[00:00:04]
[CALL TO ORDER / ROLL CALL]
CALL.THAT ON JOE, IN THE TOWNSHIP, SOLICITOR AIJ KRUPA, UH, PLANNING COMMISSION MEMBER, TOM WRIGHT, PLANNING, COMMISSION CHAIR, BOB HEIST, PLANNING COMMISSION, VICE CHAIR, NICOLA, DANE, SECRETARY, JEN GUT SHAW FROM THE ENGINEER'S OFFICE, GILMORE AND ASSOCIATES AND ANTHONY VALENCIA FROM MCMAHON AND THE LIPINSKI'S ARE IN THE AUDIENCE AND ONLY AUDIENCE.
SO THEY ARE THE, THEY ARE THE AUDIENCE.
WELL, OBVIOUSLY, UH, WE HAVE A, UH, LIMITED, UH, UH, AGENDA THIS EVENING.
WE HAVE NO PRESENTERS, CORRECT? CORRECT.
AND WE JUST HAVE A COUPLE, UH, CHANGES OR UPDATES WE'RE GOING TO GO THROUGH.
UM, I GUESS WE SHOULD BE FORMAL AND SAFE IF THERE'S ARE.
YES, I WAS GOING TO GET THERE.
ANY COMMENTS FROM THE GALLERY THREE REAL WE'LL WAIT.
OH, COULD YOU TURN, CAN YOU USE THE MIC PLEASE? WE ARE.
WE'RE WAITING TO SEE IF YOU HAVE ANY COMMENTS, ANY OFFICIAL COMMENTS FOR THE RECORD.
WE'LL WE'LL MAKE SURE WE GIVE YOU COME BACK AROUND TO YOU.
UH, SO WITH NOTHING GOING ON WITH COMMENTS, WE'LL
[GENERAL DISCUSSION ITEMS]
MOVE TO, UH, UH, UH, ACCEPTING THE MINUTES FROM OUR MARCH MEETING.UM, IS EVERYBODY HAD A CHANCE TO READ AND REVIEW THE, UH, MARCH 16TH, I GUESS IT WAS MEETING? UM, IF SO, AND EVERYBODY'S OKAY.
I'LL TAKE A MOTION TO APPROVE THE MINUTES FROM MARCH 16TH.
I MOVED TO ACCEPT THE MINUTES AS WRITTEN FOR MARCH 16TH.
NICOLE HAS SECONDED THAT MOTION ALL IN FAVOR.
SO WE HAVE APPROVED THE MINUTES FROM MARCH 16TH.
SO I GUESS ON THE AGENDA NIGHT, WE HAVE A COUPLE OF UPDATES OR APPROVALS OR THINGS TO LOOK AT.
UH, I GUESS JEFF WILL TELL US WHAT WE NEED TO DO HERE, BUT LET'S LOOK AT THE ZONING TEXT AMENDMENT.
WHAT WE TRY TO DO IS, AS WE NOTICE FLAWS IN THE ORANGE ARE THINGS THAT CHANGE IN THE ORDINANCE.
WE TRY TO KEEP TRACK OF THEM AND THEN LUMP THEM ALL TOGETHER INTO ONE BIG CHANGE.
SO I ASKED JOE TO GO THROUGH AND MAKE SOME CHANGES AND I'LL LET HIM EXPLAIN THE FIRST PORTION OF IT.
AND THEN WE'LL GET INTO SOME REPAIRING BUFFER STUFF.
SECOND, THE, UM, THESE NUMBERED PARAGRAPHS IN THIS DRAFT DON'T HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH EACH OTHER BECAUSE IT'S A CLEANUP THING.
SO IT'S JUST A BUNCH OF STUFF LIKE CLEANING UP, DOING HOUSE CLEANING, AND THEY'RE ALL COMPLETELY UNRELATED TO ONE ANOTHER.
UM, THE FIRST ONE, THE HEIGHT IN THE, UM, UH, THE VP DISTRICT THAT, THAT WAS JUST TO MAKE IT THE SAME HEIGHT AS APPLIES.
IT THAT EXISTS IN ALL THE OTHER DISTRICTS.
SO THAT WAS JUST A CLEANUP FOR HEIGHT.
UM, THE SECOND ONE HAD TO DO WITH CORNER LOTS WHERE, WHERE PEOPLE COULD GET CUTE WITH SAYING THAT IF THEY HAD THE TWO FRONT YARDS THAT THE LIMITATION THAT'S IN THE SETBACK FOR ACCESSORY STRUCTURE IS ONLY APPLIED TO THE ONE SIDE AND NOT BOTH SIDES.
SO TO AVOID PEOPLE SAYING THAT WE MADE IT CLEAR THAT IT APPLIES TO BOTH OF THE FRONT YARDS, THE, AND STOP ME IF YOU HAVE ANY COMMENTS OR QUESTIONS WITH ANY OF THESE, THE THIRD ONE, UM, MURALS.
THIS IS, THERE'S NOT A LOT OF WORDS ON THE PAGE, BUT THERE'S A LOT TO THIS.
IT'S A VERY COMPLICATED ANALYSIS WITH RESPECT TO MURALS, BECAUSE YOU CANNOT THROUGH YOUR ORDINANCE PREJUDGE, ARTISTIC EXPRESSION.
AND SO YOU, SO IF IT'S COMMERCIAL, THEN IT HAS TO COMPLY WITH THE ORDINANCE.
AND IF IT'S PURELY AN EXPRESSION OF AN ARTISTIC CONCEPT, THEN IT'S NOT, OH, IT STILL IS.
BUT ONLY ON THINGS LIKE IT HAS TO BE STRUCTURALLY SOUND, YOU CAN'T REALLY LIMIT THE CONTENT OF IT.
AND, UM, THIS IS LANGUAGE THAT I PREPARED IN ANOTHER MUNICIPALITY THAT ACTUALLY KIND OF CAUGHT ON A LOT OF SOLICITORS ARE ADOPTING IT NOW, UM, ALL AROUND THE COUNTY, UH, TO ADDRESS MURALS.
AND SO WHAT IT REALLY IS SAY, IT TRIES TO DANCE AROUND THE EDGES TO NOT PREJUDGE WHAT'S IN IT, BUT LOOK IN THE TOTALITY.
IT, WHETHER IT IS RELATED TO SELLING SOMETHING AND THE, THE CASE WHERE THIS GOT KICKED OFF WAS A STORE THAT SOLD TROPICAL SMOOTHIES.
AND THEY PAINTED THE WHOLE SIDEWALL OF THE BUILDING BECAUSE THERE WAS NOT ANOTHER, THE, THE CORNER LOT WAS TORN DOWN.
SO THEIR SIDEWALL FACED OUT TO THE STREET AND THEY PAINTED THE ENTIRE SIDEWALL WITH A TROPICAL SCENE.
AND THEN IN THE MIDDLE OF IT, THEY KEPT PRESSING.
THEN THEY PAINTED LIKE A PERSON WHO APPEARED TO BE DRINKING A SMOOTHIE IN THE MIDDLE OF THIS LUSH PARADISE.
THEN THEY PUT THE WORD SMOOTHIE ON THE TOP OF THE WALL.
[00:05:01]
AND THAT'S KIND OF WHEN IT TRIPPED THE NOTICE OF THE ZONING ENFORCEMENT OFFICER AND A HUGE FIGHT ENSUED.AND THIS LANGUAGE CAME OUT OF ALL THAT.
UM, SO I DON'T KNOW THE EXTENT TO WHICH JEFF IS YET ADDRESSING IT IN THE TOWNSHIP OR ENCOUNTERING IT.
THE ONLY REASON IT CAME UP WAS BECAUSE LOCK 29, THE, THE RESTAURANT AT THE, AT THE, WHAT I CALL IT CANAL BAR ACROSS THE STREET FROM THE, FROM, UM, PREVIOUS JUNCTION, THEY CAME IN FOR A MURAL AND DEAL.
ONLY WAY I COULD EVALUATE IT WAS TO SAY, IT'S A SIGN.
THEY WENT THROUGH THE ZONING HEARING BOARD PROCESS, AND I HAPPENED TO MENTION IT TO JOE.
HE'S LIKE, I'VE GOT GREAT LANGUAGE ON A MURAL.
AND SO WE'VE BEEN HOLDING THIS UNTIL WE GET TO THIS POINT OF HAVING A CLEANUP ORDINANCE, BUT THAT'S THE ONLY TIME IT'S COME UP SO FAR.
SO HOPEFULLY IT MAKES IT A LITTLE SMOOTHER FOR NEXT TIME.
AND WE DON'T HAVE TO SEND THEM THE ZONING HEARING BOARD, WHICH THEY OBVIOUSLY GOT THE RELIEF THEY WANTED BECAUSE IT'S ACTUALLY A PRETTY NICE MURAL OR MURALS UP THERE.
SO HOW WOULD YOU AVENUE AND HIS WORK, WHICH IS ON THE SIDE OF THE WAREHOUSE AND IT'S COVERS THE WHOLE MUST BE A HUNDRED AND SOME FEET LONG.
AND IT, IT DEPICTS THE HISTORY, THE HISTORY OF VERSE FOUR, WHICH IS KIND OF, SO I HAD THE ONE TOO.
BUT THOSE ARE, THOSE ARE NOT THAT ONES.
THE PHOENIXVILLE ONE WAS JUST SORT OF A MONTAGE OF DIFFERENT INDUSTRIES THAT EXISTED OVER TIME.
IT WASN'T SELLING A PRODUCT OR ANYTHING.
SO THERE'S NO ZONING FOR THOSE TYPES OF ARTWORK.
WELL, YOU COULD LATER DECIDE IF YOU WANT, IF YOU WANT TO LIMIT THE LIMIT MURALS BY ZONING DISTRICT, YOU KNOW, AND NOT HAVE ANY OF THEM IN AN ARWAN OR SOMETHING, BUT, UM, IN TERMS OF WHETHER IT IS A, THE WHOLE THING IS WHETHER YOU'RE TRIGGERING THE COMMERCIAL SIGN ORDINANCE.
SO YOU'RE NOT TRIGGERING THE COMMERCIAL SIDE, THEN IT'S A WHOLE DIFFERENT, IT'S A WHOLE DIFFERENT ANIMAL, A WHOLE DIFFERENT SECTION OF WHATEVER ZONING IRRITATION.
WELL, BECAUSE FREE SPEECH RIGHTS ARE NOT IMPLICATED IN, IN COMMERCIAL SIGNAGE.
AND IF IT'S, SO IF IT'S NOT COMMERCIAL, THEN IT'S A FREE SPEECH ISSUE.
APPROPRIATE CAN ONLY BE ADDRESSED TO THE EXTENT OF SEXUAL DEPICTIONS OR DRUGS OR VIOLENT OR EXTREME VIOLENCE, BUT NOT THE CONTENT, WHICH IS, THERE ARE SOME INTERESTING CASES AROUND THE COUNTRY WHERE THEY DID TRY TO REGULATE THE CONTENT MORE THAN THAT.
