LOOKING AT IT AS, YOU KNOW, IF, IF YOU MEET INTERSECTION CONTROL WARRANTS, SO YOU NEED A SIGNAL OR A ROUNDABOUT, AND IF YOU HAVE THE ROOM, I THINK THEIR PREFERENCE IS LEANING TOWARDS ROUNDABOUTS VERSUS THE, THE, THE TRAFFIC SIGNALS.
AND PLUS IT DEPENDS ON WHAT'S AROUND.
SO FOR EXAMPLE, IF YOU LOOK AT, UH, UH, D DR THIS ROAD, SECOND AVENUE ONE 13, UM, SO WE'RE, WE'RE CURRENTLY IN THE PROCESS OF WORKING ON, UH, ROUNDABOUT DESIGN FOR THAT LOCATION.
THAT WAS ONE OF THOSE INTERSECTIONS THAT, THAT WARRANTED SOME SORT OF CONTROL SIGNAL OR ROUNDABOUT.
WE FLUSHED OUT SCENARIOS AND HAD THAT COORDINATION WITH PENDI.
BUT WHEN YOU LOOK, IF YOU LOOK AT THAT LOCATION, YOU SAY TRAFFIC SIGNAL, I THINK EVERYONE WILL LOOK AT YOU LIKE, WHAT'S, ARE YOU SERIOUS? YOU KNOW, BECAUSE THERE'S, IF YOU LOOK, THERE'S NOT, THERE'S NO TRAFFIC SIGNALS ANYWHERE NEARBY.
SO A LOT OF THAT PLAYS INTO IT A LOT OF THE TIMES TOO, LIKE, SO IF YOU'RE IN A CAR THAT ALREADY HAS SIGNALS AND IT MIGHT MEET, IT MIGHT BE GOOD ROUNDABOUT SIGNAL BY EITHER ONE FUNCTIONS, IT, IT MAY MAKE SENSE TO DO A SIGNAL JUST BECAUSE OF HOW EVERYTHING'S ALREADY COORDINATED VERSUS THAT THE OTHER EXAMPLE OF SECOND ONE 13 AND DR JUST BEING OUT AND OPEN, ESSENTIALLY NO OTHER SIGNALS ANYWHERE AROUND THE, THE INTERSECTION MAY WARRANT EITHER OR, UM, BUT IT WOULD MAKE SENSE TO, TO DO A ROUNDABOUT AT THAT LOCATION BECAUSE THERE'S, THERE'S NOTHING ELSE TO TIE INTO.
UM, SO I DON'T THINK IT'S KIND OF A CONVOLUTED ANSWER, BUT IT, THAT'S ALL THE KIND OF THINGS THAT GET EVALUATED IN DETERMINING WHETHER, WHETHER YOU NEED ONE OR NOT, WHAT YOU CHOOSE.
ISN'T THERE ONE OTHER THING TOO? THE ALMIGHTY DOLLAR MM-HMM.
SOMETIMES CORPORATIONS WANT TO BUILD A PLANT AND, AND THEY'RE WILLING TO CHIP IN SO MANY THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS TOWARDS THE TRAFFIC LIGHT AT THE END OF THEIR ROAD.
YEAH, THE, UH, YEAH, GENERALLY WHEN YOU, WHEN YOU RUN COSTS FOR SIGNAL VERSUS ROUNDABOUT, UM, THE UPFRONT COSTS ARE USUALLY ALWAYS HIGHER WITH THE ROUNDABOUT BECAUSE OF THE AMOUNT OF SPACE THAT YOU NEED.
UH, YOU KNOW, THE LARGE CIRCULAR AREA THAT YOU HAVE AND THEN ALL THE LEGS AND THINGS YOU'RE DOING TAKES UP A LARGE FOOTPRINT TO GET 'EM IN TO SEE JUST SINGLE LANE ROUNDABOUTS.
UM, WITH TRAFFIC SIGNALS, YOU'RE MORE CONDENSED IN YOUR ROADWAY WIDTHS.