AND THEY RAN INTO TROUBLE, BUT IT WOULDN'T BE THE PLANNING COMMISSION.
I NOTICED IN THE DEPICTION OF THE THINGS THAT ARE CONSIDERED NONCOMMERCIAL, IS THERE CONSIDERATION FOR POTENTIALLY MORROW, MURALS THAT ARE NOT COMMERCIAL, BUT POLITICAL IN NATURE.
HAVE YOU SEEN THAT IN OTHER TOWNSHIPS? UM, POLIT IF IT'S PURELY POLITICAL, IT'S NOT COMMERCIAL.
SO THAT'S A WHOLE OTHER CAN OF WORMS BY THE WAY, BECAUSE OUR POLITICAL, THE POLITICAL PORTION OF THE SIGN ORDINANCE, UM, IS PROBABLY NOT VALID.
WE HAVE GONE AROUND AND AROUND WITH THAT TOO, OVER THE YEARS.
UM, WELL, SHORT, SHORT EXPLANATION TO THAT WITH RESPECT TO POLITICAL SIGNAGE, UM, THE U S SUPREME COURT RULED ABOUT FIVE YEARS AGO THAT YOU HAVE, IF YOU HAVE SIGNS, UH, THAT ARE NON-COMMERCIAL SIGNS, YOU HAVE TO TREAT THEM ALL THE SAME.
SO, UM, LIKE, LIKE MOST ORDINANCES, UPPER PROVIDENCE, LIKE MOST PLACES HAVE THINGS THAT SAY, IF YOU PUT UP A POLITICAL SIGN, YOU HAVE TO TAKE IT DOWN TO WITHIN THREE DAYS OF THE ELECTION, RIGHT.
AND THEN, BUT THEN ANOTHER SIGN FOR A GARAGE SALE HAS TO BE, IT HAS TO BE TAKEN DOWN THE DAY AFTER THE SALE.
AND THEN ANOTHER TYPE OF SIGN MIGHT BE ABLE TO STAY UP FOR A MONTH.
IF YOU HAVE TO TREAT THEM ALL THE SAME, THEN WHICH ONE DO YOU CHOOSE TO BE THE SAME FOR EVERYBODY? AND EVERYBODY'S WRESTLING WITH THIS EVER SINCE THE CASE CAME OUT, IT WAS OUT OF ARIZONA AND IT'S REALLY, REALLY DIFFICULT.
AND I THINK WE'VE LARGELY PUNTED ON IT AS I CALL IT AS MOST PLACES HAVE.
THEY'RE WAITING TO GET CHALLENGED, PUT IT IN CONTEXT TO ADDRESS IT AT THAT TIME.
SO THE POLITICAL SIGNS, UM, ARE ALSO NONCOMMERCIAL.
I SUPPOSE, IF A PERSON WANTED TO PAINT A MURAL OF A POLITICAL FIGURE, THEY COULD DO THAT BECAUSE WE WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO JUDGE THE, BUT THEN YOU'RE GETTING INTO THE ARTISTIC EXPRESSION.
I, AND THE ONLY REASON I ASK IS BECAUSE WE LAY OUT A FEW DETAILS OF WHAT NON COMMERCIAL HAS TO ABIDE BY.
AND I JUST DIDN'T KNOW IF THAT WAS PART OF THE DISCUSSION AS WELL.
[00:10:01]
SOMEONE IN A YEAR, RIGHT.WELL THEN IF IT'S A, IF IT'S AN OVERTLY POLITICAL SIGN, THEN WHEN WE CHOOSE TO APPLY OUR POLITICAL SIGN ORDINANCE SUFFERED AS A SEPARATE, OR IF YOU PUT UP A PICTURE OF ABRAHAM LINCOLN, IS THAT DIFFERENT FROM PUTTING UP NEXT YEAR'S CANDIDATE? YOU KNOW, IT'S NEVER EASY.
UM, NUMBER, NUMBER FIVE, THIS, THIS ALSO COMES UP IN A LOT OF PLACES.
THE, A LOT OF ORDINANCES SAY THAT IF YOU GET RELIEF FROM THE ZONING HEARING BOARD, YOU HAVE TO, YOU HAVE TO GET YOUR PERMITS WITHIN SIX MONTHS OF GETTING THE RELIEF OR THE RELIEF GOES AWAY AND YOU HAVE TO START OVER AND GET THE RELIEF ALL OVER AGAIN FROM THE ZONING HEARING BOARD.
AND IN FACT, FOR A LONG TIME, IT WASN'T THAT BIG A DEAL BECAUSE THERE WAS A COURT CASE THAT SAID, WELL, YOU WOULD HAVE TO GRANT THE RELIEF THE SECOND TIME.
IF YOU GRANTED IT THE FIRST TIME, BECAUSE YOU'D BE BOUND BY YOUR PRIOR RULING.
SO THIS IS ALL A BUNCH OF NONSENSE.
AND THEN ANOTHER CASE CAME OUT THAT SAID, NO, YOU, YOU CAN START OVER THE SECOND TIME AND TAKE IT FROM THE START.
IS THERE THE FIRST TIME NEVER HAPPENED? AND THAT, THAT THEN CREATED A HUGE HEADACHE FOR APPLICANTS.
SO THE BIGGEST PROBLEM THAT MOST PEOPLE HAVE WITH IT, AND WHICH I HAD WITH IT IS IF YOU HAVE A SIX MONTH RULE, IT SHOULD BE MEASURED FROM IT.
SHOULDN'T BE MEASURED FROM WHEN YOU GET A VARIANCE.
IF YOU STILL HAVE TO GO THROUGH LAND DEVELOPMENT, BECAUSE THE LAND DEVELOPMENT PROCESS CAN TAKE A LONG TIME.
AND SOMETIMES IT SH IT COULD EVEN BE A KIND OF A COURT APPEAL IN LATE.
YOUR LAND DEVELOPMENT MIGHT GO ON FOR A COUPLE OF YEARS.
SO IT REALLY SHOULD BE MEASURED BY THE SIX MONTHS TO DO SOMETHING SHOULDN'T BE MEASURED FROM WHEN YOU FIRST GOT THE VARIANCE, IF YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE THE TIME LIMIT AT ALL.
SO THIS IS, UM, TRYING TO ADDRESS THAT BY SAYING THAT, UM, BUT YOU DO HAVE TO INITIATE LAND DEVELOPMENT WITHIN THREE MONTHS OF GETTING THE RELIEF SO THAT YOU CAN'T JUST SIT ON IT FOREVER.
IT TRIES TO ACCOMPLISH THE SAME THING A DIFFERENT WAY.
SO YOU HAVE TO AT LEAST GET STARTED ON YOUR LAND DEVELOPMENT WITHIN THREE MONTHS, WHICH IS EVEN TIGHTER THAN THE SIX MONTHS.
SO YOU HAVE TO KEEP ROLLING WITH THE PROCESS, BUT AS LONG AS YOU'RE IN LAND DEVELOPMENT, THE CLOCK ISN'T RUNNING AGAINST YOU WHILE YOU'RE IN THE MIDDLE OF THE LAND DEVELOPMENT.
UM, AND THEN, UM, THEN YOU HAVE THE SIX MONTHS FROM AFTER THE END OF THE LAND DEVELOPMENT PROCESS TO ALL YOUR PERMITS.
AND WHAT'S THE PURPOSE OF THAT, JOE? UM, THE PURPOSE IS THAT YOU NOT HAVE A CHANGE IN CIRCUIT IF, UH, IF THERE'S A CHANGE IN CIRCUMSTANCES, UM, IF YOU LET PEOPLE WAIT FOREVER AFTER GETTING THE ZONING RELEASE CIRCUMSTANCES MIGHT CHANGE, AND MAYBE UNDER THE NEW CIRCUMSTANCES, YOU WOULDN'T HAVE GRANTED THE RELIEF THAT YOU GRANTED.
THAT'S THE THEORETICAL UNDERPINNING OF IT.
ALTHOUGH FROM A PRACTICAL STANDPOINT, ECONOMICALLY, WE ALL KNOW THE REAL ESTATE MARKET, EVEN THOUGH EVERYBODY THINKS IT'S PRETTY, EVEN UP STEADY, IT DOES THE SAME THING.
LIKE THE STOCK MARKET ONLY, IT'S NOT AS OBVIOUS.
SO THAT KIND OF PUTS ANYBODY THAT GETS A PERMIT OR, OR APPROVAL OR THE ZONING TO MOVE FORWARD WHEN IT MAY NOT BE FAVORABLE.
SO MAYBE THAT'S ALL RIGHT, WELL THEN, AND THEN ALSO THEY CAN COME BACK AND THEY CAN STILL GET AN EXTENDED, BUT AS IT, AS IT STANDS, NOW, IT'S A HARD SIX MONTHS FROM GETTING THE RELIEF.
AND WE HAD ONE PENDING APPLICATION WHERE THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED.
THEY GOT, THEY WENT TO THE ZONING HEARING BOARD TO BACK-TO-BACK YEARS AND GOT IT CONTINUED, BUT THEY'RE GOING TO, THEY WOULD HAVE TO COME BACK AGAIN.
YOU KNOW, IT WAS, THEY'RE TIED UP WITH SOME LAND DEVELOPMENT STUFF.
SO IT'S MORE, JUST A PRACTICAL WAY OF DEALING WITH THAT.
SOME PLACES JUST SAY, IT'S ALWAYS CON CAN BE EXTENDED BY THE ZONING OFFICER, BUT THEN THAT CAN BE CHALLENGED BECAUSE, UM, IF THE ZONING HEARING BOARD AND INCLUDED IT AS A PART OF THEIR ORDER, THEN ONLY THEY WOULD HAVE THE JURISDICTION TO CHANGE THEIR ORDER.
SO THAT, THAT, THAT, UM, THE NUMBER SIX THAT WAS DRIVEN BY, UM, THE BASICALLY BY IDA, UM, ALL THE PEOPLE WHO WERE, WHO MAY CHOOSE TO MO YOU KNOW, LARGE NUMBER OF THOSE HOUSES THAT WERE FLOODED ARE BEING PURCHASED THROUGH THE BUYOUT PROGRAM, BUT FOR ANYBODY WHO'S NOT, AND WHO WANTS TO REBUILD, UM, THEY NOW HAVE TO, YOU KNOW, THEY HAVE TO BE ELEVATED OUT OF THE FLOOD PLAIN.
AND THIS BASICALLY IS SAYING THAT HOWEVER MUCH THEY HAVE TO ELEVATE THE HOME FROM ITS PREVIOUS ELEVATION.
THAT DIFFERENCE IN HEIGHT DOESN'T COUNT TOWARDS THE HEIGHT LIMIT THAT APPLIES TO THE OTHERWISE EVERY SINGLE PERSON WHO WANTED TO BUILD A COMING OUT OF THE FLOODPLAIN WOULD HAVE TO COME IN FOR A VARIANCE.
THAT WOULD ALMOST CERTAINLY BE GRANTED.
[00:15:01]
CASE COME UP, UM, AT THE ZONING HEARING BOARD, IT WAS FOR 1 78 WALNUT AND 180 WALNUT, TWO SIDES OF A TWIN OWNED BY THE SAME FAMILIES.UM, THEY HAD TO GO THROUGH THAT PROCESS BECAUSE THEY WERE AT, I THINK 35.9 FEET OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT.
AND IT WAS JUST LETTER OF THE LAW.
THEY HAVE TO, BECAUSE WE'RE MAKING THEM ELEVATE.
THEY HAD TO GO UP WITH THE DEFINITION, PUT THEM AT 35.
SO IT REALLY IS, IT THAT'S JUST A FLAW IN THE ORDINANCE.
AND SOMETIMES YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT THE LEFT HAND AND THE RIGHT HAND ARE DOING TOGETHER.
AND THAT'S JUST ONE OF THOSE CASES.
UM, SEVEN HAS TO DO THE ORDINANCE AT NUMBER SEVEN, HAS TO DO WITH THE NEED TO INVOLVE WELL, SEVEN AND EIGHT, BOTH THE NEED TO INVOLVE THE CONSERVATION DISTRICT AND HAVING SOMETHING BACK FROM THEM BEFORE YOU SUBMIT APPLICATIONS FOR, UM, WITHIN STEEP SLOPE AND ALSO ANY WORK IN THE FLOODPLAIN.
UM, THE PRACTICAL PROBLEM THERE IS THAT, UH, IT COULD TAKE FOREVER TO GET STUFF FROM THE CONSERVATION DISTRICT.
AND, YOU KNOW, YOU'RE TRYING TO PROCESS AN APPLICATION.
YOU GET A ZONING HEARING BOARD APPLICATION, YOU'VE GOT 60 DAYS TO SCHEDULE YOUR FIRST HEARING.
AND IF YOU DON'T GET A CONTINUANCE OR AN EXTENSION FROM THE APPLICANT, YOU'RE AT A 60 DAY CLOCK, YOU'RE NOT GOING TO HAVE ANYTHING BACK FROM THE CONSERVATION DISTRICT IN, IN, IN THAT, WITHIN THAT TIMEFRAME.
AND, UM, IT ALSO PUT AN ONUS ON THE APPLICANT TO DO MORE THAN WE THAN JEFF AND I THOUGHT THEY SHOULD DO TO PREPARE THIS IDEA TO AN EXHAUSTIVE SURVEY OF EVERY MUNICIPALITY IN THE COUNTY AND LOOKED AT THEIR ORDINANCES IN THE FLOODPLAIN WITH RESPECT TO THE CONSERVATION DISTRICT.
AND, UM, IT'S KIND OF DOWN THE MIDDLE MANY, I FORGET THE EXACT NUMBER I MADE UP TO JEFF AND HE DIDN'T BRING IT FOR TONIGHT.
I THINK, I THINK ABOUT HALF HAD SOME REQUIREMENT THAT YOU GO TO THE CONSERVATION DISTRICT AND THE OTHER HALF DIDN'T HAVE ANY MENTION OF THE CONSERVATION DISTRICT WHATSOEVER.
SO WE WERE COMFORTABLE, YOU KNOW, REMOVING IT AS A REQUIREMENT, UM, BASED ON THAT, BECAUSE THERE'S NO SPECIFIC REGULATION THAT WE FOUND THAT SAID WE HAD TO SEND IT TO THEM FIRST, I THINK BECAUSE THE DISTRICT IS A CONSERVATION DISTRICT ZONING DISTRICT, IT SORT OF LOOKS OBVIOUS THAT YOU SHOULD SEND IT TO THE CONSERVATION DISTRICT, BUT IT JUST SEEMED LIKE WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE, WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE CRITERIA IN THE FLOOD PLAIN ORDINANCE ABOUT WHAT THEY HAVE TO PROVE IN ORDER TO DO WORK IN THE FLOOD, PLAIN, ALL OF THAT'S PROVABLE, WITHOUT SOMETHING BACK FROM THE CONSERVATION DISTRICT, IT'S NOT LIKE YOU WOULD NEED SOME DATA FROM THE CONSERVATION DISTRICT TO PROVE YOUR CASE.
SO WE SUGGESTED TAKING IT OUT APPLICANTS, GO TO THE ZONING HEARING BOARD BEFORE THEY GO THROUGH THE FULL LAND DEVELOPMENT PROCESS.
THE WAY THIS IS SORT OF STRUCTURED IS IT WOULD MAKE THE, IT WOULD ALMOST BE PREFERABLE FOR THEM TO GO TO THE LAND DEVELOPMENT PROCESS AND GET THEIR VARIANCES OR WHATEVER THEY NEEDED AFTER THE FACT, BECAUSE THEY'RE ALREADY INVOLVED WITH MONTGOMERY COUNTY CONSERVATION DISTRICT.
I PREFER TO GET ALL OF THE, SORT OF THE ZONING HEARING BOARD STUFF'S OUT OF THE WAY FIRST FREE LAND DEVELOPMENT, SO THAT IT'S NOT TIED TO EACH OTHER ANYMORE.
I MEAN, I HAVE NO ENFORCEMENT ABILITY TO MAKE THEM DO THAT, BUT THAT'S ALWAYS WHAT I WILL TELL AN APPLICANT IS, IS GET THAT AS EARLY AS POSSIBLE SO THAT WE CAN GET THAT OUT OF THE WAY AND MOVE TO LAND DEVELOPMENT AND ANY, DEVELOPER'S NOT GOING TO WANT TO DO MONTGOMERY.
YOU KIND OF, YOU KNOW, THE WHOLE, UH, MPDS IN THE VERY BEGINNING BECAUSE SO MANY THINGS CAN CHANGE.
AND THEN YOU'RE JUST GOING BACK TO THE PROCESS AND BACK TO THE PROCESS.
BUT THESE TWO, THEY, THE THING THAT JUST STRUCK ME IS THAT IT WASN'T AN AMENDMENT.
IT'S JUST COMPLETE REMOVAL OF SOMETHING THAT WAS ALREADY PUT IN PLACE OR SOME VALID REASON AT SOME POINT.
SO WHAT IS THE TRADE OFF? WHAT, WHAT RISK IS INVOLVED WITH NOT HAVING THIS? I MEAN, THERE'S PROBABLY SOME TYPE OF PROJECT THAT REALLY SHOULD GO THROUGH THE CONSERVATION DISTRICT OR THOSE USE RARE.
WELL, THE FLOODPLAIN, WHAT YOU'RE ALLOWED TO DO IN THE FLOODPLAIN IS EXTREMELY LIMITED.
ANYWAY, UM, HERE, YOU KNOW, WE WERE TALKING ABOUT THE CONTEXT OF SEEKING TO REBUILD A HOME THAT WAS DAMAGED BY A FLOOD.
OTHER TYPE OF WORK IN THE FLOODPLAIN IS, IS VERY, UM, VERY LIMITED.
AND I CAN'T, I CANNOT THINK OF ONE THAT WOULD REQUIRE THAT.
ALTHOUGH THE ZONING HEARING BOARD COULD IMPOSE IT AS A CONDITION OF APPROVAL THAT THEY HEAR FROM THE CONSERVATION DISTRICT, JUST BECAUSE IT'S NOT IN THIS ORDINANCE, DOESN'T MEAN THAT THEY CAN'T IMPOSE IT AS A CONDITION.
NOW, AS FAR AS IT BEING, YOU KNOW, IS IT, WAS IT INCLUDED IN THE ORDINANCE FOR SOME VALID REASON, POSSIBLY, BUT NOT NECESSARILY BECAUSE A LOT OF THESE ORDINANCES AND FLOODPLAIN ORDINANCES ARE, ARE GREAT EXAMPLE.
THEY'RE, THEY'RE, THEY'RE CIRCULATED AS TEMPLATES.
IT MIGHT'VE BEEN THE CONSERVATION DISTRICT THAT WROTE IT FOR ALL, YOU KNOW, AND THEN THEY CIRCULATE IT AS A TEMPLATE.
BECAUSE WHEN YOU LOOK AT EVERYBODY'S ORDINANCES, IT'S A REMARKABLE HOW SIMILAR THEY LOOK, CERTAIN OF THEM, THE COUNTY DID, THE COUNTY DID A SIGN ORDINANCE
[00:20:01]
THAT YOU SEE IN HALF THE MUNICIPALITY, AS SOON AS YOU GO TO THE FIRST PAGE, LIKE, OH YEAH, THAT COUNTY ONE THAT THEY DID IN THE EIGHTIES, YOU KNOW, AND YOU SEE IT EVERYWHERE.UM, SO SOME OF THE LANGUAGE WAS, MAY HAVE JUST BEEN INCLUDED IN A MASS ADOPTION OF AN ORDINANCE WHERE IT REALLY WASN'T, YOU KNOW, PARSED.
SO MORE SPECIFICALLY SEVEN DOESN'T REFER TO FLOOD PLAIN AT ALL, BUT THAT'S THE ASSUMPTION IS THIS IS REFERENCING THOSE PARTICULAR TO TWO DIFFERENT THINGS.
WE DID SORT OF DRIFT BOARD OF THE FLOOD, PLAIN PART OF IT, WHICH IS NUMBER EIGHT.
UM, THE NUMBER SEVEN, UM, WAS THE SAME THING IN TERMS OF THE, UM, TIMELINE THERE'S CRITERIA IN THE ORDINANCE FOR THE, FOR THE WORK THAT YOU WANT TO DO.
AND IT JUST DID NOT SEEM AT ALL PRACTICAL TO REQUIRE A REPORT FROM, YOU KNOW, YOU DON'T, YOU DON'T TELL IN YOUR ORDINANCE, YOU DON'T TELL AN APPLICANT HOW TO PROVE THEIR CASE AND WHO HAS TO TESTIFY AND WHO THEY HAVE TO BRING.
IF THEY DON'T BRING THE RIGHT PEOPLE IN THE BOARD, DOESN'T LIKE IT, THAT'S TOUGH.
THAT'S THEIR BUSINESS, THAT'S THEIR BUSINESS.
THIS IS, THIS IS THE, WAS THE ONE ODD ATTEMPT TO TELL PEOPLE WHAT THEY HAD TO DO TO PROVE THEIR CASE AND WITH THE TIMELINES THAT ARE INVOLVED, THAT PROBLEMS THAT IT CREATES.
WE JUST WANTED TO SEE IT COME OUT.