UM, BUT THERE'S A LOT OF, YOUR UPFRONT COSTS MIGHT BE CHEAPER, BUT THEN TO THE MUNICIPALITY, 'CAUSE OF THOSE TRAFFIC SIGNAL MAINTENANCE COSTS ALWAYS GO BACK TO THE TOWNSHIP.
SO PENN OUT WILL ISSUE THEIR PERMITS AND MAKE SURE EVERYTHING'S THE SAME AND COORDINATED, UH, BUT THEY WON'T MAINTAIN THOSE ELEMENTS THAT FALLS ON THE LOCAL MUNICIPALITY TO MAINTAIN THOSE TRAFFIC SIGNALS.
SO IN THE LONG RUN, THOSE TRAFFIC SIGNALS MAY COST YOU MORE IN THE LIFESPAN OF, OF THE SIGNAL, UM, BUT IT WOULD BE CHEAPER TO DO INITIALLY VERSUS THE ROUNDABOUT, WHICH WILL SAVE YOU A LOT OF MAINTENANCE COSTS IN THE FUTURE.
'CAUSE THOSE HAVE A, USUALLY LIKE A 20 YEAR SHELF LIFE GENERALLY.
UM, UM, SO IT'S MORE UPFRONT COSTS, BUT IN THE LONG RUN IT SAVES MUNICIPALITIES MONEY 'CAUSE YOU'RE NOT DEALING WITH LIGHT BULBS GOING OUT, WIRES UNDER YOUR ROADS FAILING, YOU KNOW, UH, MASS ARMY GETS KNOCKED DOWN, NOW YOU HAVE A CONTROLLER, YOU HAVE FUNCTIONALITY PROBLEMS AND NEW WIRES THAT YOU RUN AND DOES DIFFERENT THINGS.
SO THAT'S USUALLY ROUNDABOUTS IN THE LONG RUN ARE CHEAPER MAINTENANCE WISE,
[01:30:01]
BUT UPFRONT THEY'RE MORE EXPENSIVE THAN SIGNALS THE OTHER WAY AROUND.SO, UM, SO YEAH, SO THAT MM-HMM.
TRAFFIC I THINK IN A NUTSHELL.
UNLESS THERE'S ANY OTHER QUESTIONS BUT, OH, I CAN KEEP THIS HERE.
APPROVAL
UM, TO GO THROUGH THAT COMP PLAN DRAFT THAT I GAVE YOU LAST WEEK, I NEED TO FILL IN A FEW THINGS, SOME PICTURES, SOME GRAPHICS, SOME BACKGROUND, UM, WORK THROUGH SOME OF THAT.
I'M KIND OF THINKING THAT WE, WE DON'T HAVE ANY LAND DEVELOPMENTS THAT ARE COMING IN THAT WE HAVE TO DEAL WITH.
SO I, I THINK IF THE BOARD'S OKAY WITH IT, IF THE COMMISSION'S OKAY WITH IT, WE CANCELED THE FIRST MEETING IN OCTOBER AND WE TENTATIVELY HOLD THE SECOND MEETING IN OCTOBER FOR, UM, LAND DEVELOPMENT PLANS THAT MAY COME IN FOR, WELL, WE'RE NOT GONNA GET TO REVIEW 'EM AT THIS POINT, BUT ANY FINAL PLANS THAT WE HAVE, UM, SORT OF PENDING THAT WE WANT TO, THAT GET PUSHED FORWARD, THAT ARE CLEANED UP AS, JUST A QUICK ASIDE, WE'VE HAD TWO ZONING HEARING BOARDS.
WE'VE HAD AMELIA STREET, THEY'VE COME IN FOR THEIR, THEIR STEEP SLOPE SPECIAL EXCEPTIONS THAT, UM, MEETING WAS LONG LONGER THAN THIS ONE.
UM, AND THE BOARD, THE ZONING HEARING BOARD DID NOT MAKE A DECISION YET.
I DON'T KNOW WHERE THEY'RE AT.
I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE DECISION'S GONNA BE FOR OR AGAINST.
I, I, THEY DELIBERATE, I'M NOT INVOLVED.