AND PART OF IT JUST CREATES A LITTLE BIT OF BUSY WORK FOR THE 1 37 82 THAT'S IN THE STEEP SLOPE ORDINANCE.
WE REQUIRED TO GET A SPECIAL EXCEPTION FOR ANY YARD AREA IN A STEEP SLOPE THAT BECOMES, I MEAN, THAT'S SOMEWHAT PROBLEMATIC AND ADMINISTRATIVE AT THIS POINT ANYWAY, BUT IT, IT REQUIRES THEM TO, FOR NOTHING THAT'S HAPPENING IN THE STEEP SLOPE AREA.
CAUSE THERE'S A WHOLE SEPARATE SECTION IF YOU'RE ACTUALLY MOVING EARTH.
BUT IF YOU'RE JUST HAVING A YARD AREA AND A STEEP SLOPE, YOU HAVE TO GO TO MONTGOMERY COUNTY, YOU HAVE TO GO TO THE CONSERVATION DISTRICT.
AND THEN IF IT'S UNDER AN ACRE, THEY DON'T WANT TO LOOK AT IT ANYWAY.
SO I'M USUALLY SENDING JEN AN EMAIL SAYING, CAN YOU CONFIRM THAT BECAUSE OF THIS PLAN AT THIS AREA, MONTGOMERY COUNTY CONSERVATION DISTRICT, I'M GOING TO LOOK AT IT.
SO THEN SHE'S GOT TO LOOK AT IT AND SEND IT BACK AND FORTH.
AND IT'S, IT'S SORT OF JUST AN ADMINISTRATIVE NIGHTMARE.
I MEAN, IT'S JUST SOMETHING THAT WE DON'T NEED TO BE DOING THAT WHEN WE ALL THE PROCESS, WHEN IT'S A LARGER DEVELOPMENT, IT'S CAUGHT THROUGH MONTGOMERY COUNTY CONSERVATION, THERE'S REASON TO LOOK AT IT ANYWAY OR JENSEN.
WE'RE LOOKING AT IT WHEN, WHEN THE ENGINEERING FIRM LOOKS AT IT.
AND THEN IT'S ELIMINATING GOING TO THE COUNTRY.
IT'S ELIMINATING GOING TO THE CONSERVATION DISTRICT BEFORE YOU GET YOUR ZONING HEARING BOARD APPROVAL.
THE ZONING HEARING BOARD HAD 60 DAYS AND MIKE, I ALREADY KIND OF IN THE CONSERVATION DISTRICT TAKES MUCH MORE THAN 60 DAYS.
THERE'S LAND DEVELOPMENT INVOLVED.
THEY'RE GOING TO BE THROUGH THAT PROCESS OVER A LONG PERIOD OF TIME AGAINST, AND ALSO TO CLARIFY, WE'RE NOT TAKING AWAY CONSERVATION DISTRICT APPROVAL, THEY DON'T APPROVE IT.
IT'S NOT LIKE WE'RE SUDDENLY DECIDING YOU DON'T HAVE DECIDED ANYMORE.
IF YOU, YOU JUST GOT INPUT FROM THEM, IT'S STREAMLINED.
SOUNDS LIKE IT STREAMLINES THE PROCESS A LITTLE BIT, TAKE SOME WORDING OUT THAT MAYBE IS NOT REALLY NECESSARY.
SO THAT'S SIX, SEVEN AND EIGHT, RIGHT? YEP.
AND THAT'S THAT THE REST ARE JUST A STANDARD LEGAL STUFF FOR THE ORDINANCE.
SO WHAT DO WE DO HERE? WHAT DO WE DO THIS JEFFER, JOE? UM, YOU CAN, IF YOU WANT TO THINK ABOUT IT, YOU KNOW, WITH IT'S A CLEANUP THING, THERE'S NO TIME.
UM, YOU KNOW, WE JUST, I JUST TALKED FOR 25 MINUTES ABOUT, UM, IF YOU WANT TO THINK ABOUT IT AND COME BACK NEXT MONTH, THAT'S FINE.
WELL, I THINK WE ALSO, THERE'S MAYBE A FEW OTHER THINGS WE WANT TO REFINE THAT.
AND WHEN, ONCE WE TALK ABOUT THE RIPARIAN BUFFER, THAT MIGHT SORT OF ADD IT INTO THIS, IF YOU'RE COMFORTABLE WITH WHERE IT IS NOW, WHAT WE'LL PROBABLY DO IS FINISH UP SOME OTHER ADMINISTRATIVE STUFF.
I KNOW THERE'S A FEW, COUPLE OF LITTLE THINGS THAT I NOTICED TODAY WHEN I WAS DIGGING AROUND THE ORDINANCE.
AND IT'S LIKE, WHY AM YOU IS MISSING FROM THE DISTRICT LIST? SOMETHING INANE LIKE THAT, THAT WE JUST HAVE TO PUT IN THERE.
WE'RE GOING TO PUT THAT IN THERE.
AND THEN ONCE WE'LL AT THAT POINT, WE'LL PROBABLY TAKE IT TO THE SUPERVISORS AS TO HAVE ADVERTISED.
WE'LL RUN THROUGH THE WHAT'S THE FORMAL LOCKED ORDINANCE AT THAT POINT.
AND THEN YOU CAN MAKE YOUR RECOMMENDATION BASED ON THAT.
SO AT THIS POINT, WE'RE JUST GETTING FAMILIAR WITH THIS.
WE CAN TAKE SOME TIME TO DIGEST IT, ASK QUESTIONS.
AND THEN, UH, AND THEN YOU'LL, IT'S GOING TO COME BACK AROUND IN THE PROCESS AT SOME POINT.
[00:25:01]
SO NO ACTIONS ON THAT AT THIS POINT, WE'LL JUST KIND OF DIGEST ALL THAT AND THE, YEAH.AND IF THERE'S OTHER THINGS THAT YOU'VE SEEN IN THE ORDINANCE AS PLANNING COMMISSION MEMBERS THAT SEEM ODD TO YOU AND YOU, OR THINGS THAT HAVE STUCK OUT TO YOU, OR LIKE, WHY IS THIS IN THERE? WHY, YOU KNOW, WHAT, IF THIS STREAMLINES THE PROCESS OR CAN WE CLEAN THIS UP? CERTAINLY POINT THOSE THINGS OUT TO ME.
I KIND OF KEEP A RUNNING FILE OF THAT ALL THE TIME.
AND THEN WHEN IT GETS TO BE, YOU KNOW, WHEN WE GET TO HAVE SOMETHING LIKE WHAT SPURRED THIS ONE ON WAS THE BUILDING HEIGHT.
AND ONCE WE SORT OF STARTED WITH THE BUILDING HEIGHT, WE'RE LIKE, OKAY, WHAT ELSE DO WE WANT TO ADD IN THERE? I MEAN, IF YOU REMEMBER THE LAST ONE, IT WAS 20, 30 PAGES LONG, BUT WE WAITED A COUPLE OF YEARS, BUT THEN, AND THIS ONE WE'RE, WE'RE TRYING TO MOVE FORWARD A LITTLE BIT FASTER.
UM, IN TERMS OF RIPARIAN BUFFERS, I, THE PACKET I SENT ALONG IS JUST SORT OF SOME EXAMPLES.
UM, THERE'S NOT TH THERE'S SOME SPECIFIC LANGUAGE IN HERE.
IT'S A WIDE VARIETY OF RIPARIAN BUFFER TYPES.
AND IF YOU'RE SORT OF READ THE, THE HEADACHE, THE HEADER OF EACH OF THEM, IT SORT OF EXPLAINS WHAT MUNICIPALITIES, THE AUTHOR OF IT, WHICH IS I THINK IT'S CHESTER COUNTY PLANNING COMMISSION AND, UH, NATURAL RESOURCE PROTECTION, UM, WHAT THEY TEND TO THINK IT APPLIES TO, UM, WHAT WE HAVE TO DO WITH WALKING A FINE, WE HAVE TO HAVE TO WALK A FINE LINE HERE BECAUSE WE CERTAINLY WANT TO PROTECT THE EXISTING RIPARIAN BUFFERS, BUT WE DON'T WANT TO PUT TOO MUCH OF AN ONUS ON EXISTING HOMEOWNERS.
SO IF, IF AIG HAS AN INTERMITTENT CREEK THAT RUNS THROUGH HIS BACKYARD, WE DON'T WANT TO SUDDENLY HAVE TO MAKE HIM PLANT SEVEN TREES AND, AND DO SOME STREAM BANK RESTORATION JUST BECAUSE HE'S GOT A NICE LITTLE CREEK RUNNING BACK THERE.
UM, BUT WE DO WANT TO HAVE SOMETHING IN PLACE TO WHERE WE LOOK AT IT AND SAY, YOU KNOW, AS YOU'RE DOING SOME LAND DEVELOPMENT, AS YOU'RE DOING SOME OTHER THINGS, IF YOU CAN RESTORE SOME STREAM BANK, IF YOU CAN PLANT SOME TREES AND BUFFER OUT SOME OF THESE, THESE STREAM BANKS, IT WOULD BE BENEFICIAL FOR EVERYBODY.
SO WHAT WE'RE SORT OF LOOKING TO DO IS WALK THAT FINE LINE IN, IN THIS GROUPING.
AND JEN CAN TALK MORE ABOUT SOME MORE SPECIFIC THINGS.
I THINK THAT NUMBER, THERE'S LITTLE PIECES OF EACH ONE, I SORT OF WANT TO PULL OUT IF YOU'RE COMFORTABLE MOVING FORWARD WITH THIS.
I WAS THINKING EXAMPLE NUMBER FIVE WAS PROBABLY THE MOST APPROPRIATE FOR UPPER PROVIDENCE.
I WOULD PROBABLY WANT TO PAIR IT DOWN A LITTLE BIT.
IT'S, IT'S, IT'S A LITTLE LENGTHY FOR WHAT WE WANT TO DO, BUT IT'S, UH, YOU KNOW, IT TENDS TO BE FOR HIGHER DENSITY, SUBURBAN LANDSCAPES.
AGAIN, MAYBE WE'RE NOT CONSIDERED HIGHER DENSITY SINCE WE'RE MOSTLY HALF ACRE LOTS, BUT I THINK IT'S BETTER TO START WITH THAT AND PULL IT BACK A LITTLE BIT THAN IT IS TO TAKE ONE OF THE MORE RURAL AND, AND, UH, LOW DENSITY EXAMPLES IN THERE AND TRY TO PUT MORE INTO IT.
SO THE PURPOSE OF THE CHEF, YOU'VE TAKEN FIVE DIFFERENT EXAMPLES FROM OTHER TOWNSHIPS.
AND THIS IS STUFF THAT THEY'VE ADOPTED.
AND YOU'RE SAYING THAT WE WANT TO UPGRADE OR, UH, UH, CHANGE THE LANGUAGE IN OUR CURRENT.
WELL, RIGHT NOW, THERE, THERE IS NO RIPARIAN BUFFER REQUIREMENT, BUT THESE ARE EXAMPLES THAT IF THE PLANNING COMMISSION WANTS TO MOVE FORWARD WITH LOOKING INTO REPAIRING AND BUFFERS AND FROM A TOWNSHIP STAFF STANDPOINT, FROM THE ENGINEER'S STANDPOINT, IT IS SOMETHING THAT I WOULD RECOMMEND.
BUT AGAIN, THE PLANNING COMMISSION CAN MAKE THAT CALL.
UM, YOU KNOW, THESE ARE JUST EXAMPLES OF THE RANGE OF, OF BUFFER TYPE ORDINANCES YOU CAN PUT IN THERE.
AND YOU WOULD LIKE US TO SEE WHICH ONE WE THINK FITS BEST IN.
WELL, I, I'M NOT, I DON'T THINK YOU HAVE TO GIVE ME EXAMPLES, SAY, OH, THIS PART OF FIVE AND THIS PART OF THREE IN THIS PART OF FOUR, BUT HOW COMFORTABLE YOU ARE MOVING FORWARD WITH LOOKING AT IT.
AND IF IT'S SOMETHING YOU FEEL YOU WOULD LIKE TO DO, UH, AND WE CAN COME UP WITH A RANGE OF IT AFTER WE SORT OF PUT THE FIRST LANGUAGE TOGETHER, I'M JUST TRYING TO GIVE YOU THIS AS A LITTLE BIT OF EDUCATION ABOUT IT, BECAUSE I COULD JUST DROP ONE OREGON'S IN YOUR LAP AND SAY, OKAY, HERE'S WHAT WE'RE GOING TO ADOPT.
AND YOU DON'T HAVE THE, NOBODY WOULD REALLY HAVE THE KNOWLEDGE TO SAY, WELL, OKAY, CAN IT BE LESS? CAN IT BE MORE, YOU KNOW, WHAT CAN WE DO? WHAT DOES THIS APPLY TO OTHER AREAS? AND I THINK THIS NOTEBOOK OR THIS BOOK, UM, HELPS OUT WITH THAT A LITTLE BIT.
SO YOU WOULD LIKE US TO KIND OF GO THROUGH THESE AND LIKE YOU SAY, UH, JUST OPEN UP ANY QUESTIONS OR COMMENTS THAT WE MIGHT HAVE TO SAY, HEY, THIS LOOKS REALLY GOOD, OR, YEAH.
AND THIS IS SOMETHING WE CAN REVISIT NEXT MONTH.
AND AS MUCH AS I WOULD LIKE TO GET THIS IN THE, IN THE CLEANUP ORDINANCE, IT MAY NOT, IT MAY JUST BE TOO TECHNICAL FOR THAT.
AND MAYBE SOMETHING WE JUST SORT OF HAVE TO MOVE FORWARD WITH FOR SEPARATE YET, GENERALLY AT THE SAME TIME.
SO, BUT JEN ALSO HAS SOME COMMENTS AND QUESTIONS OR COMMENTS ABOUT IT BASED ON THE
SO I'LL LET HER FILL YOU IN, AND THIS COULD GET LENGTHY.
SO STOP ME IF IT'S TOO TECHNICAL OR TOO MUCH FOR TONIGHT.
SO INTRODUCTION, RIPARIAN BUFFER
[00:30:01]
IS ALONG A WATERCOURSE, INTERMITTENT WATERCOURSE OR PERMANENT STREAM.YOU HAVE THE RIPARIAN BUFFER CORRIDOR ISSUE.
AND THEN THE SEPARATE ISSUE, WHICH IS THE MS FOUR, WHICH IS OVER HERE, YOU DON'T HAVE A CHOICE OF THE
SO WE'RE GOING TO TALK ABOUT THAT SECOND.
SO RIPARIAN BUFFER, YOU CAN, UM, THESE SAMPLE ORDINANCES THAT ARE IN HERE, THERE ARE DEFINITELY SOME ORDINANCES IN PENNSYLVANIA, WHICH ARE MUCH MORE STRINGENT ALMOST WELL.
ONE OF THEM IS A BUFFER REPAIRING BUFFER OVERLAY.
IT'S ACTUALLY IN THE ZONING ORDINANCE.
IT SPECIFIES, UM, DISTANCE ON EITHER SIDE OF THE CREEK BED ZONES.
SOME OF THEM HAVE THREE ZONES.
SOME OF THEM HAVE TWO ZONES AND YOU'RE DOING PROHIBITED USES DEPENDING ON WHICH ZONE YOU'RE IN ALLOWABLE USES.
SO IF THEY WERE GOING TO MODIFY ANY OF THAT, IT WOULD BE A VARIANCE, NOT ONLY THAT, BUT YOU WOULD HAVE SPECIFIC PLANTING DENSITIES.
SO I'M GOING TO, I'M GOING TO PICK ON, UM, TOTAL, FULLY TONIGHT.
BECAUSE YOU'RE FAMILIAR WITH THAT PROJECT AND THAT HAS A WATERCOURSE THROUGH IT.
SO IN THAT PROJECT, THEY HAVE THE CLUSTER DEVELOPMENT.
THEY'RE UPLAND, THEY'RE PRESERVING THE ENTIRE, I'M GOING TO CALL IT REPAIRING, UM, CORRIDOR AROUND THE STREAM.
THEY'RE ALREADY DOING THAT, RIGHT.
THEY DIDN'T COME IN AND PUT THE HOUSES RIGHT UP AGAINST THE SWALE THAT'S IN THERE.
THEY ARE BUILDING A TRAIL, UM, BEHIND SOME PROPERTIES, WHICH IS NICE.
AND THAT'S ACTUALLY ONE OF THE USES, WHICH IS TYPICALLY ALLOWABLE IN THAT AREA.
UM, NOT NECESSARILY IMPERVIOUS, WHICH I KNOW YOU LIKE THE ASPHALT TRAILS WHEN YOU PUT THE TRAIL.
AND, UM, BUT THAT WOULD BE AN OPTION THAT YOU WOULD BE ABLE TO ALLOW.
AND, UM, DEPENDING ON WHICH TIER OF DISTANCE YOU ARE FROM THE CREEK.
SO THEY'RE DOING A REALLY NICE JOB.
PUTTING THIS IN THE ORDINANCE WOULD REALLY ALLOW YOU TO CHALLENGE AND HAVE MORE CONTROL OVER SOMEONE ELSE WHO ISN'T RIGHT.
SOMEBODY WHO WANTS TO COME IN, THEY'RE GOING TO GRADE.
YOU DON'T HAVE A FLOOD PLAIN NECESSARILY BECAUSE AN INTERMITTENT WATERCOURSE, ISN'T A FLOWING STREAM ALL THE TIME.
IT'S NOT GOING TO HAVE A FLOOD PLAIN IN THE AREAS OF YOUR MUNICIPALITY THAT DO HAVE A FLOOD, PLAIN, THE RIPARIAN CORRIDORS ALREADY PART OF THAT, RIGHT.
SO YOU TAKE OUT IN YOUR NATURAL RESOURCE PRESERVATION, YOU'RE ALREADY NETTING OUT FLOOD PLAIN FOR DENSITY OF A LARGE LAND DEVELOPMENT.
SO THIS, THE ADDING OF THE RIPARIAN BUFFER IN THOSE SITUATIONS WOULD HAVE NO IMPACT BECAUSE IT'S ALREADY OVERLAPPING THE FLOODPLAIN.
SO IT'S NOT HURTING THE DEVELOPER.
AS FAR AS THE DENSITY ISSUE ON THOSE SITES.
UM, REPAIRING BUFFERS ARE FOR WATER QUALITY.
THAT'S, THAT'S THE GIST BEHIND THEM.
YOU GET THE LARGE VEGETATION THAT'S IN THERE, YOU'RE SHADING THE STREAM, YOU'RE TOOLING, THE WATER.
THAT'S ALWAYS A CONCERN WITH THE CONSERVATION DISTRICT.
UM, IT'S JUST SOMETHING GOOD TO HAVE.
SO NOW I'M GOING TO KIND OF TRANSITION INTO MSP.
YOU, WHAT YOU, THE WAY I'M HEARING, WHAT YOU'RE SAYING, THAT'S NEW D MOST OF WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT IS NEW DEVELOPMENTS.
WHAT ABOUT EXISTING DEVELOPED AS THIS ORDINANCE GOING TO APPLY TO ANYBODY THAT'S CURRENTLY, ALREADY DONE THAT THE DEVELOPMENTS THERE, THE HOUSE HOUSES THERE, THERE WAS NOTHING BEFORE, DID THEY HAVE TO GET THEIR BUFFERS UPGRADED? SO MOST OF THE EXAMPLES IN HERE, NO, IT WOULD BE FOR, FOR NEW DEVELOPMENT.
UM, BUT THERE ARE OPPORTUNITIES YOU COULD TAKE.
UM, TYPICALLY IT'S NOT THOUGH TYPICALLY, UM, LIKE AIG PROPERTY, YOU KNOW, IF HE HAD A STREAM THROUGH IT RIGHT NOW, NOTHING WOULD HAPPEN TO HIM.
HE'S NOT GOING TO GO OUT AND HAVE TO PLANT SEVEN TREES TOMORROW BECAUSE ALL OF A SUDDEN WE ESTABLISHED A RIPARIAN CORRIDOR AROUND HIS PROPERTY.
UM, YOU WOULDN'T EVEN REALLY ESTABLISH THAT UNTIL YOU HAD AN OPPORTUNITY TO PUT IT IN A CONSERVATION EASEMENT LATER ON, WHICH YOU WOULD NEVER SEE THAT UNTIL IT CAME IN FOR LAND DEVELOPMENT.
SO IT WOULD REALLY BE TIED WITH FUTURE.
SO BASICALLY THE, THIS ORDINANCE THAT WE WANT TO TRY TO ADOPT WOULD BE FOR NEW TO THEM.
JEFF, YOU HAVE NO INTENTION OF, WELL, TWO EXISTING.
UM, THAT'S ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I THINK WE, I DON'T THINK, YOU KNOW, I'M LOOKING AT THEM.
I DON'T THINK WE WANT TO GO TO THE LEVEL OF HAVING THIS AS A, AS YOU KNOW, AS, AS AN OVERLAY, LIKE THE FLOODPLAIN ORDINANCE, BUT I WOULD LIKE TO AFFORD SOME PROTECTION TO STREAMS AND CREEKS FROM BEING CLEAR-CUT ON INDIVIDUAL PROPERTIES.
I MEAN, THAT, THAT'S, THAT'S SOMETHING I, I PERSONALLY, I THINK THAT'S, I WOULD RECOMMEND THAT.
I THINK THAT THAT'S IMPORTANT AS MUCH AS IT IS TO PROTECT FOR NEW DEVELOPMENT IS CERTAINLY THE PRIORITY HERE ALSO TOO.