SO I DON'T KNOW WHEN THAT ONE WILL BE HEARD AGAIN OR WHEN THEY'LL COME BACK.
UM, FOLEY TOLL FOLEY CAME AND THEY GOT LAST NIGHT, GOT THEIR SPECIAL EXCEPTIONS AND VARIANCES FOR BUILDING CONSTRUCTION STEEP SLOPES WHERE THEY ARE.
SO THEY'RE GOOD AND READY TO GO NOW.
THEY JUST HAVE TO UPDATE THEIR FINAL PLANS TO REFLECT THAT.
I THINK GENERALLY THE FINAL PLANS ARE CLOSE.
SO WHEN I WAS TALKING TO BRIAN FROM TOLL LAST NIGHT, HE WAS KIND OF THINKING THAT MAYBE WE COULD GET ON FOR THE SECOND MEETING IN, IN OCTOBER TO HAVE THE FINAL PLAN AGAIN, FINAL PLANS ARE REALLY JUST SORT OF ADMINISTRATIVE.
THERE'S NOT REALLY A LOT TO TALK ABOUT, BUT, SO WE'LL HOLD IT.
IF IT'S OKAY, WE'LL HOLD THE SECOND MEETING IN OCTOBER, JUST IN RESERVE.
NOW IF THOSE FINAL PLANS GET CLEAN, IF NOT, I'D LIKE TO TAKE THAT TIME OFF AND COME BACK AND DO THE COMP PLAN IN NOVEMBER AGAIN AND DO LAND USE AND CLEAN UP AND ALL THAT STUFF.
AND JUST GIVE THE THREE OF US THE NEXT MONTH TO SORT OF COORDINATE ALL THE INFORMATION WE'VE GIVEN YOU INTO ONE COHESIVE DOCUMENT AND THEN START TALKING ABOUT SOME LAND USE, UM, LAND USE.
WE'LL TALK ABOUT SOME GOALS BECAUSE WE DO NEED TO IDENTIFY SOME GOALS, UM, JUST OVERALL GOALS FOR THE PLAN.
AND THEN SOME LAND USE ACTION ITEMS AND LAND USE PROJECTIONS FOR THE TOWNSHIP.
SO THAT WOULD BE THE NOVEMBER MEETING.
SO WOULD YOU SAY WE'LL CANCEL THE FOURTH YES.
HOLD THE 18TH, AND THEN MOVE TO NOVEMBER.
AND MOVE THE COUNSELING IN NOVEMBER.
AND THEN THE UNDERSTANDING THAT IF THERE'S NO LAND DEVELOPMENTS THAT ARE READY FOR THE 18TH, WE'RE GONNA GO AHEAD AND CANCEL THAT ONE TOO.
SO DO WE DO NEED A MOTION ON THAT? YEAH.
DO YOU HAVE A PLAN? SO WE'LL CANCEL THE FOURTH.
WE WILL KEEP THE 18TH AS TENTATIVE WITH THE POSSIBILITY OF CANCELING IT IF THERE'S NO DEVELOPMENT PLANS AND MOVE EVERYTHING TO NOVEMBER REGULAR SCHEDULE.
DO I HAVE A MOTION? I'LL MAKE THAT MOTION.
BOB MADE THE MOTION TO SECOND.
THAT'S OUR MONTH, THAT'S OUR NEXT TWO MONTHS.
THANKSGIVING THAN YOU MR. PIERCE.
YOU WANT TO INCLUDE H THERE? WHAT'S THAT? YOU WANT ME TO INCLUDE HALLOWEEN IN THERE? YOU GOT A 12 YEAR OLD KID.
I JUST LIKE, COULDN'T BELIEVE IT WHEN I WALKED INTO LOWE'S IN JULY.
ALRIGHT, ROBERT, I'LL TAKE A MOTION.
I'LL, UH, I'LL MAKE THAT MOTION.
AND NICOLE, CAN I HAVE A SECOND? I'LL SECOND THAT MOTION.
MOTION OR, UH, MOTION CARRIED.
THANK YOU GUYS FOR ALL YOUR THANK.