YOU KNOW, WE DON'T WANT A LAND OWNER TO BE ABLE TO, TO GO IN AND, AND TAKE EVERYTHING OUT BECAUSE THEN THE NEXT HOUSE DOWN, IF THEY'RE DOING WHAT THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO BE DOING, UH, YOU KNOW, IF THEY'RE PROTECTING THE STREAM BANK AND THEY'RE HAVING, YOU KNOW, THEY'VE ENHANCED
[00:35:01]
THEIR RIPARIAN BUFFER, IT'S JUST BEING WASTED BY THE HOUSE NEXT TO THEM.WELL, THAT'S MY CONCERN WHEN I'M THINKING OF WHAT YOU JUST TALKING WHEN SHE'S TALKING ABOUT, I'M THINKING ABOUT, OKAY, YOU HAVE, YOU KNOW, BUT BUTTED UP AGAINST EACH OTHER DIFFERENT DEVELOPMENTS.
ONE IS, IS HIS GRANDFATHER ARE OLDER AND THIS ONE'S NEW.
AND YOU'RE REQUIRING THESE PEOPLE TO DO ALL THIS WORK, TO MAKE THE BUBBLE, THE ENTIRE BOOK OF THEM.
I WAS REFERRING TO IT MORE IN THAT.
WE'RE NOT GOING TO GO AND SAY RIGHT NOW YOU HAVE TO PLANT YOUR SEVEN TREES, BUT THERE SHOULD BE A CAVEAT IN IT FOR THE CLEAR CUTTING KIND OF WHAT'S TO BE GOING IN THERE AND CUTTING DOWN.
WELL, PROHIBITING SOMETHING IS A LOT EASIER TO ENFORCE TELLING SOMEBODY THAT THEY CAN'T MESS AROUND WITH.
WHAT'S THERE'S A LOT DIFFERENT FROM SELLING THEM.
THEY HAVE TO ADD TO WHAT'S THERE.
YOU W WHEN YOU'RE, IF YOU'RE, WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT, UM, THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN AN OLD NEIGHBORHOOD AND A NEW NEIGHBORHOOD, THERE ARE JUST UNDENIABLE DIFFERENCES BECAUSE THE NEW NEIGHBORHOOD HAS TO COMPLY WITH THE SOURDOUGH.
I MEAN, YOU CAN, YOU, YOU, YOU CAN TELL A DEVELOPER RIGHT DOWN TO WHAT KIND OF TREE IT IS THAT THEY HAVE TO PLANT, BUT YOU CAN'T TELL ME WHAT I HAVE TO GO PLANT IN MY YARD, BECAUSE DOES THIS ALSO REFER TO EXAMPLE, FOUR TALKS ABOUT LAND USES? SO I'M THINKING SOMEONE HAS PROPERTY.
IT'S BEEN HERE FOR DECADES, NO CHANGE.
AND THEN THEY SELL NEW OWNER WANTS TO PUT A JUNKYARD, OR LIKE THAT WAS ONE EXAMPLE IN THERE, OR FEEDLOT, ET CETERA, LIKE THAT LAND USE ITSELF, YOU CHANGE AND USE IS ALWAYS A TRIGGER.
AND AGAIN, I'M NOT, WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO DO IS IN CONJUNCTION WITH THIS AND IN CONJUNCTION WITH THE ENVIRONMENTAL ACTION COMMITTEE IS, OR WHATEVER, I DON'T EAC.
I DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT IT STANDS FOR HONESTLY, UM, WITH THE EAC IS TO COME UP WITH SOMETHING WE CAN GET TO HOMEOWNERS THAT LIVE ON A STREAM BANK, SAY, HERE'S HOW YOU CAN ENHANCE YOUR RIGHT PERRY AND BUFFER NOT TO REQUIRE IT, BUT TO SAY, HERE'S WHAT YOU CAN DO THAT WOULD ENHANCE IT SO THAT WHEN YOU KNOW, THEY'RE DOING SOMETHING AND AT THE, YOU KNOW, IF THE POINT WHERE THEY'RE STARTING TO TAKE TREES DOWN IS WHEN MAYBE IF WE CAN GO IN AND STOP THEM AND SAY, HERE'S, YOU KNOW WHAT YOU NEED TO KEEP, BUT WHAT YOU HAVE IS FINE, BUT IF YOU WANT TO ENHANCE IT, THAT'S GREAT.
IF YOU WANT TO TAKE IT DOWN, THAT'S WHERE WE RUN INTO SOME ISSUES.
BUT ALL I'M SAYING IS THOUGH, I THINK THAT IS, IS THIS WHATEVER ONE OF THESE SCENARIOS WE THINK IS THE BEST ADOPTION.
I THINK THERE HAS TO BE SOME PROTECTION AGAINST THE BELDEN.
IF IT'S OLDER OR IT'S ALREADY IN PLACE, IT HAS TO BE SOMETHING THAT MENTIONS THAT MAYBE YOU CAN'T MAKE THEM UNDERSTAND THAT, BUT YOU CAN CERTAINLY GIVE RECOMMENDATIONS OR CERTAINLY GIVE SOME, SOME, UH, YOU KNOW, HEY, HERE'S WHAT WE THINK YOU SHOULD DO TO REPAIR THAT BANK.
AND SOME PEOPLE ARE GOING TO SAY TO HECK WITH IT, AND I DON'T CARE.
I MEAN, THAT'S JUST THE WAY IT IS, BUT I THINK AT LEAST IT'S IN THERE THAT IT'S GOTTA BE SOMETHING THAT IS PART OF WHATEVER THE NEW DEVELOPMENT IS.
THERE HAS TO BE SOME REFERENCE TO THE OLD YES.
IF YOU DO CALL IT TO THEIR ATTENTION, THEY GO, OH YEAH, I AGREE.
SO I'M GOING TO KIND OF SPIRAL INTO MS. FOUR.
YOU HAVE AN MS. FOUR PROGRAM HERE, SO THAT AGAIN IS ALSO WATER QUALITY.
IT OVERLAPS IN THE RIPARIAN CORRIDOR, ALTHOUGH YOU'RE NOT GETTING ANY CREDIT PER SE FOR THAT.
BUT WHAT YOU DO GET CREDIT FOR IN THE MSR PROGRAM IS STREAM BANK RESTORATION.
SO THAT IS THE MUNICIPAL SEPARATE STORM SEWER PROGRAM.
AND ANNUALLY THERE'S REPORTS PUT TOGETHER EVERY FOUR YEARS, YOU HAVE TO ZERO OUT.
SO IN THE PORTION OF YOUR MUNICIPALITY, THAT GOES TOWARDS THE SCHOOL RIVER.
THERE'S NO CONTROL OVER THERE BECAUSE THE SCHUYLKILL RIVER ISN'T IMPAIRED, BUT THE PERKIOMEN CREEK WATERSHED IS IMPAIRED.
SO IT'S DONNIE BROOK, A SCHOOLHOUSE RUN.
AND THERE'S A THIRD ONE, WHICH IS ESCAPING ME RIGHT NOW.
BUT ANYBODY WITHIN THOSE DRAINAGE AREAS, THEY'RE PART OF YOUR MOS FOR, SO WHEN NEW DEVELOPMENT COMES IN, OH, AND THAT IMPAIRMENT IS SEDIMENT, WHICH IS WHY STREAM BANK RESTORATION IS IMPORTANT.
AND NOW I'M GOING TO MENTION THE WB HOMES DEVELOPMENT ON GREENWOOD HAVE NOT STERLY ONE DOWN, OR IF IT'S 3 57 GREENWOOD MEADOW, OKAY.
UM, THAT ONE, IT WAS TIED TO A STORMWATER WAIVER.
THEY WEREN'T ABLE TO GET THE 50 YEAR, UM, POST DEVELOPMENT DOWN TO THE TWO YEAR PRE-DEVELOPMENT, WHICH IS WHAT YOUR PEAK FLOW OR FLOW REQUIREMENTS ARE IN THE ORDINANCE.
SO THEY ARE IMPROVING, THEY'RE DOING THE STREAM BANK RESTORATION ACROSS GREENWOOD AVENUE.
UM, AND THAT IS, UM, IT WAS THE GSK BASIN, WHICH IS GOING TO BE ENHANCED, IS THE
[00:40:01]
TOWNSHIP IS REQUIRED TO, UM, DO IMPROVEMENTS AND OFFSET IT.THAT'S WHAT THE MS FOUR PROGRAM WAS IMPLEMENTED FOR.
SO YOU DON'T HAVE A CHOICE IN THAT YOU HAVE THAT IT FALLS UNDER THE MPDS PERMIT.
UM, YOU HAVE YOUR MPDS PERMIT AS THE MUNICIPALITY, AND IT CONTROLS THE PUBLIC CONVEYANCE SYSTEMS. SO THAT COULD BE STREETS AND GUTTERS, BUT AS SOON AS IT GETS INTO YOUR OWN STORM SEWER, AND THEN GOES INTO ONE OF THESE IMPAIRED CREEK, NOW YOU'RE DOING THE MS FOR REPORTING.
AND THIS HAS BEEN GOING ON SINCE 2004 AND 2004 IS WHEN YOU ADOPTED YOUR CHAPTER ONE 50 STORMWATER MANAGEMENT SECTION OF THE ORDINANCE THAT WAS BASED OFF OF ONE OF THE COOKIE CUTTER TEMPLATE ORDINANCES THAT DEP CREATED, UM, WHICH YOU'LL SEE IN A LOT OF OTHER PLACES, YOU CAN'T TAKE ANYTHING OUT OF THE DEP COOKIE CUTTER ORDINANCE, BUT YOU CAN MAKE IT MORE ONEROUS, WHICH YOU CHOSE TO DO WITH THE CHAPTER 1 0 5.
AND MAYBE THAT'S NOT THE RIGHT TERM.
YOU DIDN'T MAKE IT MORE ONEROUS, BUT INSTEAD OF JUST ADOPTING THE DEP COOKIE CUTTER, YOU PUT ALL OF YOUR STORMWATER DESIGN REQUIREMENTS INTO IT.
SO THE P THE M PROGRAM DID THE GENERAL PROGRAM FOR DEP IT'S UP FOR RENEWAL.
SO THERE IS A NEW COOKIE CUTTER TEMPLATE OF THE MS FOR ORDINANCE, WHICH IS REQUIRED TO BE ADOPTED, UM, LATER THIS YEAR BY SEPTEMBER 20TH, 2022.
SO WE'RE GOING TO DEFINITELY BE TALKING ABOUT THIS NOW IN THAT ORDINANCE, ALL WE HAVE TO DO IS UPDATE THE CHAPTER 1 0 5 VERBIAGE TO MAKE SURE IT'S CONSISTENT WITH THE NEW ORDINANCE IN THE NEW COOKIE CUTTER.
THERE IS ACTUALLY A RIPARIAN BUFFER SECTION IN THERE, BUT DEP STRONGLY ENCOURAGES IT, BUT IT IS NOT A REQUIRED SECTION FOR YOU TO PUT IN.
THAT'S WHY RIPARIAN BUFFER IS STILL A DISCUSSION THAT WE'RE HAVING.
AND BY SEPTEMBER 30TH, WELL, PRIOR TO THAT, BECAUSE IT HAS TO BE ADOPTED BY SEPTEMBER 30TH, WE'LL NEED TO MAKE SOME DECISIONS, WHETHER YOU WANT TO INCLUDE THAT OPTIONAL SECTION OR NOT.
AND IF YOU DO, HOW INVOLVED DO YOU WANT IT TO BE THE ORDER? THIS GETS A LITTLE TECHNICAL, IT GETS A LOT OF TECHNICAL.
AND I CAN'T SAY THAT I REALLY WE COULD ASK QUESTIONS, I GUESS, BUT I MEAN, I, WE'RE NEVER, I DON'T THINK, AND PLEASE JUMP IN YOUR GUYS, BUT WE'RE NEVER GOING TO HAVE THAT KIND OF EXPERTISE THAT YOU JUST RATTLE OFF ANY OF US.
I DON'T THINK THEY'RE EVER GOING TO KNOW ALL THOSE.
IT'S A LITTLE BIT MORE, JUST AN AWARENESS.
WE HAVE A MUNICIPAL AUTHORITY REPRESENTED BY MRS. LAPINSKI HERE TONIGHT THAT, UM, THEY ARE MORE IN CHARGE OF THAT ORDINANCE.
IT'S LIKE, IF YOU LOOK AT WHAT YOU'RE IN CHARGE OF, YOU'RE IN CHARGE OF THIS HOW-TO AND THE ZONING ORDINANCE, AND THOSE ARE THE, WHAT YOU ENFORCE, BUT THERE'S OBVIOUSLY SOME OVERLAP WITH THE PS4, WITH OTHER PORTIONS OF THE TOWNSHIP CODE.
THIS IS CHAPTER, IS IT 1 0 5 OR ONE 50? ONE OF THEM? ONE 50.
SO TECHNICALLY YOU DON'T REALLY THAT DOESN'T COME UP FOR YOU AS MUCH AS IT COMES UP FOR DEVELOPMENT, OTHERWISE DURING THE PROCESS, BUT IT'S SOMETHING THAT WE WANT TO MAKE YOU AWARE OF.
AND IT'S SOMETHING THAT I THINK THAT WE WANT TO TRY TO, AS MUCH AS WE W IT'S EASY TO ADOPT THE COOKIE CUTTER ORDINANCE, WE WANT TO HAVE A LITTLE BIT MORE OF A HOLISTIC VIEW OF IT.
WHAT DOES IT MEAN FOR RIPARIAN BUFFER? WHAT DOES IT MEAN FOR OTHER STORM WATER CONTROLS? BECAUSE STORMWATER IS GOING TO BE A HUGE THING FOR THIS TOWNSHIP OVER THE NEXT 20 YEARS OR SO.
IT'S JUST THE STATE AND THE FEDS ARE, ARE STOMPING DOWN ON US AND SAYING, HERE, YOU NEED TO FIX THAT.
AND IT'S, IT'S KIND OF AN UNFUNDED MANDATE.
AND THEY'RE SAYING, HERE'S HOW YOU, THIS IS WHAT YOU NEED TO FIX.
AND WE'RE NOT SURE HOW YOU'RE GOING TO DO IT, BUT YOU GOTTA, YOU GOTTA, YOU GOTTA CROSS THE FINISH LINE AND BE DONE WITH IT.
BY THE TIME WE TELL YOU TO BE DONE WITH IT.
AND SO WE'RE TRYING TO BRING EVERYBODY INTO IT.
SO WE HAVE A BETTER UNDERSTANDING OF IT.
AND I, AND I'M NOT, I, I LOVE THAT.
I'M JUST SAYING THAT FOR US TO MAKE A LOT OF RECOMMENDATIONS TO YOU IS GOING TO BE TOUGH.
I MEAN, WE'RE GOING TO CERTAINLY RELY ON YOU AND NOT LESS.
WHAT IS THE GOOD, THE GOOD WORDING TO PUT IT IN THIS ONE 50 THING THAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THAT'S COMING UP WELL, AND I'D LIKE TO HEAR YOUR OPINIONS.
IT'S NOT NECESSARILY DIRECTIVE, BUT OPINIONS.
WHEN YOU ASK ME QUESTIONS, THAT'S GOING TO HELP ME TAILOR THE ORDINANCE.
SO WHEN A DEVELOPER COMES IN, WHETHER IT'S ONE LOT, OR IT'S 150, HOW ARE WE GOING TO MAKE THIS WORK FOR YOU OF WHAT YOU WANT TO SEE IN FUTURE DEVELOPMENT, BUT IT'S WRITTEN IN THE CODE ALREADY.
WELL, WE'LL DO THE BEST WE CAN, I GUESS.
[00:45:11]
W W W RIGHT NOW WE DON'T HAVE THE, THEY PROBABLY CAN'T HEAR YOU, WHICH IS IRONIC BECAUSE YOU'RE ALWAYS THE ONE, UM, THE RECORDING, UM, THE, THE QUESTION IS, YOU KNOW, DO THE EXISTING BUFFERS GET PROTECTED BY THIS ORDINANCE? WE DON'T HAVE ANY, IF A DEVELOPMENT CAME IN TODAY, THERE'S NO REQUIREMENT TO A DEVELOPER COULD COME IN AND CLEAR CUT THE STREAM BANK.SO THAT MOST OF THE BUFFERS IN THE TOWNSHIP ORDINANCE ARE GOING TO BE BETWEEN AN INDUSTRIAL PROPERTY AND A RESIDENTIAL PROPERTY OR COMMERCIAL PROPERTY AND RESIDENTIAL PROPERTY.
THOSE ARE PART OF, LET'S SAY IT'S, UM, OAK SHOPPING CENTER WHERE WENDY'S AND WILDLIFE IS.
SO THEY HAVE A BUFFER IN THE BACK THERE, A DEVELOPER COULDN'T GO IN THERE AND TAKE THOSE TREES DOWN.
IN 15 YEARS, THOSE TREES HAVE TO STAY THERE.
PART OF THE LAND DEVELOPMENT, UH, OTHER THAN REQUIRE, YES, WE HAVE NEVER WE'VE.
WE, WE BROUGHT FORWARD ONE ORDINANCE ABOUT FIVE OR SIX YEARS AGO FOR BURYING BUFFERS.
IT DIDN'T GET VERY FAR, BUT IT'S SOMETHING WE'RE REALLY LOOKING AT.
CAUSE IT DOES HELP WITH THE PROPERTIES.
IT SORT OF STEMS FROM THE PROPERTIES.
WE'RE GOING TO BE ACQUIRING, KNOCK ON WOOD DOWN, ALONG THE CANAL.
SO WE WANT TO HAVE A RIPARIAN BUFFER REQUIREMENT SET, WATERCOURSES LAKES, PONDS, MR. GROUP HAS INTERMITTENT STREAM IN HIS BACKYARD.
AND I DON'T KNOW IF HE ACTUALLY HAS, WE HAVE A WORDPLAY THAT THE RIPARIAN BUFFER, ISN'T A REFERENCE TO A BUFFER FROM THE NEIGHBOR.
IT'S, YOU'RE BUFFERING THE, THE WATER FROM POLLUTANTS THROUGH THE VEGETATION.
SO IT'S TWO DIFFERENT USES OF, AND I'M GOING TO TOUCH ON THE CONSERVATION DISTRICT.
SO BACK IN THE ZONING DISCUSSION, THE CONSERVATION DISTRICT WAS GETTING ME TO SAY, JUST DELAYED, MOVED IN THE TIMELINE.
INSTEAD OF DOING IT WITH ZONING HEARING BOARD, THEY'RE GOING TO DO IT ALL THE WAY BACK HERE WITH LAND DEVELOPMENT AND THAT DOESN'T CHANGE.
SO IN ORDER FOR THEM TO GET THAT MPDS PERMIT FOR LAND DEVELOPMENT, THEY HAVE TO MEET THE CERTAIN REQUIREMENTS FOR PEAK FLOW VOLUME, WATER QUALITY.
NONE OF THAT IS CHANGING THAT'S WHAT'S REQUIRED FOR THE MPDS PERMIT, WHAT THIS STREAM BANK RESTORATION PORTION THAT'S BEING DONE AT GREENWOOD AVENUE FOR THIS DIRECTIVE THAT YOU'VE BEEN GIVEN WITH NO FUNDS TO COMPENSATE THE POLLUTANTS IN YOUR MUNICIPALITY, THE GREENWOOD APP STREAM BANK RESTORATION IS BEING DONE.
WHEN YOU DO THAT OVER AND ABOVE THE MPDS PERMIT.
NOW THE MUNICIPALITY CAN WRITE THAT INTO THEIR MS. FOUR REPORT AND SAY, WE ARE COMPENSATING FOR THIS OTHER DEVELOPMENT.
SO THIS IS GIVING THE OPPORTUNITY FOR IF THIS WAS IN PLACE, WHEN FULL, WHEN TOLL FOLEY CAME IN, THEN YOU WOULD BE ABLE TO SAY, OKAY, I WANT YOU TO DO STREAM BANK RESTORATION FOR THIS MANY FEET, THIS MUCH WIDTH, WHATEVER THAT MAY BE.
AND THAT CAN BE ON A CASE BY CASE BASIS, BECAUSE WE'RE NOT TRYING TO MAKE THIS 200 FEET WIDE.
YOU KNOW, WE'RE NOT TRYING TO LIMIT THE, ALL THE DEVELOPMENT, BUT IF WE CAN GET THOSE DEVELOPERS TO SUPPLEMENT VEGETATION, TO GET IN THERE, CLEAN OUT THEIR NON INVASIVES, RIGHT TO THE OTHER VEGETATION THRIVES.
NOW THE MUNICIPALITY IS GOING TO BE ABLE TO TAKE THAT CREDIT BECAUSE IT'S OVER AND ABOVE THE NPDS PERMIT FROM THE PEAK FLOW AND VOLUME REQUIREMENTS THAT ARE ALREADY IN EXISTENCE.
WELL, I GET MY, I THINK MY POINT IS THAT WE'RE GOING TO NEED YOUR HELP IN GUIDING US THROUGH IT.
WE'LL CERTAINLY ASK QUESTIONS.
WE'RE NOT AFRAID TO ASK QUESTIONS, BUT I STILL THINK WE'RE GOING TO NEED YOUR GUIDANCE TO SAY, OKAY, THAT, THAT THAT'S A GOOD POINT.
OR THAT'S SOMETHING THAT I CAN THINK ABOUT OR WHATEVER, BECAUSE I STILL THINK WE'RE GOING TO NEED YOUR HELP.
AND, YOU KNOW, I THINK EVERYBODY'S IN AGREEMENT THAT, THAT THAT'S A GOOD PRO YOU KNOW, IT'S A GOOD PLAN.
EVERYBODY WANTS TO PROTECT THAT KIND OF, WELL, I THINK THAT'S THE FIRST STEP, RIGHT? BECAUSE I DON'T WANT TO, YOU KNOW, PROCEED DOWN THE ROAD BAR AND YOU SAY, OH, NOPE, WE'RE NOT INTERESTED IN THAT.
YOU KNOW, WE'RE JUST GOING TO DO THE MINIMUM, MS. FOUR REQUIREMENTS SOME OTHER WAY, NOT, UH, NOT IN THIS FASHION.
UM, IT MAKES IT DIFFICULT BECAUSE
[00:50:01]
THIS IS A GOOD ONE.AND I JUST SPOKE TO EVERYBODY AND I DON'T MEAN TO DO THAT.
YOU GUYS PLEASE SPEAK UP, BUT I WOULD THINK THAT, THAT THIS, THIS PLAN IS A GOOD PLAN THAT WE SHOULD TRY TO ADOPT AND TRY TO HOW IT FITS INTO OUR TOWNSHIP, BUT WE'RE SHOWING A NEED YOUR GUIDANCE, BUT WHAT DO YOU GUYS THINK? I THINK, I THINK IT'S SOMETHING WE'RE FOR, RIGHT.
I, YOU KNOW, EVERYBODY'S FOR WATER SAFETY AND CONSERVATION AND ABSOLUTE CLEANLINESS AND ALL THIS STUFF THAT, YOU KNOW, WE'RE ALL FOR.
THE ONLY PLACES WOULD LOVE TO HAVE THE PROBLEMS WITH THE WATER THAT WE HAVE, I GUESS, A MINUS EITHER.
SO, UH, BUT PLEASE, I THINK WE'LL BE ASKING YOU QUESTIONS.
AND, AND HOPEFULLY THAT HELPS YOU UNDERSTAND WHERE WE'RE TRYING TO GET TO, WHICH IS A GOOD PLACE.
I THINK, I THINK WE WANT TO DO IT RIGHT.
AND WE WANT TO MAKE IT LONG LASTING AND YOU KNOW, AND WORK.
SPEAKING OF THE EAC TO SORT OF TRANSITION A LITTLE BIT, UM, TOM DID MENTION THAT HE WOULD BE WILLING TO SERVE.
IF THERE'S ANYBODY ELSE THAT'S WILLING TO SERVE, WE CAN HAVE AN ARM WRESTLING MATCH.
UM, WE WILL, UM, I CAN SUBMIT WHOEVER WOULD LIKE TO BE ON THE BOARD AND EVEN IF MORE THAN ONE PERSON WOULD LIKE TO BE ON THE BOARD, THERE ARE FIVE SPOTS.
UM, I CAN SUBMIT THE NAMES OF THE BOARD OF SUPERVISORS AND IT'S ULTIMATELY THEIR CALL.
UM, I DID SEND AROUND THE EMAIL THOMASVILLE ONE THAT RESPONDED, WHICH I EXPECTED.
I DIDN'T EXPECT ANYBODY TO RESPOND HONESTLY.
BUT, UM, IF THERE'S, YOU KNOW, IF SOMEBODY IS INTERESTED, JUST LET ME KNOW AND WE CAN GIVE YOUR NAME AND SUPERVISORS AND THEY'LL MAKE THE DECISION WHEN THEY NOMINATE, WHEN THEY PUT THE COMMITTEE TOGETHER.
UH, THAT'S ALL I HAVE IN TERMS OF ORDINANCES.
SO THAT, THAT FULFILLS THE AGENDA FOR TODAY.
[FUTURE AGENDA ITEMS FOR DISCUSSION]
WHAT, UH, WHAT, WHEN DO, DO WE NEED TO MEET ON THE, UH, WOULD THAT BE THE 20TH? THE NEXT MEANS THE 20TH.AND THEN THE FIRST MEETING IN MAY, THE FOURTH IS THE FOURTH.
WE DON'T HAVE MUCH HANGING OUT THERE RIGHT NOW.
UM, I THINK WE DON'T HAVE TO, WE DON'T NEED TO MEET ON THE 20TH.
WE CAN DECIDE ON THE FOURTH VIA EMAIL.
UM, RIGHT NOW WE'RE STILL WAITING ON TOLL FOLEY'S REVISE PLAN.
WE HAVEN'T RECEIVED ANYTHING FROM THEM.
UH, WE'RE STILL WAITING ON AUTO ZONE.
WE'RE STILL WAITING ON AMELIA STREET.
WE'RE STILL WAITING ON, UH, WHAT ARE SOME OF THE OTHER ONES, UH, HOPWOOD.
EVERYTHING THAT'S LISTED AS A, TO BE HEARD IS, UH, WE'RE WAITING ON REVISE PLANS FROM, FROM THE DEVELOPER.
SO, SO, SO AT THIS POINT ON A TWO WEEKS FROM TODAY, THE 20TH WE DON'T REALLY HAVE.
SO CAN I MAKE A RECOMMENDATION THAT WE MOVE THAT MEETING TO THE SICK OR THE FOURTH? I'M SORRY.
WE WENT TO THE 4TH OF MAY AND WE JUST POSTPONE OR CANCEL THAT MEETINGS.
DO WE HAVE TO MAKE A MOTION ON THAT OR IS THAT JUST SOMETHING WE CAN DO? JEFFREY DID I NEED TO MAKE A FORMAL MOTION? OKAY.
SO I'LL TAKE A MOTION THAT WE, UH, UH, CANCEL THE, UH, APRIL 20TH, MOVE EVERYTHING TO THE SIXTH.
I KEEP SAYING A SECOND, UH, ON A FRIDAY.
UM, MOVE IT TO THE 4TH OF MAY.
IF ANYBODY WANTS TO GET IN A SECOND.
BOB HAS MOVED THAT WE MOVE, UH, CANCEL THE 20TH.
WE GOT A SECOND ON THAT MOTION.
WE'LL UH, CANCELED WITH 20TH AND MOVE IT TO THE FOURTH.
WAIT FOR, UH, AND THEN IF THERE'S NOTHING REALLY GOING ON HERE, YOU'LL SEND EMAILS OUT AND WE'LL MAKE A DECISION ON THAT.
SO WITH THAT, UM, ANY OTHER COMMENTS TONIGHT? UM, SO IT SOUNDED LIKE WE ARE GENERALLY IN FAVOR OF THE RIPARIAN BUFFER.
I GUESS THE DEVIL'S IN THE DETAILS CERTAINLY IS OLD.
YOU KNOW, IS IT A HUNDRED FEET WIDE OR IS IT 20 FEET WIDE? SO, I MEAN, WHAT'S THAT, NO, I'M, I'M JUST EXAGGERATING A LITTLE BIT, BUT YOU KNOW WHAT I'M SAYING? RIGHT.
AND AT SOME POINT YOU PUT IT BACK ON THE AGENDA, JACK, AND WE'LL READ THROUGH SOME OF THIS STUFF YOU'VE GIVEN US AND THEN WE'LL PUT IT BACK ON THE AGENDA.
AND I'LL WORK THROUGH SOME, SOME MORE SPECIFIC LANGUAGE.
I REALIZE I'M GOING FROM LIKE AN 80,000 FOOT LEVEL, AND I'M GONNA DROP YOU DOWN TO 10 AND IT'S GONNA BE A LITTLE DIFFICULT.
BUT I THINK THIS GIVES YOU A BIT OF A BACKGROUND SO THAT IF I WANT TO GIVE YOU THE 10,000 FOOT LEVEL, YOU CAN GO, YEAH, I READ THE 50 AND I WANTED IT 50.
YOU KNOW, SOMETHING LIKE THAT.
JEFF, IF YOU COULD JUST SPECIFY TECHNICALLY, I MEAN, WE HAVE DISCUSSIONS ABOUT SUPPORTING OR NOT SUPPORTING AN IDEA, BUT FOR THE PLANNING COMMISSION, WOULD WE BE MAKING A MOTION ULTIMATELY TO AMEND OR ADD AN ORDINANCE? IS THAT WHAT OUR JOB
[00:55:01]
WOULD BE? YES.THAT IS, THAT IS, THAT IS YOUR ROLE.
YOU W ONCE WE SORT OF, WHAT WILL HAPPEN HERE IS WE'LL FORMALIZE THIS LANGUAGE AND WE'LL PUT IT IN A DRAFT FORM FOR YOU AND SAY, HERE'S WHAT WE'D LIKE YOU TO APPROVE.
YOU CAN GO THROUGH THAT AND YOU CAN SAY, WELL, JEFF, YOU MISSED A COMMA.
I WANT IT TO BE A HUNDRED FEET.
YOU'LL MAKE THE DECISION AS A BODY ON WHAT YOU WANT TO MAKE THE RECOMMENDATION TO THE BOARD OF SUPERVISORS.
WE'RE MAKING A RECOMMENDATION, NOT APPROVAL, RIGHT.
RECOMMENDATION TO APPROVE TO THE BOARD OF SUPERVISORS.
WHAT I DO IS I PRESENT YOU SORT OF WITH A TECH, WITH A DRAFT, AND THEN YOU EVALUATE THE DRAFT AND SAY, YOU'RE ON THE RIGHT TRACK.
OR YOU'RE NOT ON THE RIGHT TRACK.
AND COULD AN OPTION B NO ORDINANCE CHANGE, OR DOES THE BOARD OF SUPERVISORS COME BACK AND SAY, WELL, WE WANT TO MOVE FORWARD ON SOME TYPE OF ORDINANCE.
IT'S NO DIFFERENT THAN ANY OTHER, LIKE ANY LAND DEVELOPMENT.
WE CAN MAKE A RECOMMENDATION OR DO NOTHING WITH IT.
AND THEY CAN COME BACK AND SAY, YEAH, WE STILL GOING TO DO THAT.
LIKE IT LIKE A LAND DEVELOPMENT.
SO I HAVE TO MOVE THOSE FORWARD.
IF, IF THIS SORT OF STALLS OUT HERE, THE CHAPTER ONE 50 REVISIONS WILL STILL GO FORWARD BECAUSE WE HAVE TO BECAUSE OF
BUT THE RIPARIAN BUFFER PORTION OF IT MIGHT JUST WALLOW.
ANY OTHER COMMENTS AS WE GO, I'LL TAKE A MOTION TO ADJOURN, ANYTHING FOR THE PUBLIC BEFORE WE GO.
ANY, ANYTHING ELSE? WE'RE GOOD.